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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Author
Noriko Mai
#161 - 2013-07-08 23:24:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Noriko Mai wrote:
I think it would make sense to change it so you have to cover at least the min buy amount. Thats all.

…which again would only really hurt legitimate traders. Also, the fundamental question remains: why does it need to be changed in any way to begin with?

“Because scams!” is not an answer to that question.

I have a trade char, too. In my opinion it is a broken mechaic if there are orders in the market that are not covered for at least the minimum amount. I never fall for a scan in the market, so thats no point for me. It's my opinion and I can bring no hard facts why it should be like I say. I know "this is eve" "htfu", etc... I think the point for me is, that the market must not be somekind of a gambling place where you never know if not atleast the minimum amount can be sold to a buy order. Again, for me this is no problem at all, but I can fully understand the disappointment of new players that see a buy order, get the stuff and then the buy order disapears while they try fill it.

Nevermind, it's late. Good night everyone.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

CCP Falcon
#162 - 2013-07-08 23:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
Margin trading is not considered an exploit.

However, if you do run into a legitimate exploit in game, feel free to file a support ticked via the F12 menu in game.

Alternatively, if you dislike margin trading and would like to suggest changes, please feel free to speak to the CSM, or post suggestions for changes in the Features & Ideas Discussion Forum.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#163 - 2013-07-08 23:30:31 UTC
Noriko Mai wrote:
In my opinion it is a broken mechaic if there are orders in the market that are not covered for at least the minimum amount.
How so?

Quote:
I think the point for me is, that the market must not be somekind of a gambling place where you never know if not atleast the minimum amount can be sold to a buy order.
…but that's what make markets fun. And again, from the seller's point of view, it's really no different than if someone else sniped the buy order or the buyer cancelled it for whatever reason. Just because an order was there a second ago doesn't mean it'll be there when you click the “sell” button — that's just inherent to how the market works.

Unless it's from an NPC, market orders are not guaranteed (and even then, the price may have changed by the time you try to make a deal due to what other players have done).
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#164 - 2013-07-08 23:38:21 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Margin trading is not considered an exploit.



There you have it folks.

/thread

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.

Frying Doom
#165 - 2013-07-09 00:55:24 UTC
The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.

And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.

I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to make money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.
Lol

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

GreenSeed
#166 - 2013-07-09 01:10:51 UTC
Margin trading is a legitimate tool, it cant even be used to scam. since selling to a buy order with no backing results on your item being returned to you.

how is that a scam? you still get to keep the item...

the point is, you weren't scammed when you couldn't sell the item, you were scammed when you bought it. so, should we make it so its impossible to sell items above median price?

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#167 - 2013-07-09 01:12:41 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.

And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.

I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to lose money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.
Lol

FTFY

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Frying Doom
#168 - 2013-07-09 01:42:25 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.

And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.

I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to lose money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.
Lol

FTFY

My apologies I was referring to the worlds leading scammers, Australian banks for example not US banks.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Freakdevil
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-07-09 02:02:07 UTC
Think of this problem as an advanced form of marketplace PVP. Helps to keep the traders frosty.

Besides traders usually have too much isk anyway. Think of this as the equivalent of the cloak warp trick.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#170 - 2013-07-09 02:10:02 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.


They have done no such thing. You're confusing an offer to treat with a contract.

Quote:
And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.


They are. A failed margin order costs you the broker fees while you receive no goods.

Quote:
I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to make money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.
Lol


Where in this process do you see the banks being involved? Banks are involved in RL margin trading because it involves trading with borrowed money. In EVE, there's no money being borrowed, so no banks involved.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Frying Doom
#171 - 2013-07-09 03:53:53 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
The only think I find broken in all of this is that people have effectively agreed to pay an amount, that they don't actually have.


They have done no such thing. You're confusing an offer to treat with a contract.

Quote:
And the bank doesn't slap them with a huge fee.


They are. A failed margin order costs you the broker fees while you receive no goods.

Quote:
I mean come on a bit of reality here, they should be handed huge bills from the bank and have their trading shut down until they pay the bank.

Lets face it, banks know how to make money and if scamming is acceptable in EvE why wouldn't the banks do it.
Lol


Where in this process do you see the banks being involved? Banks are involved in RL margin trading because it involves trading with borrowed money. In EVE, there's no money being borrowed, so no banks involved.

Yes your wallet balance and transactions are not conducted by a third party at all. Lol

A failed order cost is hardly a cost, as you would still pay it on a successful order.

Hit them with a fine. It would make at least for a funny isk sink.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#172 - 2013-07-09 03:55:25 UTC
Utzam wrote:
BoSau Hotim wrote:

•b. Intentionally creates contracts that cannot be completed through normal game mechanics or abilities.


This makes a remarkably clear case that margin trade scamming is against the rules.

The current system protects those who abuse margin trading by withholding information relating to buy/sell orders. Buy/sell orders should not be special cased in favor of the scammers.

Simple solutions do exist to this problem.


Reread the post. This was talking about CONTRACTS. No mention of buy orders here.

If Margin trading scams were against the rules and considered an exploit then it would CLEARLY state that.

it does not

try again

you 'fair and balanced' people need to leave Eve.. it's not for you.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#173 - 2013-07-09 04:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: BoSau Hotim
Utzam wrote:
An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law.

