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Adios Eve

First post
Author
Slaven
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-07-06 01:38:49 UTC
I have played eve since 2004 and it has been a blast. Unfortunately, I have decided to cancel all 3 of my accounts in protest of the current wardec dynamic. I remember the first time I got blown up... I was so mad... that was when pvp was a new concept for me. PVP is fun when the battles are battles and not exploitation or harassment. This game is pvp... i get it. There is no shortage of pvp in this game and until now I have not had a problem with it but now it is getting to the point that I can't enjoy the game.

So, here are my thoughts from playing this game from near the beginning. This new dynamic is nothing new... Eve has a habit of periodically royally screwing things up. I get it, but the political forces of this game are so entrenched, that I think they sometimes lose sight of what is good for the community as a whole. PvP vs Carebears... blah blah blah. I'm, both but the eve I love let me play eve on MY terms. I had the freedom play how I wanted and now I don't. Today we have griefer corps that have 100+ decs going on at the same time in perpetuity, effectively turning high sec into low sec. This dynamic has ruined the honorable war dec (although I think the concept is good but the implementation has been flawed for a long time) and now it is random and constant. One thing is for sure, there is no shortage of PVP in this game but there is a line that gets crossed and it becomes harassment and exploitation. Now we have boxers, endless war decs and a dev community that refuses to change the gate camping dynamic allowing people to truly explore the beauty of this game--- Its not rocket science.. if CCP wants people to explore and move around they need to metaphorically open the door.

For this reason, I am writing this entry. I have a choice, CCP has a choice, and you the reader, has a choice. My choice is to cancel my 3 accounts and move on for now. Maybe, Ill come back in a year maybe I won't but regardless, CCP is not getting anymore of my money until they decide to represent the whole community.

Thank you for letting me vent my frustration.

PS - I know someone will say join a NPC corp. My response is why should I have to. I want to play on my terms and I want to be a carebear when I want to and play pvp when I want to. I think it is freedom and I should be able to play this game the way I want to as long as I am not cheating or bothering other players.

Slav
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#2 - 2013-07-06 11:08:44 UTC
Sorry to see you go Slaven, but I completely understand your situation.

The war dec system is certainly borked and needs work. Perhaps, since criminals can now bribe their way into CONCORDs good graces, a Corporation/Alliance can bribe CONCORD to invalidate the wardec (ie: fighting will cease after 24 hours notification once the bribe is accepted).

Is it me... or is CONCORD looking more and more corrupt now a days? What?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.

Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#3 - 2013-07-06 13:22:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Quote:
I want to play on my terms and I want to be a carebear when I want to and play pvp when I want to. I think it is freedom and I should be able to play this game the way I want to as long as I am not cheating or bothering other players.

The main attraction for this game is exactly the fact that PvP is not consensual (or rather, that consent is a priori given via participating in the game). Thus, your mentality when approaching this problem is flawed. And essentially, what you are trying to say is that CCP should force other players to play the game the way YOU want.

Those players want to cheat and/or bother you. And they have the right to do that (read the EULA). Thus, its not really CCPs problem, but yours.

So...adapt or un-subscribe, both routes are valid.
None ofthe Above
#4 - 2013-07-06 13:28:34 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
I have a certain amount of sympathy for you, but you seem to be upset about not being able to pound a square peg into a round hole.

As you point out, there is a place for people to play and avoid wardecs such as you describe, NPC corps. You can even just drop to NPC corp to ride out the wardec and return later.

Player run corps are for people that are willing to assume more risks.

Now I grant you the wardec mechanics could use some work, and that's been the topic of quite a few discussions.

Also on the square-peg round-hole side of things, do you realize you posted to CSM section of the forums and addressed CCP? What is CSM supposed to do with that? I am sure on some level they can take your feedback and try to use it to inform their feedback to CCP, but it would have been much better to actually address the CSM if posting here.

Obligatory: Your stuff can I haz?

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-07-06 13:51:53 UTC
if you've played EVE since 2004 then you've played in an era when the wardec system was much looser than it is now. "Alliance P", anyone?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Slaven
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-07-06 16:19:07 UTC
Those players want to cheat and/or bother you. And they have the right to do that (read the EULA). Thus, its not really CCPs problem, but yours.

