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To Active Armor or Passive Shield?
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Blue Absinthe
Wardec U
#1 - 2013-07-07 09:32:50 UTC
For PvEing (a mix of combat exploration sites and missioning) I fly a Myr and will upgarade sometime in the not too distant future to a Ishtar. I'm having real trouble figuring out whether a passive shield or active armor fit is best. Whilst the on paper numbers are better for the passive shield tank they are peak and not applied uniformly across shield HPs (definitely feels weaker in use than the stats would make me believe). I also find it difficult to factor in the signature radius change, looking at the turret damage formulae it seems to make less difference than I thought it would.

Ignoring Angel (favors passive shield) and Blood Raider / Sansha (favors armor) does anyone have any opinion on which is best? Especially looking for feedback from anyone that's done a bit of theory crafting. Anecdotal information is fine, although better if you've tried both systems out (yes I'm aware of ship bonuses etc).
Anna Verhyldvar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-07-07 10:28:23 UTC
If you compare just active shield vs active armor, shield tanking uses up mids while armor tanking uses up lows. As a drone boat, no free mids means you can't fit multiple Omnidirectional Tracking Links, and no free lows means you can't fit multiple DDAs.

The thing about passive shield tank is it uses up mids (for hardeners and shield extenders) AND lows (for Shield Power Relays), and I've seen some passive fits that just fill all the lows on the Ishtar with SPRs, meaning no Drone Damage Amp at all.

I have an armor tanked Ishtar that I use for belt ratting in nullsec, and I have to say that with 3 DDAs and 2 Omnis (note, belt ratting has fairly low tank requirements), I have 750 dps (in a cruiser hull!) out to 42 + 12km with Garde IIs, and with Wardens it's about 450 out to 100 + 30km, far more than I can lock. (Sentry Drone Interfacing V, Drone Interfacing V).

Both methods of tanking work, it just depends on how much tank you need and how much range/dps you're willing to sacrifice for it.
Anna Verhyldvar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-07-07 10:31:33 UTC
I should also add that if CCPs recent change to the Dominix is any indication, then the Ishtar will probably be losing its bonus to medium hybrid turrets, and getting a drone range + tracking bonus, which means that shield tanking will probably be favored since the omnidirectional tracking links will be less necessary
Whitehound
#4 - 2013-07-07 13:54:39 UTC
When you cannot decide on the tank then start with everything else first and do the tank at last. The best option might reveal itself at last.

Think about what drones you want to use. When you choose sentries do you want to use omnis for an extended range and will need some mid-slots for those and thus have only low-slots available to fit an armor tank and damage modules.

If you want to use heavies with blasters, railguns or auto cannons might you want to fit the low-slots with only damage modules and tracking enhancers and use the mids-lots for a shield tank.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2013-07-07 17:20:30 UTC
Sig+speed tank is significant strength of HACs and especially Ishtar, which in practice means that you need less paper tank when going armor.

In seriously neut-heavy plexes passive shield tank would be better, but for everything else I'd go armor.

I've converted my plextar to use 200m medium T2 railguns, which totally surprised me with their effectiveness at both Garde range and close range. Gardes one-shot frigs, rails occasionally too, but usually two-shot. Work well against sentry/missile towers as well. This speeds up completion in frigate-heavy sites.

I would hate to see the gun bonuses go, I fly the Ishtar in PVP as well and there blasters are really important and it would become essentially useless for PVP without the dps they add.

.
Blue Absinthe
Wardec U
#6 - 2013-07-07 20:01:24 UTC
Roime wrote:
Sig+speed tank is significant strength of HACs and especially Ishtar, which in practice means that you need less paper tank when going armor.

In seriously neut-heavy plexes passive shield tank would be better, but for everything else I'd go armor.

I've converted my plextar to use 200m medium T2 railguns, which totally surprised me with their effectiveness at both Garde range and close range. Gardes one-shot frigs, rails occasionally too, but usually two-shot. Work well against sentry/missile towers as well. This speeds up completion in frigate-heavy sites.

