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how to beat tech 2 guns with tech 1?
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Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#41 - 2013-07-08 20:52:28 UTC
Haramir Haleths wrote:
T2 guns are not better then T1 Meta 4 guns. They are cheaper and you can use more specialized ammo.
And mostly its not the weapon who wins the fight. Its your competence and tactics.

Um nope. You obviously aren't too good at pvp and shouldn't be giving advice as indicated by your response here. T2 guns are a lot better than meta 4s.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-07-08 20:59:42 UTC
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Haramir Haleths wrote:
T2 guns are not better then T1 Meta 4 guns. They are cheaper and you can use more specialized ammo.
And mostly its not the weapon who wins the fight. Its your competence and tactics.

Um nope. You obviously aren't too good at pvp and shouldn't be giving advice as indicated by your response here. T2 guns are a lot better than meta 4s.

they do 10% more damage if you have the spec skill at 5, 8% more if at 4 (more realistic approach), together with the ability of using T2 ammo. tracking, range, damage mod (at spec lvl 0), RoF remain the same. T2 guns are harder to fit than meta4 T1 and also eat more cap, which is the counter-balance of it.

in sum, you get at most 10% more damage and ability of using T2 ammo (which can be sometimes situational), by sacrificing some cap stability and fitting stats.

so T2 guns being superior to T1 meta4 is relative.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#43 - 2013-07-08 21:15:29 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Proletariat Tingtango wrote:
jesus christ


do you have any other statements or advice beyond that?

I think he's suggesting you start praying. Blink

Throw yourself on the spears. Eventually, you'll get to teh point where you no longer get an adrenaline surge when dying. then you can start thinking clearly - remebering to overheat. Remembering to to switch from long-range to short range ammo at the right point. Remembering to keep transversal in your favor. Etc. etc. etc.

Clear-headed thinking is in your favor. "Buck fever" will get you sent home with a spanking via pod express. So go get spanked until it's not a novelty any longer, then start thinking as you engage.

getting the rush is always awesome.

the trick is getting the rush and keeping a cool head.

Well, now that dying isn't a big deal any longer, I find that clear-thinking leads to the rush of watching your victims burn under your guns. Which is indeed awesome. Pirate
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-07-08 21:51:38 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Sobaan Tali wrote:
So, this whole "Tech2 is suddenly unfair to us noobs" bull**** must be the new "hot topic", eh?

Try doing what everyone else is doing...training. That seems to work well enough.


I am but half the time it isn't doing any good. I wasn't using rigs so I trained rigs after suggestions on the forum. I lasted 10 seconds more. I train a bit more, my frigate and pod is blown to bits in a gate camp by battlecruisers. I complain about it on the forum. People say I shouldn't play this game. I give up in frustration and go back to mining to rebuild my lost founds.

I try to PvP again and again and each time I just die instantly.


"Well I flew out there in my undergunned fit unrigged spaceship ALONE and can you believe I lost? This game sucks."

Yeah look, we all had to fly the garbage ships before we got to the good stuff. Such is life.
Zimmy Zeta
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-07-08 23:19:03 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

they do 10% more damage if you have the spec skill at 5, 8% more if at 4 (more realistic approach), together with the ability of using T2 ammo. tracking, range, damage mod (at spec lvl 0), RoF remain the same. T2 guns are harder to fit than meta4 T1 and also eat more cap, which is the counter-balance of it.

in sum, you get at most 10% more damage and ability of using T2 ammo (which can be sometimes situational), by sacrificing some cap stability and fitting stats.

so T2 guns being superior to T1 meta4 is relative.


13% more damage with t2 guns is a more realistic figure.
The limiting factor for getting into t2 guns is the relevant gunnery skill to level 5 (in this case: small hybrid turrets 5)- so we can assume that people that cannot use t2 usually have this skill to 4, not 5. So that's 5% less damage.
Specialization skills are usually trained only to level 4 (unless you run out of skills to train or are extremely focused into one ship class), so that would be another 4x2% = 8%.
Adds up to 13%.

I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#46 - 2013-07-09 00:03:15 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Haramir Haleths wrote:
T2 guns are not better then T1 Meta 4 guns. They are cheaper and you can use more specialized ammo.
And mostly its not the weapon who wins the fight. Its your competence and tactics.

Um nope. You obviously aren't too good at pvp and shouldn't be giving advice as indicated by your response here. T2 guns are a lot better than meta 4s.

they do 10% more damage if you have the spec skill at 5, 8% more if at 4 (more realistic approach), together with the ability of using T2 ammo. tracking, range, damage mod (at spec lvl 0), RoF remain the same. T2 guns are harder to fit than meta4 T1 and also eat more cap, which is the counter-balance of it.

in sum, you get at most 10% more damage and ability of using T2 ammo (which can be sometimes situational), by sacrificing some cap stability and fitting stats.

so T2 guns being superior to T1 meta4 is relative.

