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Market Scamming is an Exploit

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#21 - 2013-07-07 17:41:46 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sorry no. If you wish to invest in something, then you need to gather as much relevant information on the price of said item, before making that investment. Taking a buy order price as the true value for an item, is simply a very bad investment technique and not an exploit.


you only say that because the current instances of this issue occurring are grossly inflated individual items which are hard to come-by or identify.

it is very easy to utilize this exploit to inflate the price of the market with no risk by producing a series of buy orders of competitive price margins across a wide area, none of which can be filled. Although i didn't wish to discuss the capability of using this exploit to litterally destroy the standing market-

Using this ability, i could create artificial demand which can never be filled, thus drastically altering the price of the standing market with absolutely no risk to myself or my wallet.

i could do this by issuing 20-30 individual buy orders across different points in space, Say, Abaddons which have a current buy order value of ~200 million isk and sell of ~210. i can artificially inflate the Abaddon's standing price buy and sell price to 220-230, all with out spending little more then the tax required to issue the buy orders.
It's not an exploit and the fact you find it hard, is simply your problem.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2013-07-07 17:45:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mag's wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
They could negwallet people and give them 30 days before interest starts kicking in in thier negative ISK. Prevent deleting character with a neg wallet just like you can't recycle neg-status character. Anyone using the amrgin trading skill to further thier power on the market would amke thier red isk back easyly withing the 30 period. The current guy abusing a skill to scam people would be stuck with a neg wallet after paying the other dude. People would then stop doing such stunt and the skill would be used the intended way all the time.

That of course, is ONLY if CCP deems a change necessary of course.
No they couldn't neg wallet people, because they did nothing wrong. Are you suggesting this rates the same as RMT?

Also it would be come a great way to make lots of ISK and break the game. Good move.

Also, it would only ever hurt legitimate margin traders since, no, they couldn't make the money back in 30 days since having a negative wallet means you can no longer use the market.

Hurting the wrong people; not particularly affecting the people it's meant to affect; introduces a massive ISK-duping exploit. All that to address something that isn't even a problem to begin with… Lol

Kalliel Egnald wrote:
it is very easy to utilize this exploit to inflate the price of the market with no risk by producing a series of buy orders of competitive price margins across a wide area, none of which can be filled.
No, because since they can't be filled, they don't inflate the price. No sale = no data = no market manipulation. To alter the price, you have to specifically not trade on margin.
Elvis Fett
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-07-07 17:47:12 UTC
Kithran wrote:
So how do you distinguish between someone trying the margin trade scam and someone using margin trading legitimately who simply has had as many sales as they were expecting?


If it is too good to be true it is. Use www.eve-central.com look up item in question, if it sells for 1mil everywhere but the system you are in where it goes for 4bil, it's a scam.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2013-07-07 17:48:43 UTC
yeah so when i was a nublet doing level two missions i saw a margin trading scam in local

i didn't know what it was, of course, but it looked like a really good deal

fortunately i'm not that greedy or stupid so i just went to another trade hub, bought the item for less than a million isk, hauled it back and tried to trade to the buy order

margin scam avoided by using a little common sense

so the idea that margin trade scams target inexperienced pilots is horseshit. they target greedy people who don't think before clicking 'accept'
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-07-07 17:50:29 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
They could negwallet people and give them 30 days before interest starts kicking in in thier negative ISK. Prevent deleting character with a neg wallet just like you can't recycle neg-status character. Anyone using the amrgin trading skill to further thier power on the market would amke thier red isk back easyly withing the 30 period. The current guy abusing a skill to scam people would be stuck with a neg wallet after paying the other dude. People would then stop doing such stunt and the skill would be used the intended way all the time.

That of course, is ONLY if CCP deems a change necessary of course.
No they couldn't neg wallet people, because they did nothing wrong. Are you suggesting this rates the same as RMT?

Also it would be come a great way to make lots of ISK and break the game. Good move.


You neg wallet them just like any company does most of the time. You buy stuff to use and you don't pay it on delivery but usuaslly by the end of that month. You are technically in the negative during that time but you can pay it off later. Most chain selling stuff IRL works on that system. They order X amount of stuff and pay a % as the order is placed and will pay the remaning funds to thier creditors as the term of the contracts stipulate. Any high level amrket player in EVE would be able to work with that with no problem at all because they would make the "missing" isks back in a matter of days if not hours.