So...adapt or un-subscribe, both routes are valid.[/quote]

I appreciate your candidness and it is my problem and it is my money. Anyway, you missed my point - Ill spell it out for you - I support the FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for me. I support your FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for you as long as you do not infringe upon another players right to have fun. If CCP wants to cater to you alone that is fine, but I would suspect their rebranding effort will be short lived. This game has survived because of loyal customers like myself and I will take some credit for some of the success this game has had through the years.

Mr. CSM (Malcanis)... I said CCP has done some stupid stuff in the past in my opinion - and I have always hated the war dec mechanics in this game because they are always changing it. Carebares cry a little... pvp cries a little... good grief like a bunch of 13 year old school girls having a pillow fight. Wars should be expensive and painful (aggressors should have a lot of skin in the game) - you know consistent with the other attributes of this game - then again maybe you don't..

Look, I know the trolls are going to come at me on this. I am just one player who pays $120 in subscription fees every 3 month and I would think that CCP in the end, keeps tabs on their subscription how many have left and how many are new. The question is can they hold the volume of subscribers necessary to keep their investment going with out selling their soul- my guess is no.



mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-06 16:26:00 UTC
Slaven wrote:
Anyway, you missed my point - Ill spell it out for you - I support the FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for me. I support your FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for you as long as you do not infringe upon another players right to have fun.


In light of this, I propose that you are and always have been playing the wrong game.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-07-06 18:42:40 UTC
Slaven wrote:
Those players want to cheat and/or bother you. And they have the right to do that (read the EULA). Thus, its not really CCPs problem, but yours.

So...adapt or un-subscribe, both routes are valid.


I appreciate your candidness and it is my problem and it is my money. Anyway, you missed my point - Ill spell it out for you - I support the FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for me. I support your FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for you as long as you do not infringe upon another players right to have fun. If CCP wants to cater to you alone that is fine, but I would suspect their rebranding effort will be short lived. This game has survived because of loyal customers like myself and I will take some credit for some of the success this game has had through the years.

Mr. CSM (Malcanis)... I said CCP has done some stupid stuff in the past in my opinion - and I have always hated the war dec mechanics in this game because they are always changing it. Carebares cry a little... pvp cries a little... good grief like a bunch of 13 year old school girls having a pillow fight. Wars should be expensive and painful (aggressors should have a lot of skin in the game) - you know consistent with the other attributes of this game - then again maybe you don't..

Look, I know the trolls are going to come at me on this. I am just one player who pays $120 in subscription fees every 3 month and I would think that CCP in the end, keeps tabs on their subscription how many have left and how many are new. The question is can they hold the volume of subscribers necessary to keep their investment going with out selling their soul- my guess is no.



[/quote]
rebranding? really? EVE has been made safer if anything, definetly not "catering only to those who want to ruin others play". and no, obviosuly EVE has not survived because of loyal customers like YOU, it has survived because of loyal customers like the other 10,000 vets who, despite mechanics (which were changed for the most part to give MORE safety), kept logging in and living with this "unfair" mechanic, and continuing to prosper despite it.

and you say war should be "expensive and painful", well it can be, fact is though, ALL wars, ingame or in real life, are between a country of significant power, and an opponent they deem to have LESSER power, you dont decalre war for a challenge, you declare war to take/deny resources to the opponent. if you are incapable of defending yourself, the merc-option was introduced for a reason.

fact is, in war, the only person who HAS to lose money is the aggresor, to pay for the declaration, if you dotn want to pay for defence from another, or to figth with yoyur own ships, then stay docked up and live with your choice of cowardice, adn take solace in the fact that you just outted them a couple mil.

(i gues what im trying to say is, no matter what mechanic you change, forcing wars to "have significant investment" involved will ALWAYS be bad, because it will always be balanced into either defenders win 90% of the time because lol-mechanics, or aggressors win 90% of the time because lol-mechanics, curently our wardec system is as good as it will get without a massice change to more game-systems than just the war mechanics alone)
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#9 - 2013-07-06 20:06:14 UTC
Well, the game is built upon the conception that you can fu** others without consequences and for as long as they don't notice that the only ones suffering consequences are them, and it's their fault for choosing to play the game.

