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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Trading InJita
Krab Control
#201 - 2013-07-09 11:05:15 UTC
Confirming that you are the authority on what is and is not an exploit. Guys, he says it's an exploit, therefore it's an exploit. Amirite?
Khadi Nakrar
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#202 - 2013-07-09 11:09:09 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Margin trading is not considered an exploit.

However, if you do run into a legitimate exploit in game, feel free to file a support ticked via the F12 menu in game.

Alternatively, if you dislike margin trading and would like to suggest changes, please feel free to speak to the CSM, or post suggestions for changes in the Features & Ideas Discussion Forum.


You forgot to lock the thread m8
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#203 - 2013-07-09 11:23:49 UTC
Khadi Nakrar wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Margin trading is not considered an exploit.

However, if you do run into a legitimate exploit in game, feel free to file a support ticked via the F12 menu in game.

Alternatively, if you dislike margin trading and would like to suggest changes, please feel free to speak to the CSM, or post suggestions for changes in the Features & Ideas Discussion Forum.


You forgot to lock the thread m8


No kidding. I love how there are still 2 pages of this going on after they managed to get a dev post literally telling them in no uncertain terms how thing are.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#204 - 2013-07-09 11:30:49 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Clever use of Margin Trading to set nasty traps for fun, profit and tears is no different to clever use of remote sensor boosting gatecamps to set nasty traps for fun, profit and tears.

Both are a part of what makes EVE great.


Bollocks. If I fly through a gate in low sec or null sec I know I can be attacked. A new player learns that pretty easily and quickly. To avoid a margin scam I have to realize it's possible when I probably don't understand the intricacies of the market to begin with. It's pretty intuitive that if you fly a ship into the wrong place you will be shot. It's not intuitive that if you click a sell button that the next second the money won't be there to complete the sale. I've heard a lot of experienced players rant about getting caught by this. If this "feature" of Eve were put to a yes-or-no vote, I doubt that most players would support it.

Features like this one and the permissiveness toward scamming are parts of the game that the majority of players would very likely vote to get rid of, but somehow that doesn't matter. Whereas in the case of other aspects of the game, the fact that most players want x rather than y is a sign that x should be supported. Doublethink. My greed is good because CCP supports my activities, whereas your greed is bad and causes you to fall for my scams. Meaning I am also virtuous as a scammer since I am teaching you not to be greedy. Hogwash. But that passes for thought in Eve.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#205 - 2013-07-09 11:34:17 UTC
@Ban Bindy.

You first stated that you think it's unfair because newbies can know easily if they go into lowsec that they will be shot at, while the market is more opaque.

Then you said that even experienced people fall for it too...

Then you accuse us of doublethink.

Just sayin'.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2013-07-09 11:42:12 UTC
What dont people understand about Eve.

Margin Trading falls under market PVP imo and seems like CCP's opinion also.

Not knowing the usual price for an item is your weakness here, if you dont know the usual price, there are MANY tools that can help you there from the ingame market history, Eve central, Jitanomic and no end of other ways to find out the usual price!!!

Why all these folks dont use these tools to their advantage ingame and choose to take a totally useless higher moral ground and spit feathers on forums about things is stupid.

Market PVP is as essential to EVE as ship PVP!!! ITs what makes a lot of peoples gaming experience here. Being able to manipulate markets is a huge draw for the number cruncher crowd!!!

Would OP rather have a market like WoW where people buy the cheap stuff and then repost it all day long running to and fro to a mailbox every few minutes???

Exploiting a player in EVE is not the same as finding an exploit in the game!

I propose a sticky called -

"Things In Eve That Are Not Exploits"

1. Margin Trading
2. Bumping
3. Scamming
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#207 - 2013-07-09 11:49:23 UTC
Anyone who falls for margin scam deserves it for being greedy and/or lazy. End of story.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#208 - 2013-07-09 12:18:45 UTC
Rather like naked short selling which brought down a certain US bank which started the crisis. The people who did that have been identified but no action taken against them, so Eve is working like the real world, who would have thought it, lol!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#209 - 2013-07-09 13:43:36 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
These things stick out like pink lighthouses on fire.




LOL

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#210 - 2013-07-09 15:20:37 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The scam requires both the buy order and the sell order. If the buy order was not there people would not buy it in the first place.

As to negative wallet balances, maybe you should tell RMTers that their wallet isn't negative Lol


So now you're claiming that using the Margin trading skill (something that is explicitly legal to use) should be punished the same way as RMT? Oookay...

There are plenty of ways to trick people into buying overpriced goods. The margin trading skill is only one of them. The scam is done once you've bought the overpriced good. That is the point where the scammer has your money and you have a worthless item.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Orbelea
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#211 - 2013-07-09 15:39:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Orbelea
Frying Doom wrote:
The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.

And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.

I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to make money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.
Lol


What bank? What the heck are you on about?

I want to buy an item in RL lets say it is a valuable stamp for a high price, I advertise it on a website/daily paper for weeks then someone calls and say they have what I'm looking for but I tell them I don't have the money anymore as I lost my job, house, car, whatever.