I would hate to see the gun bonuses go, I fly the Ishtar in PVP as well and there blasters are really important and it would become essentially useless for PVP without the dps they add.


So conceptually I'd agree with your first point, as in it makes sense to me. The issue I have though is that when I actually back of the envelope some of the math the increase in sig radius between a passive shield and active armor tank seems to make very little difference. The relationship is dependent on the 0.5 to the power of the ratio of turret resolution to signature radius and when you look at the turret resolution of small, medium and large guns then the conclusion seems to be that the difference in sig makes very little difference to the damage you're receiving (on a given ship).

If that's the case then the passive shield tank seems to be a hell of a lot better. That said it's a trade off fitting wise. With the passive shield tank I'm finding I can fit drone damage mods and with the armor tank you can fit omnidirectional trackers.

Maybe I'm missing something though (hence the post).
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-07-07 20:16:13 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Passive shield doesn't hog mids and leave lows, it hog all slots, but lows more than mids. It's all about stacking the SPRs, which go in lows. Extenders is buffer, takes up grid, and doesn't add to regen nearly as much. Maintaining ~60% omni shield resists, drake gets 235 hp/sec peak passive regen, Myrm gets 375 hp/sec peak passive regen, because Myrm has more lows for SPRs.

That said, your cap regen will be horrible with passive shield, and you'll suffer from lack of slots.

Active armor doesn't come anywhere close to 375 hp/sec, but leaves more slots, especially mids.
Whitehound
#8 - 2013-07-07 20:51:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Blue Absinthe wrote:
So conceptually I'd agree with your first point, as in it makes sense to me. The issue I have though is that when I actually back of the envelope some of the math the increase in sig radius between a passive shield and active armor tank seems to make very little difference. The relationship is dependent on the 0.5 to the power of the ratio of turret resolution to signature radius and when you look at the turret resolution of small, medium and large guns then the conclusion seems to be that the difference in sig makes very little difference to the damage you're receiving (on a given ship).

You are right about the signature.

For missiles does the ratio between signature radius and explosion radius build a factor, and for turrets does the ratio between signature radius and weapon resolution build a factor.

A change in the signature radius will directly show in the damage of missiles. With turrets does it show only indirectly.

This is an animated GIF, which shows how tracking, optimal range and falloff shapes a "DPS cake" or "DPS donut" around a ship, assuming it is shooting a moving target and not flying in a straight line. Tracking is easier to comprehend when you think of it as "moving the line between hits and misses". A change in signature radius then means that you can get under the guns of someone's ship more easily, or only that you will take less damage at close ranges.

So when you are not only tanking missile damage and also do not go into close range fights will a change in signature matter little.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2013-07-07 20:56:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Blue Absinthe wrote:

So conceptually I'd agree with your first point, as in it makes sense to me. The issue I have though is that when I actually back of the envelope some of the math the increase in sig radius between a passive shield and active armor tank seems to make very little difference. The relationship is dependent on the 0.5 to the power of the ratio of turret resolution to signature radius and when you look at the turret resolution of small, medium and large guns then the conclusion seems to be that the difference in sig makes very little difference to the damage you're receiving (on a given ship).

If that's the case then the passive shield tank seems to be a hell of a lot better. That said it's a trade off fitting wise. With the passive shield tank I'm finding I can fit drone damage mods and with the armor tank you can fit omnidirectional trackers.

Maybe I'm missing something though (hence the post).


NPC small and medium weapons are mostly irrelevant to a properly fit Ishtar, they don't do any meaningful damage before they pop at range, mostly they do 0 damage before dying.

You're tanking against the missile batteries, tower sentries and battleships. Sig plays a major role in tanking these large weapons. Against large rails (using EFT and all Vs rail Mega to do the math), when both shield and armor Ishtar maintain near maximum transversal, shield version receives almost twice as much damage as the armor version. In practice, since the rats aren'f flying all V Megas, they simply stop hitting you most of the time when you orbit your sentries with AB on.

Quote:
Active armor doesn't come anywhere close to 375 hp/sec, but leaves more slots, especially mids.


