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[PROPOSAL] Release updated graphics out-of-game
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Jonathon Bolmara
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-07-03 08:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonathon Bolmara
*** I know this is a repetitive topic, so if it has been mentioned for this CSM already, please forgive me. I did try searching for a similar topic but the only one I could find was back in 2011 ***


As many of us, from my experience anyway, have already stated, we would like better graphics in EVE. In fact, this thread has nearly 100 pages of support for better graphics.
However, I digress. With CCP stating that they are concerned about people not having computers which can support higher quality graphics, why not release the better graphics separately so that, for example,machinima creators can make better films.

This should help everyone as CCP only need to release the better graphics (they can make it limited through registration if they do not want everyone having them) while the players can effectively give free advertising to EVE through their machinimas.

I would like to know what you guys think about this idea as well. So many of us want more shiny and it is obvious not everyone can support it, but if it is done this way, the graphics can be slowly implemented to the community and it is up to the end-user as to whether they believe their computer is capable of handling it.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2013-07-06 18:53:16 UTC
Jonathon Bolmara wrote:
*** I know this is a repetitive topic, so if it has been mentioned for this CSM already, please forgive me. I did try searching for a similar topic but the only one I could find was back in 2011 ***


As many of us, from my experience anyway, have already stated, we would like better graphics in EVE. In fact, this thread has nearly 100 pages of support for better graphics.
However, I digress. With CCP stating that they are concerned about people not having computers which can support higher quality graphics, why not release the better graphics separately so that, for example,machinima creators can make better films.

This should help everyone as CCP only need to release the better graphics (they can make it limited through registration if they do not want everyone having them) while the players can effectively give free advertising to EVE through their machinimas.

I would like to know what you guys think about this idea as well. So many of us want more shiny and it is obvious not everyone can support it, but if it is done this way, the graphics can be slowly implemented to the community and it is up to the end-user as to whether they believe their computer is capable of handling it.

while this woudl be nice and all for those videos, it would never then be implemented in game.

why?
same reason we dont have DX11 and wont have ti for quite a while.

Eve for whatever reason has a fairly large playerbase of people using old-as-dirt computers with mulitple accounts running, who will amit that YES THEY WANT SHINY, but they absolutely REFUSE to upgrade their computer for any reason, and threaten to quit playing should they not be able to run all 5 of their clients at once on their stock-windows-xp.
Jonathon Bolmara
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-07-07 14:07:59 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Jonathon Bolmara wrote:
*** I know this is a repetitive topic, so if it has been mentioned for this CSM already, please forgive me. I did try searching for a similar topic but the only one I could find was back in 2011 ***


As many of us, from my experience anyway, have already stated, we would like better graphics in EVE. In fact, this thread has nearly 100 pages of support for better graphics.
However, I digress. With CCP stating that they are concerned about people not having computers which can support higher quality graphics, why not release the better graphics separately so that, for example,machinima creators can make better films.

This should help everyone as CCP only need to release the better graphics (they can make it limited through registration if they do not want everyone having them) while the players can effectively give free advertising to EVE through their machinimas.

I would like to know what you guys think about this idea as well. So many of us want more shiny and it is obvious not everyone can support it, but if it is done this way, the graphics can be slowly implemented to the community and it is up to the end-user as to whether they believe their computer is capable of handling it.

while this woudl be nice and all for those videos, it would never then be implemented in game.

why?
same reason we dont have DX11 and wont have ti for quite a while.

Eve for whatever reason has a fairly large playerbase of people using old-as-dirt computers with mulitple accounts running, who will amit that YES THEY WANT SHINY, but they absolutely REFUSE to upgrade their computer for any reason, and threaten to quit playing should they not be able to run all 5 of their clients at once on their stock-windows-xp.


This is why I was proposing this. It would NOT be implemented in-game. Instead, an external download can be used to provide the texture maps needed when making 3D models/pictures and the like. Those who complain about their low-spec PC's don't have to download and shouldn't (because they wouldn't be able to use them effectively anyway).

As far as I can tell, the only reasons an external release could be blocked would be that CCP don't have the facilities to support the download or they don't want to release game assets publicly.

Don't get me wrong, I know the chances of this occurring is slim, however as the CSM is a player elected council representing the community in front of CCP, it may be an opportunity to raise a long-term issue in a new way which may appeal to CCP while still offering some of us the opportunity to improve our creations.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#4 - 2013-07-08 00:46:24 UTC
Jonathon Bolmara wrote:
As far as I can tell, the only reasons an external release could be blocked would be that CCP don't have the facilities to support the download or they don't want to release game assets publicly.

No, its much more about time/cost of labor analysis, copyright, and client security. To do the high-res texture pack, CCP would need to devote dev time to creating a method for the client resources to be loaded on the client's end depending on the texture packs available on the user's machine. Regardless of a person's ability to render the textures, CCP would need to handle multiple situations and provide debugging tools for cases where out-dated textures might affect client performance. Then CCP needs to devote additional dev resources to maintaining the regular textures that ship with the client, as well as the new high-res pack. In the end, CCP doubles their workload for each patch where even a slight tweak to an alpha layer is the only graphic change.

As well, adding methods to custom load a texture pack only increases the amount of information that the user can glean from the client's public-accessible data. The more you open up the client code to be poked around in, the more possible security holes you open for botters and nefarious ner-do-wellers to exploit the client. So, on top of the dev resources to maintain the texture packs with each release, you add additional dev time to security analysis.

Finally, adding the texture options will only lead to headaches down the road during code refactoring. Eventually, CCP will need to move up to DX11 as DX9 gets pushed out of the market (the day is nowhere soon, though). At that time, the engine will need some significant re-writing, if it's not already done. Anything that works with the graphics engine is going to need a fine-tooth combing to ensure compatibility, and a highres texture option will only present additional headaches during a full code review.