What has the bank got to do with this? I have not made any agreement with anyone to buy the stamp, I have only advertised my intention to buy that item for a said price.


edit :Buy order= advertising not contract
Trading InJita
Krab Control
#212 - 2013-07-09 16:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Trading InJita
Templar Knightsbane wrote:

Would OP rather have a market like WoW where people buy the cheap stuff and then repost it all day long running to and fro to a mailbox every few minutes???


Actually I'm fairly certain you can get in trouble for doing exactly this in WoW. So to answer your question, yes, the op would like a game more like WoW. Maybe he should go play it?

Hilariously enough when I was still young and hadn't found EVE I got rich manipulating the market like this in WoW. My items would literally sell in an hour or so, and I'd just buy more items and relist them again for twice what I paid for them. I wanted a more complex market after doing this and ended up finding EVE in my searches. Haven't played WoW since.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#213 - 2013-07-09 16:16:50 UTC
Trading InJita wrote:
Templar Knightsbane wrote:

Would OP rather have a market like WoW where people buy the cheap stuff and then repost it all day long running to and fro to a mailbox every few minutes???


Actually I'm fairly certain you can get in trouble for doing exactly this in WoW. So to answer your question, yes, the op would like a game more like WoW. Maybe he should go play it?

Hilariously enough when I was still young and hadn't found EVE I got rich manipulating the market like this in WoW. My items would literally sell in an hour or so, and I'd just buy more items and relist them again for twice what I paid for them. I wanted a more complex market after doing this and ended up finding EVE in my searches. Haven't played WoW since.


Yep i am also guilty of the mailbox relisting sessions in WoW, and then also finding Eve and being like, omg, this is a market!!!

DONT TOUCH IT!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#214 - 2013-07-09 16:26:25 UTC
Quote:
Yep i am also guilty of the mailbox relisting sessions in WoW, and then also finding Eve and being like, omg, this is a market!!!

DONT TOUCH IT!


Never really tried to play the market in that game myself, my server's economy was pretty well tightly controlled by the bots. I am thoroughly guilty of mailbox bombing people by sending them a single item a thousand times, until they couldn't use their mailbox. Best part was, that if you got like 6 or 7 people to do it along with you, it wasn't a bannable offense (for some reason).

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ilkahn
Ideal Mechanisms
#215 - 2013-07-09 16:37:36 UTC
I suggest you play the real stock market and you will have a much firmer understanding of why you never trade on margin.
Orbelea
Ember Inc.
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#216 - 2013-07-09 16:48:15 UTC
Dear Eve Players please stop buying overpriced items.

Fixed.

/thread
BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#217 - 2013-07-10 01:01:39 UTC  |  Edited by: BoSau Hotim
Ban Bindy wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Clever use of Margin Trading to set nasty traps for fun, profit and tears is no different to clever use of remote sensor boosting gatecamps to set nasty traps for fun, profit and tears.

Both are a part of what makes EVE great.


Bollocks. If I fly through a gate in low sec or null sec I know I can be attacked. A new player learns that pretty easily and quickly. To avoid a margin scam I have to realize it's possible when I probably don't understand the intricacies of the market to begin with. It's pretty intuitive that if you fly a ship into the wrong place you will be shot. It's not intuitive that if you click a sell button that the next second the money won't be there to complete the sale. I've heard a lot of experienced players rant about getting caught by this. If this "feature" of Eve were put to a yes-or-no vote, I doubt that most players would support it.

Features like this one and the permissiveness toward scamming are parts of the game that the majority of players would very likely vote to get rid of, but somehow that doesn't matter. Whereas in the case of other aspects of the game, the fact that most players want x rather than y is a sign that x should be supported. Doublethink. My greed is good because CCP supports my activities, whereas your greed is bad and causes you to fall for my scams. Meaning I am also virtuous as a scammer since I am teaching you not to be greedy. Hogwash. But that passes for thought in Eve.



Quite amazing.... you being able to know what the majority of players want. Funny, I don't ever remember you putting out a questionnaire to find out these things.

A new player learns quickly about margin trading scams the same way they generally find out that low/null can get them blown up at a gatecamp , the same way the generally find out about the ability of other players to blow their ship up in high sec without Concord stopping it. Etc etc. Then when they find out they are better prepared to live in Eve.

AttentionThe honest truth is that people who fall for margin trading scam are prolly pretty excited to see 'such a great deal' and they don't bother to READ the whole buy order to see what the deal is. THE TRUTH is in the buy order if they bother to read it. So many of you are acting as if the truth isn't even out there for someone to see. Attention

but hey... YAY! let's all vote! and then CCP will change everything and make this a wonderful safe place to live and play!

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#218 - 2013-07-10 01:04:37 UTC
... waits for the part of this thread where we all sit around the campfire, join hands, light a spliff and sing "Kumbaya"... Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#219 - 2013-07-10 01:05:58 UTC
Ilkahn wrote:
I suggest you play the real stock market and you will have a much firmer understanding of why you never trade on margin.
Because…
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#220 - 2013-07-10 01:17:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Felicity Love wrote:
... waits for the part of this thread where we all sit around the campfire, join hands, light a spliff and sing "Kumbaya"... Roll

Puff Puff Pass (two toke taxi), no bogarting allowed.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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