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Market Scamming is an Exploit

First post First post
Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2013-07-07 18:42:21 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet.
…except that it doesn't bypass anything. It is working just as it should and there is no exploit.

Quote:
bypassing the in game rule-set for buy orders due to the limitations of the player wallet.
i think i illustrated the exploit quiet well.
No. You didn't illustrate what part of the rule-set is being by-passed or what the supposed exploit is. All you've done so far is illustrate that you are not familiar with what the rule-set is.
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-07-07 18:43:40 UTC
Molic Blackbird wrote:
Working as intended. The game has managed to work just fine with the margin skill in place. If you think it is soooo easy to manipulate the Tritanium market upwards using the margin trade skill, do it yourself and reap the billions upon billions of profit in the process.


that sounds like an interesting enough experiment.
i shall try it.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-07-07 18:49:25 UTC
Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said.
Orbelea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-07-07 18:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Orbelea
Fooling players into thinking items are more valuable than they thought they were is a scam not an exploit, please stop calling it an exploit. Maybe you are just getting confused by their definitions. So to shed some light on the argument:

From wikipedia:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

So tell me where is the bug/glitch?

From Wikipedia:
Scam: A confidence trick (synonyms include confidence scheme and scam) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence.

Now tell me this is not what is happening?
GreenSeed
#45 - 2013-07-07 18:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenSeed
nothing wrong with margin trading, the problem is with people looking at the price of something and assuming "hey, im sure GOD made it like that, how else would that be there, right? its not like the price of something could possibly be something other than the god given, natural price of it, right? im sure no other magical mysterious force can be at play here."

the day people understand that the price tag any item has on the market is just part of makes up the price of that item, margin trading scams will be over. but that would be as bizarre as people realizing that the price on 100% of the stuff we buy IRL is a completely made up number that doesn't reflect costs of production at all, its just what the suckers are willing to pay for it.

how else can you explain why people insist on saying that steve obs was some kind of genius? they got suckered in to pay 1k usd for an item they didn't need, there no way in hell they will admit they been scammed, they better claim it was some genius move.

come to think about it, why don't people make threads listing the name of the character that got them to buy some contract or some crap at 1000x its real value to try to fill a fantasy buy order and say stuff like "omg, this guys is a business genius!"


Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Molic Blackbird wrote:
Working as intended. The game has managed to work just fine with the margin skill in place. If you think it is soooo easy to manipulate the Tritanium market upwards using the margin trade skill, do it yourself and reap the billions upon billions of profit in the process.


that sounds like an interesting enough experiment.
i shall try it.



by all means, do. there's a lot of money to be made out of the uninformed and stupid.
Orbelea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-07-07 18:55:49 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said.


Yes CCP allows scams, get over it. I don't like being scammed either, so I research before I buy.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-07-07 18:58:48 UTC
Orbelea wrote:
Six Six Six wrote:
Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said.


Yes CCP allows scams, get over it. I don't like being scammed either, so I research before I buy.



Yes CCP allows scams, but margin trading is still crap in this game. Btw got nothing to get over as I don't care either way.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-07-07 19:06:35 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Orbelea wrote:
Six Six Six wrote:
Margin trading in this game is crap, CCP allows it. Enough said.


Yes CCP allows scams, get over it. I don't like being scammed either, so I research before I buy.



Yes CCP allows scams, but margin trading is still crap in this game. Btw got nothing to get over as I don't care either way.

It's actually a great skill and mechanic. This one "downside" it has is a non-issue, since it only affects traders who lack both common sense and price knowledge in the item they're trading in. Everyone else can spot this a mile away and isn't affected or it doesn't apply to them, since they buy for need instead of for trading.
Orbelea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2013-07-07 19:09:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Orbelea
Scammers target those who like to make a quick buck, without the inside knowledge of how the market works, thinking they are smart enough to get away with it. They only have themselves to blame. Margin trading is not the problem, people are.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2013-07-07 19:26:50 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It's not an exploit, any more than jump one guy in your gang through a gate, letting the gate campers attack him, and then jumping the rest of your guys through to murder them while they have aggro.

You got owned in market PvP; you can either get better or quit. Whichever, stop complaining that you lost a fight.


The post is not a complaint, and the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet.



Bullshit. You got scammed and you're trying to get it declared an exploit rather than admit you got tricked.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jimmy Morane
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-07-07 19:48:30 UTC
Orbelea wrote:
Margin trading is not the problem, people are.


Yes. In that statement you could replace margin trading with any number of things, and it would hold true.
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-07-07 19:53:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
It's not an exploit, any more than jump one guy in your gang through a gate, letting the gate campers attack him, and then jumping the rest of your guys through to murder them while they have aggro.

You got owned in market PvP; you can either get better or quit. Whichever, stop complaining that you lost a fight.


The post is not a complaint, and the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet.



Bullshit. You got scammed and you're trying to get it declared an exploit rather than admit you got tricked.


nope, never been scammed, mostly because i don't care to talk to people to get scammed. i mine, mission, and basically anything else allowed for a lonewolf to do. And if i get scammed, then that is just the luck of the draw as far as i am concerned. Market PvP is just as valid a method as combat PvP.

what i am declaring an exploit is how using margin trading you can intentionally default yourself with out any real consequence.

Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-07-07 19:57:38 UTC
Orbelea wrote:
Fooling players into thinking items are more valuable than they thought they were is a scam not an exploit, please stop calling it an exploit. Maybe you are just getting confused by their definitions. So to shed some light on the argument:

From wikipedia:
An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or glitches, rates, hit boxes, or speed, etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

So tell me where is the bug/glitch?

From Wikipedia:
Scam: A confidence trick (synonyms include confidence scheme and scam) is an attempt to defraud a person or group after first gaining their confidence.

Now tell me this is not what is happening?


The player wallet is incapable of being pushed into negative values.
Margin trading allows you to place buy orders which exceed your wallet value.
when players attempt to sell to the buy order, it is cancelled due to the buyer not having enough funds in their wallet.

this is an exploit.

The Scam is putting people into this position so they can utilize this exploit.
Orbelea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2013-07-07 20:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Orbelea
Kalliel Egnald wrote:

what i am declaring an exploit is how using margin trading you can intentionally default yourself with out any real consequence.



It does not, it only allows the use to trick other players.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#55 - 2013-07-07 20:09:27 UTC
So, here is what happens:

Player 1 puts up an order for something WAAAAY above market price, for an item which sells 1-2 a day, tops, with a minimum order for 30.

Player 2 comes along "LOL, this guy is an idiot, he wants to pay more than market price....sucker!!"

Player 2 goes off and scurries to the next region, sees some of this item listed cheap..."Hehe, this guy here is just as dumb, he is selling 30 of this item below market price....IDIOT!"

Player 2 comes back to sell the stuff, having now "ripped off" 2 players, or so he thinks....only to find player 1 didnt have enough isk in his wallet, and now Player 2 has 30 of an item which will take him forever to sell.

Quite possibly, he could have considered "If this guy wants the item so much, why didnt he buy out all the ones on the market and save himself money?", at which point, he might have figured..."Because he is trying to make me end up with all his worthless junk", especially when he sees the item listed, with a similar time, or on contracts.

However, he has $$ in his eyes, and thinks he is going to get free isk.

This, as with contract scams is where the problem comes....when someone thinks "LOL, what an idiot, they are selling Zydrine for 20 isk / unit, FREE ISK!!"


The usual use of margin trading, which you seem to think leaves players out of pocket, does no such thing. If I have a buy order in Jita for 10 EANM IIs, and I dont get enough isk into my wallet to fill the order....the person selling to me will just sell to the next buy order instead, as if mine had been filled while they were trying to sell.


Orbelea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-07-07 20:11:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Orbelea
Kalliel Egnald wrote:

Margin trading allows you to place buy orders which exceed your wallet value.


That's the whole purpose of the skill.

Kalliel Egnald wrote:

this is an exploit.

The Scam is putting people into this position so they can utilize this exploit.



I pointed out the difference before, it can either be a scam or an exploit not both.

Edit: If the order did not cancel then you can call it an exploit.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#57 - 2013-07-07 20:12:09 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
what i am declaring an exploit is how using margin trading you can intentionally default yourself with out any real consequence.
…except that it's not an exploit and that there are consequences to not having the ISK to fill your buy order. The margin trading mechanic simply ensures that no-one loses anything in the process.

Quote:
The player wallet is incapable of being pushed into negative values.
Margin trading allows you to place buy orders which exceed your wallet value.
when players attempt to sell to the buy order, it is cancelled due to the buyer not having enough funds in their wallet.

this is an exploit.
No. It's intended game mechanics: if you don't have the money, you don't get the goods. Margin trading does not change this. No mechanics are being bypassed. There is no exploit.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2013-07-07 20:34:04 UTC
This is CCP's incomplete imitation of rl. It offers action, but not consequence. Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than market disruptions. Implementing some kind of "Eve jail" just to imitate rl completely enough to facilitate margin trading is a waste of manhours. Just remove it, and nothing of value will be lost.Roll
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-07-07 20:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
sabre906 wrote:
It offers action, but not consequence.
There's plenty of consequence: you pay the full market fee without getting the full order of goods. If it's a big order (and it often is if you're into really benefiting from the skill), your goods suddenly became a whole lot more expensive.

Quote:
Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than
…the ability to use your ISK more effectively when you're into heavy trading, by not having it all tied up in long-term deals. Since it's designed in such a way that neither party can ever be cheated out of their belongings, it adds a fair bit of value and there's no reason to remove it.

It certainly isn't a skill's fault that some players choose not to research their investments and buy stuff at way above market value.
Orbelea
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2013-07-07 20:40:38 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
This is CCP's incomplete imitation of rl. It offers action, but not consequence. Margin trading adds nothing to a game other than market disruptions. Implementing some kind of "Eve jail" just to imitate rl completely enough to facilitate margin trading is a waste of manhours. Just remove it, and nothing of value will be lost.Roll



This is a whole different point, scamming is allowed by CCP,in RL it's illegal. This is a game that allows scamming, same as chess allows killing pieces on a board without consequence. This has nothing to do with the margin trading skill.