The highres texture pack would be awesome to have, but EVE isn't exactly like Skyrim et. al. where mods can just be dropped in willy-nilly. As an MMO, CCP has to make choices based on whether they can devote the dev time to maintaining the project in the long-run. We already saw the "classic" graphics option get dropped in favor of the Trinity engine for the same reason: dev time was being wasted maintaining old code and old graphics. It might be nice for the niche group that'd really like the high-res pack, but it's not really in CCP's best interests to devote the devtime to the project in the long run.

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Jonathon Bolmara
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-07-08 17:12:53 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
Jonathon Bolmara wrote:
As far as I can tell, the only reasons an external release could be blocked would be that CCP don't have the facilities to support the download or they don't want to release game assets publicly.

No, its much more about time/cost of labor analysis, copyright, and client security. To do the high-res texture pack, CCP would need to devote dev time to creating a method for the client resources to be loaded on the client's end depending on the texture packs available on the user's machine. Regardless of a person's ability to render the textures, CCP would need to handle multiple situations and provide debugging tools for cases where out-dated textures might affect client performance. Then CCP needs to devote additional dev resources to maintaining the regular textures that ship with the client, as well as the new high-res pack. In the end, CCP doubles their workload for each patch where even a slight tweak to an alpha layer is the only graphic change.

As well, adding methods to custom load a texture pack only increases the amount of information that the user can glean from the client's public-accessible data. The more you open up the client code to be poked around in, the more possible security holes you open for botters and nefarious ner-do-wellers to exploit the client. So, on top of the dev resources to maintain the texture packs with each release, you add additional dev time to security analysis.

Finally, adding the texture options will only lead to headaches down the road during code refactoring. Eventually, CCP will need to move up to DX11 as DX9 gets pushed out of the market (the day is nowhere soon, though). At that time, the engine will need some significant re-writing, if it's not already done. Anything that works with the graphics engine is going to need a fine-tooth combing to ensure compatibility, and a highres texture option will only present additional headaches during a full code review.

The highres texture pack would be awesome to have, but EVE isn't exactly like Skyrim et. al. where mods can just be dropped in willy-nilly. As an MMO, CCP has to make choices based on whether they can devote the dev time to maintaining the project in the long-run. We already saw the "classic" graphics option get dropped in favor of the Trinity engine for the same reason: dev time was being wasted maintaining old code and old graphics. It might be nice for the niche group that'd really like the high-res pack, but it's not really in CCP's best interests to devote the devtime to the project in the long run.


Ok, maybe I didn't explain what I was proposing properly. What I am suggesting is that no changes should be made ot the client or any part of the actual game for that matter. Instead, a situation like the following could occur. A zip file is released by CCP which contains .jpg and .png files which can then be used to reconstruct the bump maps, specularity maps and texture maps required for modelling. Anyway, if CCP have already stated they have the textures and can give them to use now, the only "dev time" required would be to dedicate a tiny fraction of a the server for the texture downloads.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-07-08 18:30:33 UTC
I don't see how this even has to be out of game. A tiny company in the Balkans managed to package SpaceForce: Rogue Universe with 3 separate rendering engines, down to shader module 2.0 for the Windows 95 users...

The visual difference between the 3 engines is absolutely huge, making an interesting contrast when you switch between them.

CCP doesn't even need to do new work. Just package the 2003 graphics engine back into Eve, and all the whine goes away.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2013-07-09 08:39:22 UTC
Lykouleon wrote:
Jonathon Bolmara wrote:
As far as I can tell, the only reasons an external release could be blocked would be that CCP don't have the facilities to support the download or they don't want to release game assets publicly.

No, its much more about time/cost of labor analysis, copyright, and client security. To do the high-res texture pack, CCP would need to devote dev time to creating a method for the client resources to be loaded on the client's end depending on the texture packs available on the user's machine. Regardless of a person's ability to render the textures, CCP would need to handle multiple situations and provide debugging tools for cases where out-dated textures might affect client performance. Then CCP needs to devote additional dev resources to maintaining the regular textures that ship with the client, as well as the new high-res pack. In the end, CCP doubles their workload for each patch where even a slight tweak to an alpha layer is the only graphic change.

As well, adding methods to custom load a texture pack only increases the amount of information that the user can glean from the client's public-accessible data. The more you open up the client code to be poked around in, the more possible security holes you open for botters and nefarious ner-do-wellers to exploit the client. So, on top of the dev resources to maintain the texture packs with each release, you add additional dev time to security analysis.

Finally, adding the texture options will only lead to headaches down the road during code refactoring. Eventually, CCP will need to move up to DX11 as DX9 gets pushed out of the market (the day is nowhere soon, though). At that time, the engine will need some significant re-writing, if it's not already done. Anything that works with the graphics engine is going to need a fine-tooth combing to ensure compatibility, and a highres texture option will only present additional headaches during a full code review.

The highres texture pack would be awesome to have, but EVE isn't exactly like Skyrim et. al. where mods can just be dropped in willy-nilly. As an MMO, CCP has to make choices based on whether they can devote the dev time to maintaining the project in the long-run. We already saw the "classic" graphics option get dropped in favor of the Trinity engine for the same reason: dev time was being wasted maintaining old code and old graphics. It might be nice for the niche group that'd really like the high-res pack, but it's not really in CCP's best interests to devote the devtime to the project in the long run.


You realize that Art has stated that these 4x size ship textures are the ones they make in house from the beginning, and the ones we see ingame are simply lower resolution versions of them?

They won't be doing 'twice the work' to maintain the higher res V3 textures, as the ones they work with before resizing and packaging are the high res ones

You make a good point about the packaging and delivery, but this is what they offered to do the work for if enough support was shown.

Katrina Oniseki