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At what point is something an Exploit and not game Mechanics ? Bumped for 60 Minutes

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1041 - 2013-07-07 05:51:11 UTC
PeHD0M wrote:
This trick bypass the rules of hi-sec where you can't warp scramble the neutral ship without consequences. Doesn't really matter what it is now, but CCP will be forced to change it, if a large player base in hi-sec will be effected by this. Do you remember the nanonerf Lol

Already been discussed to death in the C&P forums, CCP deemed their decision on bumping important enough to make it a sticky.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1042 - 2013-07-07 06:11:21 UTC
I would like to point out that a freighter load of trit is not a gank worthy target.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#1043 - 2013-07-07 06:35:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I would like to point out that a freighter load of trit is not a gank worthy target.


You forget that these are members of the "time I spend is free" crowd, so the fact that you can, theoretically kill a freighter for under 100m is magically relevant to them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1044 - 2013-07-07 07:05:41 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I would like to point out that a freighter load of trit is not a gank worthy target.


You forget that these are members of the "time I spend is free" crowd, so the fact that you can, theoretically kill a freighter for under 100m is magically relevant to them.

Yep some people just can't get their heads round the concept "time is money".

Meanwhile I'm taking bets on the contents of the next circular post by either the OPs alt or the "expert data miner" idiot.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#1045 - 2013-07-07 09:17:55 UTC
S Byerley you have STILL not told me how it would be possible to differentiate between the two situations I proposed about 15 pages ago.

You continually ignore these straight forward situations because you bloody well know what you're saying isn't valid. Your arguments have been utterly shredded, and yet you still persist, simply ignoring the fact that what you've said has been systematically pulled apart
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1046 - 2013-07-07 10:29:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
S Byerley wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit.

Where's the ambiguity?


You're missing the point; people are complaining about the combined tactic - bumping to prevent warp, bumping off grid to delay concord, and aggressing with noob ship to prevent logoff.

Yes, it's mostly avoidable if you pre-emptively bring a webbing ult, but that's not good gameplay; it doesn't make much sense conceptually and requiring two people to do an already boring job isn't desirable. CCP didn't respond to the stupid cost-effectiveness of miner ganking by telling them to mine in high sec with an escort.


Would it make you feel better if I use a Condor instead?

The funny thing about the barge buff is even though CCP gave the ships the capability to have a large amount of EHP, most people still don't make use of this. The average Mackinaw can still be ganked by 2 T2 Catalyst's because yield will ultimately always be more important to the greedy miner (the majority). The exact same thing would happen if CCP were to give freighters the lowslot that you people have been screaming about for a year now. Most freighter pilots wouldn't put in a DC II (because they autopilot), they'd use a cargo expander to make up for the cargo space that had to be taken away to balance the change.

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Mag's
Azn Empire
#1047 - 2013-07-07 10:31:38 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Yet another loophole/exploit closed. Bumping is also not classed as an exploit.


Logoff tactics were never ruled an exploit despite threadnaughts and ganker tears, but they were eventually changed.

Perhaps you can see the similarity?
If you could read I said loophole 'stroke' '/' exploit. Perhaps you could comprehend why I did that?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1048 - 2013-07-07 10:35:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Mag's wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Yet another loophole/exploit closed. Bumping is also not classed as an exploit.


Logoff tactics were never ruled an exploit despite threadnaughts and ganker tears, but they were eventually changed.

Perhaps you can see the similarity?
If you could read I said loophole 'stroke' '/' exploit. Perhaps you could comprehend why I did that?


I wouldn't call it a loophole or an exploit, it was just something people used to their advantage (and why not since it's there?). CCP didn't want people to be able to logoff their ship to avoid a loss. Damn I'll just come out & say it was mainly because of supercaps, but no ship in the game should be exempt from such a change for any reason.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1049 - 2013-07-07 10:41:35 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Mag's wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Yet another loophole/exploit closed. Bumping is also not classed as an exploit.