Albeit I don't like it (in my game, everyone should be exposed to the same risks), I am reluctantly OK with that. But I also wait for the day this design concept will blow in the face of CCP.

Have a good ride elsewhere, dude.
Slaven
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-07-06 21:30:38 UTC
I appreciate everyone's feedback but this is the last thing I have to say before I retire. The managers, marketers, and developers of this game have mortgages, homes and families to support. Unfortunately for them, they can't PLEX their way out of real life. This game runs on "Real" money; not isk and if your attitude to drive the people who pay to play this game for fun away, the "real" money will stop and this protest will mean nothing. Everyone knows the CSMs are a joke except them. Everyone knows the many toons plex their play time and nobody seems to know that this server, the server we play on, the CCP staff we pay, depend on real money and not isk to survive.

But to each their own, to each the choices they make. I wish for the best for the community and I hope this game stays around for another 10 years.

Slav
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#11 - 2013-07-06 22:48:31 UTC
Slaven wrote:
I appreciate everyone's feedback but this is the last thing I have to say before I retire. The managers, marketers, and developers of this game have mortgages, homes and families to support. Unfortunately for them, they can't PLEX their way out of real life. This game runs on "Real" money; not isk and if your attitude to drive the people who pay to play this game for fun away, the "real" money will stop and this protest will mean nothing. Everyone knows the CSMs are a joke except them. Everyone knows the many toons plex their play time and nobody seems to know that this server, the server we play on, the CCP staff we pay, depend on real money and not isk to survive.

But to each their own, to each the choices they make. I wish for the best for the community and I hope this game stays around for another 10 years.

Slav


And yet EVE's subscriber base is growing.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-07-06 22:49:44 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Well, the game is built upon the conception that you can fu** others without consequences .


I beg your pardon but that's the opposite of the truth.

Oh wait, you mean that CCP won't impose consequences for you?

Well that's still not true.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Indahmawar Fazmarai
#13 - 2013-07-07 08:53:26 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Well, the game is built upon the conception that you can fu** others without consequences .


I beg your pardon but that's the opposite of the truth.

Oh wait, you mean that CCP won't impose consequences for you?

Well that's still not true.


You're just scratching the surface of words. The whole game is built on the premise that, by design, certain behavior will not have consequences.

In my terms, a "consequence" is a "meaningful consequence", and "meaningful" means "something that alters your behavior".

FAI, autopiloting through lowsec haves a consequence -you stop doing it once you lose your first ship. But, by design, destroying the guy who autopilots in lowsec does not have a consequence, otherwise nobody woud do it and by design the game is about doing that kind of thing.

It gets even better when trust is involved. EVE does not provide any way to pay back the one who betrayed your trust -obviously you can't betray his trust nor punish him in any way once he is safely concealed behind a design decission to keep alts anonymous and untraceable. He can keep playing the game with no consequences for his action, by design decission.

That decission is made on the assumption that nobody will ever take consequences out of the game and into RL, despite trust, by its own nature, is a RL concept and not an ingame one.

And that assumpion is gonna be proven wrong sooner or later, the more people play and the longer they play. It may be a case of awoxing, or a corp theft, or a scam, or whatever of the countless mechanics that stem from the design decission that certain uncivil behavior must not have consequences because it is "fun". Someone will take his/her RL feelings to RL and consequences will reach RL. And then, that will be "fun" to see. Straight
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#14 - 2013-07-08 02:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Slaven wrote:
Quote:
Those players want to cheat and/or bother you. And they have the right to do that (read the EULA). Thus, its not really CCPs problem, but yours.

So...adapt or un-subscribe, both routes are valid.


I appreciate your candidness and it is my problem and it is my money. Anyway, you missed my point - Ill spell it out for you - I support the FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for me. I support your FREEDOM to play the game that is most fun for you as long as you do not infringe upon another players right to have fun.


In that case, I think that you were playing the wrong game anyway man. You do understand that what you are trying to say is "its ok to limit the freedom of other players for me to play the game how I like".

Slaven wrote:
Everyone knows the many toons plex their play time and nobody seems to know that this server, the server we play on, the CCP staff we pay, depend on real money and not isk to survive.