Setting it up so it can't generate isk is harder tho I agree. Not sure how a rule could be made on the amrket to prevent that. I wonder if thats the actual reason why it's setup the way it is right now.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#26 - 2013-07-07 17:57:15 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


You neg wallet them just like any company does most of the time. You buy stuff to use and you don't pay it on delivery but usuaslly by the end of that month. You are technically in the negative during that time but you can pay it off later. Most chain selling stuff IRL works on that system. They order X amount of stuff and pay a % as the order is placed and will pay the remaning funds to thier creditors as the term of the contracts stipulate. Any high level amrket player in EVE would be able to work with that with no problem at all because they would make the "missing" isks back in a matter of days if not hours.

Setting it up so it can't generate isk is harder tho I agree. Not sure how a rule could be made on the amrket to prevent that. I wonder if thats the actual reason why it's setup the way it is right now.
You're breaking the game, for something that's not even a problem. At the same time labelling them, as being just as bad as RMTers. Do you even understand the consequences of such a move? Do you even understand how the game affects those with a neg wallet?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-07-07 18:00:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Also, it would only ever hurt legitimate margin traders since, no, they couldn't make the money back in 30 days since having a negative wallet means you can no longer use the market.



This can be made to work by only preventing people who got neg-walleted from using the amrket if it was done by the almighty hand of CCP. But again I agree there is naother hole in the system I proposed for the generating of "dupe ISK". **** it, I'm starting my margin trading alt.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-07-07 18:04:33 UTC
It is pretty easy to see through the scam if you think about it a little before you click "accept"
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-07-07 18:05:07 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sorry no. If you wish to invest in something, then you need to gather as much relevant information on the price of said item, before making that investment. Taking a buy order price as the true value for an item, is simply a very bad investment technique and not an exploit.


you only say that because the current instances of this issue occurring are grossly inflated individual items which are hard to come-by or identify.

it is very easy to utilize this exploit to inflate the price of the market with no risk by producing a series of buy orders of competitive price margins across a wide area, none of which can be filled. Although i didn't wish to discuss the capability of using this exploit to litterally destroy the standing market-

Using this ability, i could create artificial demand which can never be filled, thus drastically altering the price of the standing market with absolutely no risk to myself or my wallet.

i could do this by issuing 20-30 individual buy orders across different points in space, Say, Abaddons which have a current buy order value of ~200 million isk and sell of ~210. i can artificially inflate the Abaddon's standing price buy and sell price to 220-230, all with out spending little more then the tax required to issue the buy orders.
It's not an exploit and the fact you find it hard, is simply your problem.


i have a feeling you are misunderstanding.

I create Market scams of Tritanium at 5.20 isk a unit.
Freighters will purchase lower price isk, raising the average price, as that is what freighters do...
freighters find they are unable to sell the tritanium at 5.20 isk because of exploiting the fact that my wallet can not be pushed into the red.

i have altered the price of tritanium raising it by creating artificial demand.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-07-07 18:08:36 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Sorry no. If you wish to invest in something, then you need to gather as much relevant information on the price of said item, before making that investment. Taking a buy order price as the true value for an item, is simply a very bad investment technique and not an exploit.


you only say that because the current instances of this issue occurring are grossly inflated individual items which are hard to come-by or identify.

it is very easy to utilize this exploit to inflate the price of the market with no risk by producing a series of buy orders of competitive price margins across a wide area, none of which can be filled. Although i didn't wish to discuss the capability of using this exploit to litterally destroy the standing market-

Using this ability, i could create artificial demand which can never be filled, thus drastically altering the price of the standing market with absolutely no risk to myself or my wallet.

i could do this by issuing 20-30 individual buy orders across different points in space, Say, Abaddons which have a current buy order value of ~200 million isk and sell of ~210. i can artificially inflate the Abaddon's standing price buy and sell price to 220-230, all with out spending little more then the tax required to issue the buy orders.
It's not an exploit and the fact you find it hard, is simply your problem.


i have a feeling you are misunderstanding.

I create Market scams of Tritanium at 5.20 isk a unit.
Freighters will purchase lower price isk, raising the average price, as that is what freighters do...
freighters find they are unable to sell the tritanium at 5.20 isk because of exploiting the fact that my wallet can not be pushed into the red.

i have altered the price of tritanium raising it by creating artificial demand.