Logoff tactics were never ruled an exploit despite threadnaughts and ganker tears, but they were eventually changed.

Perhaps you can see the similarity?
If you could read I said loophole 'stroke' '/' exploit. Perhaps you could comprehend why I did that?


I wouldn't call it a loophole or an exploit, it was just something people used to their advantage (and why not since it's there?). CCP didn't want people to be able to logoff their ship to avoid a loss. Damn I'll just come out & say it was mainly because of supercaps, but no ship in the game should be exempt from such a change for any reason.
Well that's why I put both, as it's hard to decide what one would call it. We know people used it and CCP decided they didn't like people doing so, so those 2 terms seem to fit. They stopped what could be considered a loophole/exploit, for want of a better term.

I know it's a hell of a lot better than the others in this thread deciding exploit, when CCP have quite clearly said not.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1050 - 2013-07-07 10:44:56 UTC
Mag's wrote:
I know it's a hell of a lot better than the others in this thread deciding exploit, when CCP have quite clearly said not.


For the average person, research & reading more than a few lines is too hard.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#1051 - 2013-07-07 10:47:31 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I know it's a hell of a lot better than the others in this thread deciding exploit, when CCP have quite clearly said not.


For the average person, research & reading more than a few lines is too hard.
Indeed.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1052 - 2013-07-07 11:12:34 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I know it's a hell of a lot better than the others in this thread deciding exploit, when CCP have quite clearly said not.


For the average person moaning about bumping, research & reading more than a few lines thinking is too hard.

FTFY

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1053 - 2013-07-07 11:17:25 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I know it's a hell of a lot better than the others in this thread deciding exploit, when CCP have quite clearly said not.


For the average person moaning about bumping, research & reading more than a few lines thinking is too hard.

FTFY


I stand by the original statement due to accuracy.

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Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1054 - 2013-07-07 11:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Knightsbane
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Templar Knightsbane wrote:
To be brutal, and with the frieghter pilot knowing that he was going to be ganked, did he even once shout in local that people were going to be getting criminal timers and for everyone to ship into a frig for some free killmails???

I mean even without friends, people like free killmails, this one line in local could have saved the freighter, all i see here is a total lack of pro-activeness on the part of the freighter pilot to avoid this over the course of an hour.

He could have contacted a HS Merc corp and given them a couple of hundred mil for a logi and some frigates to turn up.

He could have gotten alliance mates to come help.


The saddest part is that OP doesn't realise that in many cases we let them go if we fluff the first run and they get help, since it's possible for them to
a) Massively increase our costs
b) Massively increase our effort
c) Prevent any financial gain (from looting)
d) Outright prevent the gank / ensure it's escape

Any and all of the above requires fewer people than we need to make it happen with no interference. However, look at how the OP is conducting himself in this thread - do you think he's of a calibre to achieve any of that?

That's basically the problem here, an unskilled player got beaten within the rules of a videogame, doesn't like it, and is crying about it. It's a bit like playing Risk with your 7 y o nephew and letting him keep America because otherwise he wouldn't play.


I agree. I have ganked in HS before and it is by no means a 100% guaranteed outcome; far from it in fact.

Also the freighter pilot as far as i can gather did manage to log off, if he had thought about his actions for 10 seconds he could have thought, oh, there is a gank squad possibly waiting for me to log back in, they will be there as they are harrassing me (according to the OP) so maybe i should quickly make an alt and shuttle to that system to see if they are still sat at my log off point.

There are soooo many things this guy could have done and didn't.

If he had tried any of these options and been unsuccessful in his endeavour to evade you guys, well, ok i would maybe think hey, he has a point, but even from the viewpoint of being a solo pilot with one active account, there are many things he could have done for 0 isk to not loose his freighter. He didn't it seems do any. He should learn from his mistakes and move on.