10% extra damage is a massive advantage in pvp, and that isn't counting for using the specialised high damage ammo. That being said, meta 4 fits can be made to work if you make use of the extra PG and CPU available.

To the OP I would recommend going for ewar such as ecm jammers as it is the most likely tactic to enable an underdog to destroy a more advanced ship. You could also try speed tanking or kiting although that is more difficult to pull off for a new player and will probably take a lot of deaths until you get the hang of it.
Adjorr
A-side Enterprise Inc.
#47 - 2013-07-09 00:32:47 UTC
this game is all about the small percentages of difference, 10 seconds here, 10% more hp there, 10% more damage somewhere, it all adds up to making your ship better. that's why deadspace modules and faction items are so expensive when they only offer marginal improvements over there t2 counterparts, because every little percentage can be the difference between life and death
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-07-09 05:24:59 UTC
Zimmy Zeta wrote:
13% more damage with t2 guns is a more realistic figure.
The limiting factor for getting into t2 guns is the relevant gunnery skill to level 5 (in this case: small hybrid turrets 5)- so we can assume that people that cannot use t2 usually have this skill to 4, not 5. So that's 5% less damage.
Specialization skills are usually trained only to level 4 (unless you run out of skills to train or are extremely focused into one ship class), so that would be another 4x2% = 8%.
Adds up to 13%.


Tiber Ibis wrote:
10% extra damage is a massive advantage in pvp, and that isn't counting for using the specialised high damage ammo. That being said, meta 4 fits can be made to work if you make use of the extra PG and CPU available.

To the OP I would recommend going for ewar such as ecm jammers as it is the most likely tactic to enable an underdog to destroy a more advanced ship. You could also try speed tanking or kiting although that is more difficult to pull off for a new player and will probably take a lot of deaths until you get the hang of it.


realistic stats included, dps advantage in a fight is still relative due to how much variables a confrontation in this game has. it is still possible to win a fight where you don't have the dps advantage.

the only constant of a fight here is the fact that shots will be fired. if that results in either one of the sides to lose, or even escaping the fight with 0 losses and 0 kills, well that's something that you can only determinate when you are already committed.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-07-09 11:01:01 UTC
Adjorr wrote:
this game is all about the small percentages of difference, 10 seconds here, 10% more hp there, 10% more damage somewhere, it all adds up to making your ship better. that's why deadspace modules and faction items are so expensive when they only offer marginal improvements over there t2 counterparts, because every little percentage can be the difference between life and death

The realistic "T2 fit" vs. "T1M0 fit" fight is going to involve a pretty big difference really, not just a matter of margins. If you put a day zero new toon into a noobship, with a T1M0 fit, and then put a bittervet in the same ship with an all T2 fit, the difference will not be just 10%. To start with, every T2 component is by design 20% more effective than its T1M0 variant. All those advantages stack, including the advantage of using T2 ammo, where it's relevant. You also have a character who, because he can even fit an all T2 ship, has maxed out fitting and support skills as well as just those required to equip the gear. The bittervet, with all V skills and all T2 kit, is going to have a ship that does double the damage, at twice the range, with 1/3 more EHP and a 50% speed advantage, compared to the T1M0 noob on his first day. That means the bittervet can dictate range and destroy the noob, without ever taking a scratch. Unless one of these players is very, very bad at EvE, the fight is over before it started.

Between bittervets, it does come down to margins, and even when you have hit all IV on all support and weapon skills, having T2 guns trained, you still are lagging by a significant 10-15% margin in total damage output, and it is going to take you a long time to close that gap by maxing out your support skills. Once you get down to nothing but the weapon spec skills to train, then you're pretty much as good as you ever will get, at least in terms of SP-related performance. But up to that point, the margins can still make or break you in a fight with someone of equal player skill.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-07-09 11:18:02 UTC
If you see a killboard for a new player that is awesome chances are, they are not a new player!!!

T2 Guns are mandatory and you should skill for them before skilling for any T2 hulls!

Head towards a Racial BC @ LVL 5 with a full T2 fitting across the board and you'll soon be pvp'ing on a more even kiel where pilot skills does account for something in your fights!
John Caligan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-07-09 11:23:50 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:


I'm Caldari and so all our combat friagtes don't have drone capacity. Ewar fair might stop them shooting but it also takes up resources for the guns to kill them with. And yes I'm solo PvPing tell me me to join a gang please.

we're talking about frigates here and I'm unwilling to risk my cruiser with only 50m ISK in my wallet.