No you didn't because the trit was bought at market price and will be sold back at market price too. Your order will be ignored by the system as it was never fulfilled. The trit bought to fill your order will be used to fill one with a lower price instead thus keeping the price of trit stable.

You would only affect the price if your order went though and you can't because the system prevent neg-walleting yourself.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2013-07-07 18:08:53 UTC
And again, someone is trying to make the case that players need to be protected from their own stupidity. Oh yes, and arguing that cleverness is an exploit.

An exploit is whatever CCP says it is. CCP says this is not an exploit. End of story.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-07-07 18:15:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
[quote=Kalliel Egnald]
No you didn't because the trit was bought at market price and will be sold back at market price too. Your order will be ignored by the system as it was never fulfilled. The trit bought to fill your order will be used to fill one with a lower price instead thus keeping the price of trit stable.

You would only affect the price if your order went though and you can't because the system prevent neg-walleting yourself.


are you so sure that players would be so willing to sell their assets at a price lower then they bought them at?
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2013-07-07 18:16:38 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And again, someone is trying to make the case that players need to be protected from their own stupidity. Oh yes, and arguing that cleverness is an exploit.

An exploit is whatever CCP says it is. CCP says this is not an exploit. End of story.


how is defaulting because the game refuses to put you in debt 'cleverness' exactly?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#34 - 2013-07-07 18:18:29 UTC
It's not an exploit, any more than jump one guy in your gang through a gate, letting the gate campers attack him, and then jumping the rest of your guys through to murder them while they have aggro.

You got owned in market PvP; you can either get better or quit. Whichever, stop complaining that you lost a fight.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-07-07 18:19:20 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
[quote=Kalliel Egnald]
No you didn't because the trit was bought at market price and will be sold back at market price too. Your order will be ignored by the system as it was never fulfilled. The trit bought to fill your order will be used to fill one with a lower price instead thus keeping the price of trit stable.

You would only affect the price if your order went though and you can't because the system prevent neg-walleting yourself.


are you so sure that players would be so willing to sell their assets at a price lower then they bought them at?


What are you gonna do with the item after you paid for it? Either you sell it back or you use it.

Well maybe you can make a bed out of a pile of trit and sleep on it...
Molic Blackbird
Orion Faction Industries
Orion Consortium
#36 - 2013-07-07 18:20:02 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:


i have a feeling you are misunderstanding.

I create Market scams of Tritanium at 5.20 isk a unit.
Freighters will purchase lower price isk, raising the average price, as that is what freighters do...
freighters find they are unable to sell the tritanium at 5.20 isk because of exploiting the fact that my wallet can not be pushed into the red.

i have altered the price of tritanium raising it by creating artificial demand.


Working as intended. The game has managed to work just fine with the margin skill in place. If you think it is soooo easy to manipulate the Tritanium market upwards using the margin trade skill, do it yourself and reap the billions upon billions of profit in the process.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2013-07-07 18:21:02 UTC
Kalliel Egnald wrote:
are you so sure that players would be so willing to sell their assets at a price lower then they bought them at?
Why would they, when they could just sell it at more than they paid for it…?

…unless they forgot to check the value of the good and overpaid (in which case they'll be willing to since it's the only way to recoup any cash).

Kalliel Egnald wrote:
how is defaulting because the game refuses to put you in debt 'cleverness' exactly?
It's not. Tricking people into buying obviously overpriced goods is the clever part.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#38 - 2013-07-07 18:21:28 UTC
So, we've illustrated how its a scam.

Since not even the OP has attempted to illustrate how its an exploit can we close this rumor thread?

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-07-07 18:32:31 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
It's not an exploit, any more than jump one guy in your gang through a gate, letting the gate campers attack him, and then jumping the rest of your guys through to murder them while they have aggro.

You got owned in market PvP; you can either get better or quit. Whichever, stop complaining that you lost a fight.


The post is not a complaint, and the exploit in question is utilizing something to bypass current in game rule sets on buy orders via the player wallet.
Kalliel Egnald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-07-07 18:37:38 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
So, we've illustrated how its a scam.

Since not even the OP has attempted to illustrate how its an exploit can we close this rumor thread?


bypassing the in game rule-set for buy orders due to the limitations of the player wallet.
i think i illustrated the exploit quiet well.

the argument many of these people are discussing is the severity of said exploit, and most are dismissing it as something that is harmless due to its limited prevalence currently in the game.