Bumping is not the issue here, a complex and wonderful sandbox game that people want to be as rigid as WoW with guaranteed outcomes along with assured safety for their items is the issue, but its a non-issue as this is not what New Eden is about.

Hell. If you can't beat them. Join them. Go buy a Mach and start helping out ganking freighters!!!

Ps - One example i would like to make to the OP is this, the node drop the other night in which 100 TEST alliance carriers got logged off from the mass fight, would it have been a wise move to log back in without checking if there was still a large fleet sat waiting for them??? This is no different to your single freighter logging back in to the gank squad. A rash ill advised uninformed desicion was made and it ended in the loss of your ship the same as it would end for any ship ingame that logs back in when there is a hostile party waiting for them. Learn to use the game to your advantage not whine about it when you make bad moves that give your opponent the upper hand!!!
firepup82
The Inf3cted
Pathog3n
#1055 - 2013-07-07 12:45:17 UTC
Want a quick fix? Especially all u its physics its physics BS it is implement real physics.. and that tells us if a be carenes into a freighter its should have almost no effect due to real world physics a fly " the Machs" cannot bump a semi " the freighter" problem solved and please you who are shouting physics if u have half a brain u know if this was real physics the freighter mach would bounce off the freighter like bowling pins to a 50lb bowling ball
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1056 - 2013-07-07 12:51:34 UTC
firepup82 wrote:
Want a quick fix? Especially all u its physics its physics BS it is implement real physics.. and that tells us if a be carenes into a freighter its should have almost no effect due to real world physics a fly " the Machs" cannot bump a semi " the freighter" problem solved and please you who are shouting physics if u have half a brain u know if this was real physics the freighter mach would bounce off the freighter like bowling pins to a 50lb bowling ball


The mack is almost as big as a freighter.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1057 - 2013-07-07 13:11:05 UTC
firepup82 wrote:
Want a quick fix? Especially all u its physics its physics BS it is implement real physics.. and that tells us if a be carenes into a freighter its should have almost no effect due to real world physics a fly " the Machs" cannot bump a semi " the freighter" problem solved and please you who are shouting physics if u have half a brain u know if this was real physics the freighter mach would bounce off the freighter like bowling pins to a 50lb bowling ball


At that speed it would punch a hole in the freighter, destroying both ships & the resulting debris would cause a lot of destruction as a result. Do you people even think before you come up with these ideas? A piece of space dust traveling at speed is a threat in the real world.

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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#1058 - 2013-07-07 13:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I don't think this means what you think it means[/url][/i]


"the idea that while certain operations may be extremely costly in resources, they cannot occur at a high-enough frequency to weigh down the entire program because the number of less costly operations will far outnumber the costly ones in the long run,"

Seems applicable enough; I can say averaged if you prefer.

Quote:
A freighter load of trit has a substantial value, in isk, opportunity cost and time involved in gathering it, so yes it is the Eve equivalent of a sack of cash, albeit a relatively small one in the whole scheme of things.


In the same way a sack of potatoes is a sack of cash, sure.

Quote:
But please carry on with your circular and specious reasoning, because it's quite amusing watching you tie yourself in knots over a long established, much used and totally legitimate use of game mechanics.


I never said it wasn't established or legitimate, just that it didn't make conceptual sense. Would you similarly argue that podding someone is not an offensive act?
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#1059 - 2013-07-07 13:35:09 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I would like to point out that a freighter load of trit is not a gank worthy target.


You forget that these are members of the "time I spend is free" crowd, so the fact that you can, theoretically kill a freighter for under 100m is magically relevant to them.


"Theoretically"? It's regularly done with 30 cats valued <1.5m. Factoring in a full load of trit, a 50% drop rate, and a 34-way split, that's still ~20m/hr/person.... for ganking a load of trit.

Historically, high sec piracy is not supposed to be that consistently profitable.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#1060 - 2013-07-07 13:39:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The mack is almost as big as a freighter.


Tenth of the mass though.... unless you mean the mackinaw, in which case a 50th.