CCP prefers players plexing their accounts instead of running a subscription. They are making more money through this. PLEX are added to the game only via a player paying for them.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2013-07-08 13:34:57 UTC
My respect for Malcanis grows every time he opens his mouth.

OP, every action you take in game helps some other players and harms others. You mining for a day causes someone else's Titanium sell order not to sell. You running incursions pumps ISK into the economy causing inflation, possibly making someone unable to afford a PLEX. You suicide ganking a miner might wreck their day but also make the day of someone that builds Hulks and Catalysts and sells both. Etc.

Wardecs are one method among many to undermine your rivals' influence before they undermine yours.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-09 22:51:33 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
My respect for Malcanis grows every time he opens his mouth.

OP, every action you take in game helps some other players and harms others. You mining for a day causes someone else's Titanium sell order not to sell. You running incursions pumps ISK into the economy causing inflation, possibly making someone unable to afford a PLEX. You suicide ganking a miner might wreck their day but also make the day of someone that builds Hulks and Catalysts and sells both. Etc.

Wardecs are one method among many to undermine your rivals' influence before they undermine yours.



I don't think he has a problem with Wardecs, I think he has a problem with how it's implemented. He thinks it needs to be fixed.

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#17 - 2013-07-10 00:08:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Slaven wrote:
This game runs on "Real" money; not isk and if your attitude to drive the people who pay to play this game for fun away, the "real" money will stop and this protest will mean nothing. Everyone knows the CSMs are a joke except them. Everyone knows the many toons plex their play time and nobody seems to know that this server, the server we play on, the CCP staff we pay, depend on real money and not isk to survive.


Every PLEX that is used for game time or exchanged for ingame currency is purchased by players with real life cash, it is also more expensive than a subscription, therefore CCP make more money through a PLEX sale than they do through a credit card subscription, even more so when you take into account the merchant charges of around 2% charged by the credit card companies for processing the payment.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Alpheias
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-07-18 16:58:42 UTC
I cannot help but think this is a attempt of disgusing a whiny complaint from some pubbie. In my mind, it would the credibility enormously if Slaven hadn't biomassed (as he cannot be found ingame) and if his corp & alliance tag wasn't something else on eve-search. imagelink if eve-search updates.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#19 - 2013-08-05 11:11:18 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


And that assumpion is gonna be proven wrong sooner or later, the more people play and the longer they play. It may be a case of awoxing, or a corp theft, or a scam, or whatever of the countless mechanics that stem from the design decission that certain uncivil behavior must not have consequences because it is "fun". Someone will take his/her RL feelings to RL and consequences will reach RL. And then, that will be "fun" to see. Straight


So we should change the game mechanics that make this game unique because some crazy might be playing ?




Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#20 - 2013-08-05 12:20:33 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Well, the game is built upon the conception that you can fu** others without consequences .


I beg your pardon but that's the opposite of the truth.

Oh wait, you mean that CCP won't impose consequences for you?

Well that's still not true.


You're just scratching the surface of words. The whole game is built on the premise that, by design, certain behavior will not have consequences.

In my terms, a "consequence" is a "meaningful consequence", and "meaningful" means "something that alters your behavior".

FAI, autopiloting through lowsec haves a consequence -you stop doing it once you lose your first ship. But, by design, destroying the guy who autopilots in lowsec does not have a consequence, otherwise nobody woud do it and by design the game is about doing that kind of thing.

It gets even better when trust is involved. EVE does not provide any way to pay back the one who betrayed your trust -obviously you can't betray his trust nor punish him in any way once he is safely concealed behind a design decission to keep alts anonymous and untraceable. He can keep playing the game with no consequences for his action, by design decission.

That decission is made on the assumption that nobody will ever take consequences out of the game and into RL, despite trust, by its own nature, is a RL concept and not an ingame one.

And that assumpion is gonna be proven wrong sooner or later, the more people play and the longer they play. It may be a case of awoxing, or a corp theft, or a scam, or whatever of the countless mechanics that stem from the design decission that certain uncivil behavior must not have consequences because it is "fun". Someone will take his/her RL feelings to RL and consequences will reach RL. And then, that will be "fun" to see. Straight


Yes of course it is. You can't seriously be advocating that CCP design the game around psychotics, surely?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

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