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Why the PVE of the game is so bad?

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Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#21 - 2013-07-09 09:49:15 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:


Introduce sleeper incursions into k space. Randomize incursion ship types and numbers. Allow incursion rats to attack POSes in k space. Allow sleepers to attack POSes in w space.


You know nothing of the peaceful Sleeper people!

Anyway, the PVE sucks because it's not at all the aspect of the game the developers intended to showcase and emphasize, the emergent, PVP, sandboxy-stuff is. If they start putting a lot of development into PVE, people will start getting the idea that it's the point of the game, when it's not.

It also kind of has to suck so ISK will have value and victory/loss have meaning. When I destroy a Code-violator's mackinaw, I want the thought of grinding to replace it to crush his soul. I don't want him to think: "Oh, goodie! I get to run some more awesome missions in Highsec and maybe strike it rich since the loot tables have all been turned upside down."

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Nometh Xergent
#22 - 2013-07-09 09:53:57 UTC
Everything can be fun, depends on how you do it.
Im not speaking from EVE im speaking from life. :)

“I’ve always loathed the necessity of sleep. Like death, it puts even the most powerful men on their backs.”
DSpite Culhach
#23 - 2013-07-09 09:55:17 UTC
Templar Knightsbane wrote:
Antaria T'nar wrote:
i see problems and no solutions

go on, spin us a mechanic that doesnt get boring the 100th time you do it


Sex


Well, in that context, "sex" is a pretty decent Skinners Box - that was not a pun btw - because the reward effect of trying to get your favorite girl - or boy, if that's your thing - into bed is usually worth the amount of work you might have to do.

Running missions is like ... eating Spam because you have no other food available. Will it keep you alive? Sure. Will it get boring fast? Hell yea. After a year of that, anyone offering you a chocolate bar would instantly become your friend.

I once got a Daredevil BPC from from a crappy Hisec Storyline mission and nearly wet my pants, but that was about 8 months of bland rewards. Way too long.

If CCP is of the opinion of "Hisec missions should not pay out more then 50 million an hour" (random number for example) then FINE, but work the RNG so we get a feeling that something is happening. Simply handing out 50 million an hour in similar stuff is just boring, and handing us 200 million after 4 hours of nothing will cause player going into a coma.

IMHO current weird drop mechanics cause "the grind" to feel a lot worse then it actually is. It needs some loving, helped along by player ideas, me thinks.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#24 - 2013-07-09 10:03:22 UTC
It's so in any sandbox game.

I think NPC AI, missions, ratting, plexes and so on need a strong improvement.

However what we call PVE content in a sandbox is not there to make the player live some epic history, it's there as a mere in game resource: to provide materials, ISK, items, and to create competion or cooperation (anyway: interactioons) amongst players around it.

A major tract in a sandbox is that contents are created mostly by the palyers and their interactions. More you push toward premade contents more you raise their standards but also more barrier you need to set to limit the freedom to players interactions and their self created contents.

This is why sanbox games tend to keep premade contents and playable storylines as a mere light framework.
Was the same in Ultima Online.

I think is not even correct for EVE to talk of PVE as "pure" PVE gameplay as well is not correct to talk of "pure" PVP. Those are only label we use in our common speech, but it's just sandbox gameplay, is not "PVE" nor "PVP".

Btw completing an exploration site when someone in the system is hunting you is not boring at all. What many players don't understand is that if someone enter your "PVE" site to chase them he's not "ruining my gameplay"; he is creating content for them. That can be an unpleaseable/harmfull content, ok. But is still a GAME content.
DSpite Culhach
#25 - 2013-07-09 10:09:21 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:


If you're finding missions boring, forget about the isk as in that's just a bonus. If the mission (combat) is boring then likelihood is that it's too easy for you, get a higher level mission or use a smaller ship.

Many people do boring stuff with alts to finance their PvP, but the main reason they find it boring is because they would rather be doing PvP.

Any PvE content will become boring after awhile, someone who can play many hours in a day will get bored a lot faster than someone that only plays a few hours a days.


I was in charge of running the computer store "LAN Party" group for many years. One of the games we played a LOT was Vegas Rainbow 6. Usually TDM multiplayer, then later in the day when people started leaving, coop multiplayer. Years of this never got old, because the AI spawns and pathing varied (barely) enough to catch us with our pants down every so often, in some hilarious way.