Consider then using the Corax, or the Kestrel if you don't want to go Destroyers. Whatever you use, it should be able to fit light missile batteries and Ballistic Control Units. Caldari ships excel at being able to outrange their opponents using missiles (at the cost of they can be shot down by Defender missiles, but no-one ever seems to use those), so the best thing to do is fit a ship with launchers (LM Launchers at the Frigate or Destroyer stage. Rockets will not help you if you are in FW fighting Gallente ships.) and also fit a Ballistic Control Unit or two on to increase damage output. Your next priority should be missile skills - Missile Bombardment and Missile Projection are the main ones you want. I believe the skills are about 500K ISK each, though I think that's a massive overestimation on my part. Train each of those to L4, which should take less than a week to get both to L4, and you should see your initial range doubled, to around . When fighting Gallente ships in FW, this should keep you well out of Blaster range, and even out of the range of some hybrid guns (Light Missiles have a range of about 18.5 Kilometers initially, w/o adding skills to the mix). The only ships you will have trouble outranging are ships fitted with Lasers, which are made for long range combat, and other missile boats, which could match and beat your range. Watch out for Cruisers and Battlecruisers.

Caldari ships are made to stay back from the battle lines and rain death from afar. To this end, they're SUPPOSED to work best with an active tank (though my passive-tank Drake gets more resistance to more damage types and keeps me alive longer than my Active Tank Drake did), and missiles set for long-range. Using this, you should be able to go solo against people using faction guns, although if you can, see if you can find someone else in FW using a logistics ship (i.e, an Osprey), that could provide Shield Transfers and also provide other assistance. FW is built so you can go solo or with a team. Don't be afraid to just ask around. Many older players will say things like "if you talk in local, everyone in the system will come and murder you". This is a good idea if you're in lowsec outside of FW space. Generally, if you offer some of the loot in exchange, even non-FW people may come help you, even if it's just for the thrill of battle.
Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-07-09 11:41:41 UTC
Also I find FW it hard for a caldari ship to range tank or outrange an enemy becuase we come into the locations via gates at fixed points so a potential enemy is always going to be too close to you to avoid coming under blaster fire.

one of my other problems is that I'm losing concord standing quite fast, I'm not actually doing FW due to my clan not doing it and often I'm so panicy that the other ship is going to fire first that I lock targets and attack. But in low sec this is considered an offence and I lose security standing.

I don't want to go below 0.0 because that will lock me out of high security systems like Jita and I do like cheap parts.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#53 - 2013-07-09 11:53:13 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Also I find FW it hard for a caldari ship to range tank or outrange an enemy becuase we come into the locations via gates at fixed points so a potential enemy is always going to be too close to you to avoid coming under blaster fire.

one of my other problems is that I'm losing concord standing quite fast, I'm not actually doing FW due to my clan not doing it and often I'm so panicy that the other ship is going to fire first that I lock targets and attack. But in low sec this is considered an offence and I lose security standing.

I don't want to go below 0.0 because that will lock me out of high security systems like Jita and I do like cheap parts.


*facepalm*

Ok, look. If you actually join Faction Warfare, then killing opposing players is not a security loss. They basically count as permanent war targets.

If you really want to PVP, ditch your corp and join a faction warfare corp. The panicing will get better eventually, but the body count will be pretty high before it does, so the best thing to do is to just go out there and get some kills.

Another thing. Friends are overpowered. Especially in FW. Getting into a serious corp that will reimburse frigate losses, teach you proper fitting and skilling, and that goes out there and gets kills, will be invaluable. (for this reason, don't join Minmatar in FW, they don't actually fight, they just hang around and talk ****)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-07-09 11:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Knightsbane
Paul Otichoda wrote:

I don't want to go below 0.0 because that will lock me out of high security systems like Jita and I do like cheap parts.


-2.0 Sec Status is the lockout of 1.0 systems
-2.5 Sec Status is the lockout for 0.9 systems (Jita)

and if you are flying frigates, you will easily be able to fly into and out of Jita without being caught by the Faction Police,

I suggest you take some time to learn the game before coming on here and saying why you cant do this and that, when in fact you so totally can,

Try doing things like warping to the FW gates at range to see if there is anyone there say 30km or whatever you think your optimal is.

Also you can use the D-Scan to look and see if there are people sat at the gate, although granted you wont be able to see cloaked ship if they are cloaked and decloak you have 5 seconds before they can target you which is ample for any frigate to warp out of there.

Ps - It is very hard to keep a healthy sec status while FW PVP'ing, so i suggest you make an alt on your account, one with no skills, or if you like train for a day into a frigate with some nano's and use that to go to Jita to get your mods then contract them over or drop them in a cargo can for your main! Hey cheap mods are always cool!
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#55 - 2013-07-09 12:00:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Also I find FW it hard for a caldari ship to range tank or outrange an enemy becuase we come into the locations via gates at fixed points so a potential enemy is always going to be too close to you to avoid coming under blaster fire.