[EDIT: you were talking about Myrm, so my reply about the Ishtar is blaablaa]

My RAH/MAAR fit gets 933 hp/s against Serpentis. T1 rigs, Shadow Serp Thermic hardener and energized kinetic plating = cheap. Combined with sig+speed tanking, this means cycling the repper only now and then, making it economical both in terms of cap and nanite paste. I normally reload when killing the last rats before moving on to next room.

If I'd really need a ton of tank, I'd add a Legion alt, Standard Exile and overheat, pushing this rat-specific PVE burst tank to bizarre territory- 3705 hp/s.

Anyway, hp/s isn't a problem in the harder sites, neuts are and the repping amount helps little when they neut through your cap booster cycles. Serp Logistics Outpost part 2, how I hate you.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-07-07 21:06:52 UTC
[Myrmidon, K-space PVE]
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 400
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge M
250mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Tungsten Charge M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Nanobot Accelerator I


Garde II x4
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

529 dps out to 50km
787 hp/s tank against Serps

It's not an Ishtar, but should do for many sites.

.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-07-07 22:29:51 UTC
Roime wrote:
Blue Absinthe wrote:

So conceptually I'd agree with your first point, as in it makes sense to me. The issue I have though is that when I actually back of the envelope some of the math the increase in sig radius between a passive shield and active armor tank seems to make very little difference. The relationship is dependent on the 0.5 to the power of the ratio of turret resolution to signature radius and when you look at the turret resolution of small, medium and large guns then the conclusion seems to be that the difference in sig makes very little difference to the damage you're receiving (on a given ship).

If that's the case then the passive shield tank seems to be a hell of a lot better. That said it's a trade off fitting wise. With the passive shield tank I'm finding I can fit drone damage mods and with the armor tank you can fit omnidirectional trackers.

Maybe I'm missing something though (hence the post).


NPC small and medium weapons are mostly irrelevant to a properly fit Ishtar, they don't do any meaningful damage before they pop at range, mostly they do 0 damage before dying.

You're tanking against the missile batteries, tower sentries and battleships. Sig plays a major role in tanking these large weapons. Against large rails (using EFT and all Vs rail Mega to do the math), when both shield and armor Ishtar maintain near maximum transversal, shield version receives almost twice as much damage as the armor version. In practice, since the rats aren'f flying all V Megas, they simply stop hitting you most of the time when you orbit your sentries with AB on.

Quote:
Active armor doesn't come anywhere close to 375 hp/sec, but leaves more slots, especially mids.


[EDIT: you were talking about Myrm, so my reply about the Ishtar is blaablaa]

My RAH/MAAR fit gets 933 hp/s against Serpentis. T1 rigs, Shadow Serp Thermic hardener and energized kinetic plating = cheap. Combined with sig+speed tanking, this means cycling the repper only now and then, making it economical both in terms of cap and nanite paste. I normally reload when killing the last rats before moving on to next room.

If I'd really need a ton of tank, I'd add a Legion alt, Standard Exile and overheat, pushing this rat-specific PVE burst tank to bizarre territory- 3705 hp/s.

Anyway, hp/s isn't a problem in the harder sites, neuts are and the repping amount helps little when they neut through your cap booster cycles. Serp Logistics Outpost part 2, how I hate you.


You need to realize that "375 hp/sec shield regen" is not the same as "933 dps tank against Serpentis burst." The former is before resists are taken into account, it's ~60% resists, omni, and sustained, instead of for 10 seconds overheated, and costing an arm and leg in paste, in an Ishtar against the highest t2 resist...Roll

Not that you'll need anywhere close to the tank of a passive Myrm, or that the cap penalty and slots taken is worth it. The point is you're comparing apple to orange, and a very small orange at that.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#12 - 2013-07-08 00:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Unless I'm running a Serp 6, I'd prefer to armor tank my Ishtars. If I'm up against Angels, I'd rather not be in an Ishtar in the first place; that's what Gilas are for.

So basically: if you want to passive shield tank most things, get a Gila. If you want to armor tank, use an Ishtar. If you expect huge neut pressure but need obscene therm/kin resists, you're better off in a passive Ishtar.