EVE Missions don't seem to have any variables of note in missions (other then sometimes your warp in distance changes) so they become repetitive FAR too fast.

Some additional mission parameters - such as when you can kill Scarlet before she gets away, extra timed events, or extra objectives - sprinkled in missions would also go a long way to make us more engaged when we land on grid. Right now all mission runners have a brain script they can run through to finish missions almost blindfolded.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Turelus
Utassi Security
#26 - 2013-07-09 10:13:10 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Turelus wrote:
Because it was all made in 2003 and hasn't had a complete rebuild since. Image the rage from people if CCP actually tried to fix PVE and make it fun, everyone would complain they're "becoming wow" and that "this is a PVP game".


It is a PvP game it has been as far back as I can remember (2005).


And because of that we can only have mind numbing, repetitive PVE? Because to make changes so you can have fun while you make ISK to PVP would ruin everything? (that's the general line of thought of people)

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-07-09 10:16:03 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
[quote=Six Six Six]

Some additional mission parameters - such as when you can kill Scarlet before she gets away, extra timed events, or extra objectives - sprinkled in missions would also go a long way to make us more engaged when we land on grid. Right now all mission runners have a brain script they can run through to finish missions almost blindfolded.



Problem with this is, people would just not do timed missions if there was a real chance of not being able to complete them. The negative effect on your standing for failing a mission is high.

Going by memory and this was a long time ago, think it took about 8 missions just to get back to where I was before after failing a mission. Of course they may have been dependant on the level of the missions.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-07-09 10:44:40 UTC
Sex > PVE
Korotani
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-07-09 11:19:59 UTC
Players love being able to choose the best missions, skipping drone missions etc.

How about adding a bit more choice into missions like some of the epic arcs? For example:


  • Get an offer from the 'Enemy' or another Agent halfway through to tip the mission objectives upside down or go off on another mission completely.
  • Two optional objectives within a mission, of which only one can be completed at the expense of the other (Think saving the Amarr instead of the Minmatar in that mission, I can't remember which one that is).


I think adding more optional objectives would be good, as we're all greedy and want to make the most out of the mission. Keeping it optional would also negate any worries of people skipping missions because of the risk.

I would say that to balance this the objectives should have consequences - you have to sacrifice something to gain another, whether that is failing the mission to get phat loot or screwing one agent over to get some great missions with another.

The optional pocket in AE is one example - you sacrifice a diamond tag and risk your shiny shiny ship for the extra bounties locked away behind the gate. Sure it would require loads of work but everything does doesn't it?

[Addendum]
What would people think of pirates getting bolder and 'attacking' stations? Think Sansha style raids into systems, but with rats outside stations. The guns have been disabled, there's penalties on facilities within the station and the inhabitants are sending out distress signals. Once you've banded together/solo nuked the rats you get to go and find their staging base within the system. That could just be a normal mission when you think about it.

Trust no one. 
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#30 - 2013-07-09 11:21:12 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
Have you actually tried to make isk any other way?

sandbox dude.

saaaandbooooooxxxxx



I kill idiots in Shiny ships for Isk.

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2013-07-09 11:30:51 UTC
If PVE has become boring for you, stop doing it in highsec.

Head on down to lowsec and grab some missions, I guarantee it will be more... engaging.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-07-09 11:34:02 UTC
Onquaber wrote:
Mining, missions, anomalies, all boring activities. I didn't any incursions yet but they seem like more difficult missions and always the same.

You will say its a pvp game, ok. If no one mines, do missions or kill rats there will be no economy so no pvp.

Many people do the boring stuff to finance their pvp.

I've tried FW and it was fun, a pve/pvp mix. But there should be more things to do in high low and null sec.

Why the pve cant be fun?





Fun is subjective.

That said, I suspect the very things that make FW fun would drive half of highsec into unsubbing because being shot at isn't what many dedicated mission runners and miners find to be a fun activity.
John Caligan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-07-09 11:35:36 UTC
In my opinion, the way to make PvE fun is to give it a purpose beyond providing a new-player economy. Something like Incursions could be implemented, but for individual systems. The more pirate bases (that show up as anomalies, and thus do not need to be scanned), the more dangerous the system becomes. For example, random pirate ambushes, pirates attacking stations, pirates sacking gates and initiating gatecamps. And of course, artificial inflation of market prices. If a system gets too pirate-infested, events could be held. Essentially, the Empires saying "There are too many pirates here! We'll give 50 mil to anyone who gets X amount of kills clearing out the system." It could end like Incursions do, as well, with one final massive assault on the main pirate base, which would drop much faction and deadspace goodies.

What do you all think of that?
BURRITO CHUNKS
not-it
#34 - 2013-07-09 11:50:32 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Dynamic content.

There are six (I think) different rat "races" in game. Using the current mission framework, randomize the rat race, ship numbers and types. If recovering an object, randomize which object and room it is contained in.

Introduce sleeper incursions into k space. Randomize incursion ship types and numbers. Allow incursion rats to attack POSes in k space. Allow sleepers to attack POSes in w space.

Remove ore belts and ore anoms completely. They now must be scanned. Increase the variation of ore spawning in all systems.

Make moon goo a finite commodity that respawns after 2-3 weeks after running out. Randomize the spawn forcing more low and null sec dynamics.

Randomize belt rats making belt chaining near impossible.

Add 20-30 more exploration sites with a massively randomized loot spectrum. Randomize whether sites get rats and the composition.

Add more systems that must be discovered, gates built to, planets and moons scanned for resources.

Make newly built gates public or private. Either way, charge a toll to recoup construction costs.

For those concerned about lore, make something up. The game is as weak on story driven lore as all the rest of the PvE.



He wins.
Rengerel en Distel
#35 - 2013-07-09 12:13:03 UTC
The last dev to do anything that related to pve (NPC AI) got shipped to DUST when it was a complete and utter failure requiring more dev attention to fix what wasn't broken back into a state only mildly broken.
The next dev asked for PVE little things that could be changed to make things better, and abandoned the thread a day later.

You can tell by the first pass of the industrial rebalance that if it doesn't involve things blowing up and making e-peen news sites, it really doesn't matter to them.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#36 - 2013-07-09 15:13:46 UTC
I wish devs could explore player created missions. We have a small taste of it with courier contracts. I think there could be a lot of potential in giving players the ability to create agent-style missions. Maybe even include pvp type player missions.

No good deed goes unpunished
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#37 - 2013-07-09 15:29:30 UTC
I like seeing my wallet get bigger, so missions are fun for me.

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Onquaber
Back To High-sec Inc.
#38 - 2013-07-09 17:23:35 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Onquaber wrote:
Mining, missions, anomalies, all boring activities. I didn't any incursions yet but they seem like more difficult missions and always the same.

You will say its a pvp game, ok. If no one mines, do missions or kill rats there will be no economy so no pvp.

Many people do the boring stuff to finance their pvp.

I've tried FW and it was fun, a pve/pvp mix. But there should be more things to do in high low and null sec.

Why the pve cant be fun?





What, specifically, would make pve fun for you?


I was thinking a revamp of the actual npc convoys in High Sec. They Should move through the system (new places), not only stations. You as a pirate could attack them and take their loot, and other pilot side with the npc corporation and protect them. Something like Factional Warfare but in High Sec.

A new type of site could be a non pirate station with npc rats defending it. You could go and blow the station and get their loot, and maybe a pirate npc corporation could pay you isk for doing such activities.

The missions should be less scripted, more dynamic and random. The new behavior of the rats (switch targets) is a very good start.
Onquaber
Back To High-sec Inc.
#39 - 2013-07-09 17:24:39 UTC
John Caligan wrote:
In my opinion, the way to make PvE fun is to give it a purpose beyond providing a new-player economy. Something like Incursions could be implemented, but for individual systems. The more pirate bases (that show up as anomalies, and thus do not need to be scanned), the more dangerous the system becomes. For example, random pirate ambushes, pirates attacking stations, pirates sacking gates and initiating gatecamps. And of course, artificial inflation of market prices. If a system gets too pirate-infested, events could be held. Essentially, the Empires saying "There are too many pirates here! We'll give 50 mil to anyone who gets X amount of kills clearing out the system." It could end like Incursions do, as well, with one final massive assault on the main pirate base, which would drop much faction and deadspace goodies.

What do you all think of that?


I like it very much!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2013-07-09 17:26:19 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
Introduce sleeper incursions into k space. Randomize incursion ship types and numbers. Allow incursion rats to attack POSes in k space. Allow sleepers to attack POSes in w space.

Mandatory PVE is something we need less of in this game, not more.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)