Buy orders certainly qualify as contracts by any reasonable definition. I wouldn't confine yourself to such a static rule set. Laws change all the time, and it's about time CCP fixed this.



NO. Buy orders are not contracts in EvE. Your layman's legal jargon won't fly here as this is EvE and not some courtroom irl.

It's about time you realize EvE is about pvp in legit scamming also.


...and as CCP Falcon has supported our 'margin trading scam' as NOT AN EXPLOIT as was already clearly pointed out, just because you don't like something in game doesn't mean it's an exploit. I just means you dont' think it's fair and you dont' like it. Does not mean it is an exploit.

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#174 - 2013-07-09 04:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Frying Doom wrote:
Yes your wallet balance and transactions are not conducted by a third party at all. Lol

A failed order cost is hardly a cost, as you would still pay it on a successful order.

Hit them with a fine. It would make at least for a funny isk sink.


No, they're conducted by brokers. Who are paid in fixed fees.

The Broker's fees are a cost in both instances. The failed order fails to provide you with the benefit (the transaction) you paid your broker for.

Again, they are hit with a fine. They do not get the benefit normally received from paying the broker's fees, so those fees are wasted.

Besides that:
1) Nobody (besides the person whose buy order failed) hurt by a failed buy order, so why fine someone for something that doesn't hurt anyone?
2) The character you're suggesting fining is insolvent. They have no ISK to take (otherwise the order would be filled). So how would you fine them?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

BoSau Hotim
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#175 - 2013-07-09 04:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: BoSau Hotim
Rroff wrote:
I have mixed feelings on this, as someone who has been playing eve for quite awhile they are usually painfully obvious to spot... however for a new player its often something they can't anticipate - no amount of careful diligence within the scope of the mechanic (from their perspective) itself reveals the potential flaw there which to me pretty much makes it an exploit.

On the flipside, more by luck than judgement, I've made a fair bit of ISK from either lucky timing or when someones set it up wrong and I happen to already have the item(s) in question.



According to CCP, it is not an exploit.

Check here for definition of scamming and exploit per CCP

Here is part of it:

Exploits

An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss: While in the game, select the "Help" function from your NeoCom. Press the "Petitions" button, then "New Petitions". Select the "exploit" category and press "Ok", then write as detailed a description as you can, including if possible the exact circumstances under which the cheat or exploit can be reproduced, and whether you know of any players who have been taking advantage of it.

My point is: Even though new people may fall for a scam more readily than a more experienced player it still is not considered and exploit by CCP.

There aren't any normal game mechanics that are being bypassed here. The game mechanics are being used to create a scam just as all scamming does basically. There is no bug here to report, or scenario to be reported to the GM's. They already know about it and it is acceptable to CCP, so there is no exploit being used. Blink

I'm not a carebear... I'm a SPACE BARBIE!  Now... where's Ken?

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#176 - 2013-07-09 04:41:15 UTC
if it wasn't for scamming how else could I get rich? Question

Signatures should be used responsibly...

The Marketer
Secure IT
#177 - 2013-07-09 05:30:18 UTC  |  Edited by: The Marketer
There are for sure many items I dont know the regular price. Today I looked at a faction item which has no sell order or contract advertised in Jita local. It only had a single item buy order of 1B. At first I thought it was a margin trading scam like many others. I could have looked at the history to determine if this was the regular price but was too lazy and moved on.

The thing is, the margin trading scam in his current form makes even a decent old char like me to not trust the market. I can imagine what it can do to newbies and I am sure many newbies would even quit EVE after falling for such scam with their hard earned ISK. If I had fallen for such trick back in time when I had my first billion, for sure I would have loose faith in the market and may have quit the game.

In his current form, Margin trading can only benefits scammers and manipulates badly the market. It is a broken mechanic. In real life, such behaviors would result in some sort of punishment. In Eve, the player can exploit it as long as he want.

If CCP still wants to support that broken and useless skill/mechanic, they should make on or more of the next modifications in my opinion:

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.

Margin trading orders should be identified in some way, telling the other player that the order may not go through. This would avoid also the other bad effects of MT with seasoned players for other legitimate products: those buy order that are used to manipulate the market to raise the legitimate buy order who follows it back.

Implement some consequences if you fail to complete a MT order, there are many ways to do this.

This is my opinion and no I havent fall for a MT scam. (English is my second language)

TM
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#178 - 2013-07-09 05:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
The Marketer wrote:

In his current form, Margin trading can only benefits scammers and manipulates badly the market. It is a broken mechanic. In real life, such behaviors would result in some sort of punishment. In Eve, the player can exploit it as long as he want.

Margin trading benefits legitimate traders far more than it benefits scammers, 99% of orders placed using the skill are completely legitimate and probably constitute 90% of the buy orders on the market, the scams are very much in the minority. In real life behaviours such as market manipulation and failing to deliver on a promise are often rewarded by fat bonus's and bailouts, not punishment.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ellie Katelo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-07-09 05:44:46 UTC
This is definitely an exploit and I plan on exploiting it.
The Marketer
Secure IT
#180 - 2013-07-09 05:45:34 UTC
I hear you. I may be wrong but can you also comment on my proposed solution since you seems to know about it?

If a margin trading buy order Minimum trading volume does not even permit any transaction of the amount of ISK currently available in ESCROW, then the order should instantly vanished. That would fix all problems. Easy, logic, you have an order and cant fill the minimum of it, its out. Simple.