Edit: more generally, and for reasons already elucidated, I'd rather active tank period. Passive tanks are interesting gimmicks these days; nothing more. With all due respect to Pottsey, the age of passive shields is over.

Now, you could probably theorycraft an interesting active shield Ishtar if you really wanted to. I'm not sure how useful it would be, but I suspect it would perform as well or better than the Gila in Serpentis and Guristas plexes and would certainly outperform an armor Ishtar against Angels. It would also be considerably more expensive than a passive shield variety.
Blue Absinthe
Wardec U
#13 - 2013-07-08 00:24:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Blue Absinthe
sabre906 wrote:
Roime wrote:
....
....


So taking the Mymidon as an example. With all V skills, tech 2 mods with tech 1 rigs, omni tanked for comparion, I get the following:

Passive shield:

- 391 DPS/sec average tank with 2 DDAs
- 25mins of cap if you run everything all the time (in practice the hardener doesn't need to be run most of the time)

Active armor:

- 202 DPS/sec with 1 repper cap stable, 404 with 2 going for 3mins
- 1 DDA and 2 omnis

I just find myself hard pressed to come up with a circumstance where I'd use the armor fit (especially when you consider the shield fit performs pretty much exactly the same with no cap). For reference, and comment, here are the fits:



[Myrmidon, Passive Shield]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I


[Myrmidon, Active Armor]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Drone Navigation Computer II or Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-07-08 01:25:38 UTC
Here's the active vs. passive shield tank script:

if ship = 'Drake', set fit = 'Passive', else set fit = 'Active'

There is no Bob.

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Blue Absinthe
Wardec U
#15 - 2013-07-08 02:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Blue Absinthe
Jack Miton wrote:
Here's the active vs. passive shield tank script:

if ship = 'Drake', set fit = 'Passive', else set fit = 'Active'


Insightful
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2013-07-08 04:23:50 UTC
Sentry ship (that is not a new Domi) without omnis is useless, you lack the range and tracking to kill stuff.

PVE is not about permarunning an omnitank, it's about tanking just enough and killin the stuff you have to as fast as possible. This is especially important in plexing.

.
Whitehound
#17 - 2013-07-08 05:31:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Blue Absinthe wrote:
...
[Myrmidon, Active Armor]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Drone Navigation Computer II or Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
10MN Afterburner II

425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M
425mm AutoCannon II, EMP M

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I

You can drop one Cap Recharger II for a Large Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell (a cap battery) to get more cap and additionally some protection against neuts.

Instead of two EANM II modules and an Anti-Explosive rig, where the later trades speed for a higher resistance of only a single damage type and will actually be bad for the tank when there is no explosive damage, should you use a single EANM II with a Reactive Armor Hardener and a Polycarbon Engine Housing as rig. The Reactive Armor Hardener will shift resistances and the rig will trade total eHP for speed. The rig is better even when it trades armor hit points, because you are active tanking and do not intend to go into hull.

That said, active armor tanks allow for more overheating, because of more active modules, which gives them an edge, but it is also something you do not really want to do in PvE. Passive shield tanks cannot (or hardly) be overheated, because they are passive (with the exception of the hardeners) and are more suitable to PvE.

Also note that your shield tank has got quite an EM hole and does not allow for much mission specific hardening, while with the armor tank you can swap the two EANM IIs to two active hardeners.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#18 - 2013-07-08 13:01:06 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
It's all about stacking the SPRs, which go in lows. Extenders is buffer, takes up grid, and doesn't add to regen nearly as much.


Please do yourself a favor and keep that very 'special' math you invented locked up somewhere.

Which of the two is more effective depends entirely on the size of the shield they are added to, as the extender adds an absolute amount of regen (via shield size) while the SPR adds a percentage. Thus the extender will frequently add more regen than an SPR on top of the added buffer.
Skelee VI
Swamp Panthers
Bog Brotherhood
#19 - 2013-07-08 14:49:52 UTC
passive armor and active shield!
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2013-07-08 15:41:20 UTC
Passive armor tank... slaved Damnation. Just think about it. Shocked
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