.


Well then, why don't you be the one waiting at the warpin in a blaster ship for a caldari kiter to come in. Then it will be hard for the other guy and easy for you.
Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-07-09 12:04:09 UTC
Templar Knightsbane wrote:

Also you can use the D-Scan to look and see if there are people sat at the gate, although granted you wont be able to see cloaked ship if they are cloaked and decloak you have 5 seconds before they can target you which is ample for any frigate to warp out of there.


my main problem with gate camps come from jumping through a gate to see 3 or 4 warships on the other side who hit me with a strength 6 webifier so powerful that I can't move in my frigate at all or warp out then destroy me just for existing. I tried the famous cloak/MWD trick on my cloaker salvager one time in Tama and it didn't work. They webbed me and then shot me before I had ever fully decloaked.
Lavititcus
Dark Nexxus
S0ns Of Anarchy
#57 - 2013-07-09 12:06:28 UTC
Honestly OP, my advice at this point is to sit back and train.
Make up a skill plan, I assume you've downloaded such tools as EveMon and EFT? Look around for fits on BattleClinic, find one you want, and download the skill plan for it. Load it into EveMon and train accordingly.
Run some missions, train...
Get your sec status back up (boy you'll need it in pvp), train...
Mine and make you some money, train...
Before you know it, you'll be able to 1)fly a vastly superior fit for the ships you want, 2)have the money to burn away on losing them (which you'll never stop doing no matter how good you are) and 3)have the sec status to throw away learning.
But you're on the right track, fit cheap, loose it... Rinse and repeat. You'll be fine, it just takes practice, preparation, and enough character skill to fit the right tools for the job. :)
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-07-09 12:08:48 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Recently I've been losing battles to enemy tech 1 ships but with tech 2 guns (often faction ammo). While I know I'm probadly doomed in winning such fights I'm still going to ask if its possible to beat these more powerful targets with weaker weapons?

This trend is what made me give up FW, it just makes it impossible to find a fight you can have any real chance in.


It's not just gear, it's skills too.

Was testing some L4s with my Drake, and with the right gear+skills, can tank the incoming damage with it better than a Raven (Drakes are sweet ships). Others mention transversals and such and that's splendid advice, when you have enough skills to defer the damage (and can use rigs with purges or extenders to have the attackers miss more than hit). Like the Moa before it, that tank you can just sit there being scrammed and webbed, but can withstand the damage to kill the attacker before help arrives.

I can do all that in a Drake, a Raven can pewpewpew them faster but a plain sitting duck due to it's huge sig radius (which 3 rigs are wasted in trying to lower).

I don't even have HM or HAMs at level 5 yet (so can't even use T2 weapons), but the other skills at 3 to 4, the damage I can do is enough to take down multiple battleships while tanking them in L4s, which translates to solo PvP can withstand frigate/cruiser/battlecruiser solo damage from them (more than a solo dishes out)...all at a rate if with but a neut (in PvP) can maintain the shields passively and recharge them at over 500 hp/s (in PvE recharge is high enough without a need for a neut. Which is the level you need -- 500+ hp/s to withstand L4s.

It's simply learning what enemy you'll be against and preparing for it, and withstanding what they can dish out, with enough pressure they run from you (where you then web and kill them). Straight pewpewpew = high loss of ships. You have to tank the incoming damage and put enough pressure on your attackers to want to run away (panic mode). That's how you control the situation, and with enough tank that if surprised, can survive it and turn the battle. Those playing group warfare (FW and incursions) can deck out for pure DPS, as Logi 5s will heal them up). Solo, you have to do it all yourself...and it's not just all DPS.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Paul Otichoda
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-07-09 12:15:04 UTC
Lavititcus wrote:

Make up a skill plan, I assume you've downloaded such tools as EveMon and EFT? Look around for fits on BattleClinic, find one


I've got EveMon but I see no use for it. All you can do is put in a API and select virtual skills to train but it doesn't give you any plans to put in and BattleClinic doesn't appear to have an archive of them or anything so really its just a rather pointless item on my hard drive at the moment. I can see the requirement for a certain ship in game much more easily.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#60 - 2013-07-09 13:50:28 UTC
Two words;

"Range Control"

Lets say I am flying a T1 Breacher with all T1 gear. I equip 2 webs, 1 scram, an afterburner and some other thing. I use rockets as my weapon of choice. I attack a Harpy (tech 2 assault frig) with T2 blasters. He pumps out a very very large amount of DPS. No way I could beat him right? Wrong.

Orbit at 8000m and fire. Guess what? Harpy can't leave or get closer because I have 2 webs and a scram on him. He can't hit me either. I am well well well out of his range. Breacher wins. Cue applause.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf