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What if CCP had pooled all their resources for developing Eve?
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Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-07-06 15:24:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Godsnottlingson
Samroski wrote:
With all the money and time spent on useless (imho) stuff like Dust and WoD, I cannot help but think what eve would be like now had CCP concentrated on Eve alone.

1. One million subscribers
2. WiS et al.
3. Mining that doesn't bore you to death
4....


So, let's say for instance that Ford decide to stop making every model they make and just churn out mid range Focus. A good solid car which in Europe at least is probably their biggest seller. A year later Ford goes bust. Because:

A. People like variety.
B. no matter how good the Focus is a lot of folks would not be seen dead in one.
C. If can't do everything and be everything.

Eve is very much a niche game. So CCP need to spread their eggs. CCP have never been afraid to trying to do new and different things, hence DUST.
DUST is a gamble, one that needs soem corperate balls to run with. But I am sure that CCP have researched things well and have taken advice from people eminantly more qualified then you, the OP that is.
WiS will come, eventually. But again, CCP did something 'odd' in the gaming industry. Thay listened to their player base and reacted to what we wanted. When Dark doobrie or what ever it is called finally goes live, I am sure that we will see a lot of steps forward with WiS, Once they can free up development time, and drag accross several key systems that they have developed for that other game! *Damn! I can't remember the bloody name of it for my life!*
And as for "mining that doesn't bore you to death." That's just your oppinion, there are enough players who mine happily for hours, and I am not talking about AFK/bot miners. I have had many a good laugh and caht with friends while killing roids.

OP, you are just one of many, many players in this game. The game does not revolve around what just you want. Accept that or f...... you know, that phrase to do with sex and travel.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#42 - 2013-07-06 15:30:41 UTC
Samroski wrote:
With all the money and time spent on useless (imho) stuff like Dust and WoD, I cannot help but think what eve would be like now had CCP concentrated on Eve alone.

1. One million subscribers
2. WiS et al.
3. Mining that doesn't bore you to death
4....



1. 50% tidi at all times.
2. So much useless fluff that it will require a cray to run it.
3. Mining will always bore you to death.
4. You're living in a dream world Neo......Oops



Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-07-06 17:15:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Spenser for Hire
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

So, let's say for instance that Ford decide to stop making every model they make and just churn out mid range Focus. A good solid car which in Europe at least is probably their biggest seller. A year later Ford goes bust. Because:

A. People like variety.
B. no matter how good the Focus is a lot of folks would not be seen dead in one.
C. If can't do everything and be everything.

Eve is very much a niche game. So CCP need to spread their eggs. CCP have never been afraid to trying to do new and different things, hence DUST.
.
.
.


OP, you are just one of many, many players in this game. The game does not revolve around what just you want. Accept that or f...... you know, that phrase to do with sex and travel.


A) Don't use the US-Auto Industry as an analogy because if it weren't for the Gov't Bailout we'd all be driving Japanese cars in America.
B) Your Auto-Industry analogy is "a tad bit askew" because it is so dissimilar. In order for it to be even remotely similar you'd have to say: "What if Ford made Cars, and Gardening equipment, and vaccums?"
C) Thus, the inferences that you draw have nothing to do with the present case.

With all the people in this thread claiming to possess an intimate knowledge of Business and how it works, it is absolutely surprising that NO ONE has suggested that the OP be interpreted from a Business perspective. If the OP is interpreted from a Business perspective, the single biggest issue to take into consideration is, once again, the development of "Star Citizen."

One of the things that "Star Citizen" is doing, is giving gamers a different education about the development of a game. If you visit the SC website, or if you have been visiting the SC website or following it since its KickStarter, then you've been hearing a lot of: "This money will do this, because it will pay for these developers."

Understood, in the current business context, the OP is a customer, expressing dissatisfaction, disappointment, and disbelief in the current state of development of EVE Online. Let us NOT argue about the current state of EVE Online, even Pro-EVE players have no choice but to compare EVE Online to such things as the worst, most nauseating beer in existence. If what SC has been telling us is true, (This money will do this, because it will pay for these developers) then we are forced to ask the very question that the OP is asking: EVE Online has been in development for more that 10 years, CCP has had money rolling in on a monthly basis, CCP has had developers on Pay-roll for years, What has CCP been doing with the money???

EVE Online is no longer a 'niche' game. EVE Online is no longer the only Sci-fi MMO in existence. IF Hilmar's vision was to make EVE Online the quintessential sci-fi experience, when "Star Citizen" is released we'll all be asking the same questions as the OP: Where did all the money go???

Don't ask me to post with my main! You post with your main first!
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#44 - 2013-07-06 17:36:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiber Ibis
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

So, let's say for instance that Ford decide to stop making every model they make and just churn out mid range Focus. A good solid car which in Europe at least is probably their biggest seller. A year later Ford goes bust. Because:

A. People like variety.
B. no matter how good the Focus is a lot of folks would not be seen dead in one.
C. If can't do everything and be everything.

Another person who doesn't understand business. If Ford concentrated on the Ford Focus, probably the most profitable car for them, then they would not go bust as they are making profit. Per $ spent the Ford Focus probably makes Ford the most $ back out of any of the other cars in their range.

Now what would make them go bust though is if they suddenly decided to start making soft drinks. Big suppliers such as coke have many of the competitive advantages internally. Ford would be making little profit by expanding like this, and may even make a big loss which would wipe out the profits they make from selling the Ford Focus.

Now maybe you can take a leap and apply this same analogy to CCP, but I suspect it is probably too much to ask for most.
Just Lilly
#45 - 2013-07-06 17:47:52 UTC
I don't think much would have changed tbh

They took the funds and tried to create something "new" with it, or to expand on their idea.

Which is an honorable thing to do, rather then putting the funds in the pockets of the "board".
Powered by Nvidia GTX 690
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#46 - 2013-07-06 21:25:06 UTC
This isn't Eve incorporated, its CCP and the P happens to represent plural as in Production(S). CCP has taken a ballsy step into competition with a playerbase quite different than our own. But it is a much larger customer base. Multiple income streams make sense. Dusts Niche will have to be the FPS crowd that likes simulations instead of just finger twitching. How they will ferret them out is anybodies guess but I think its a specialized enough niche, if it even exists.

Hilmar has given us a bit of a vision as to what a win for CCP would look like. It a may soon be so large that no one person can fathom The All. Our in game collaboration tools are too weak but they have made the first connections network wise. It IS possible to plug into EVE. And with a console to boot. That's quite a feat. Now if they can serve the finger twitchers and sell them the EVE playerbase like they sold us Intelligent Sleepers and collapsing wormholes, DUST could be simply the first of several product lines. It would be like selling kitchen wares as part of the product lines of a housewares company.

We are selling space not just one planet. If I see any lack of specialization its that I don't see DUST selling as hard into the economic side of the simulation. Sure people want pew but its the economic model that drives it here. I'm not sure CCP has played to their Core Strengths but I not having Played DUST, how could I or anybody judge that?

To there credit though, They have COre activities in their infrastructure than run simultaneous to each other like networking coding and art. Cross coding between departments if managed well might improve and build synergies so that the company works well in a 3d fashion both across and between product lines. Having people Code for Dust could actually make EVE stronger.
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#47 - 2013-07-06 22:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ban Bindy
Spenser for Hire wrote:
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:

So, let's say for instance that Ford decide to stop making every model they make and just churn out mid range Focus. A good solid car which in Europe at least is probably their biggest seller. A year later Ford goes bust. Because:

A. People like variety.
B. no matter how good the Focus is a lot of folks would not be seen dead in one.
C. If can't do everything and be everything.

Eve is very much a niche game. So CCP need to spread their eggs. CCP have never been afraid to trying to do new and different things, hence DUST.
.
.
.


OP, you are just one of many, many players in this game. The game does not revolve around what just you want. Accept that or f...... you know, that phrase to do with sex and travel.


...
One of the things that "Star Citizen" is doing, is giving gamers a different education about the development of a game. If you visit the SC website, or if you have been visiting the SC website or following it since its KickStarter, then you've been hearing a lot of: "This money will do this, because it will pay for these developers."

Understood, in the current business context, the OP is a customer, expressing dissatisfaction, disappointment, and disbelief in the current state of development of EVE Online. Let us NOT argue about the current state of EVE Online, even Pro-EVE players have no choice but to compare EVE Online to such things as the worst, most nauseating beer in existence. If what SC has been telling us is true, (This money will do this, because it will pay for these developers) then we are forced to ask the very question that the OP is asking: EVE Online has been in development for more that 10 years, CCP has had money rolling in on a monthly basis, CCP has had developers on Pay-roll for years, What has CCP been doing with the money???

EVE Online is no longer a 'niche' game. EVE Online is no longer the only Sci-fi MMO in existence. IF Hilmar's vision was to make EVE Online the quintessential sci-fi experience, when "Star Citizen" is released we'll all be asking the same questions as the OP: Where did all the money go???


Hmm, but I thought EVE was a niche game, according to the commonly held wisdom of the forum. Not for everybody, you know, all that stuff. Cold dark harsh and expensive.

CCP did indeed, in the wake of the famous summer of rage, share information about how many developers it had assigned to teams and what work they were doing. I never paid much attention to it because I don't really care. If you poke around you might be able to find it.

You really want to defend OP's pie in the sky approach to this question? What do you think would have happened if all the resources of CCP, unnamed in amount and virtually unknowable to us here, had been applied to the development of EVE? And then we make some silly guesses. The subscriptions would have doubled? On the basis of what metric? If I wanted to have this discussion, I would certainly want some actual facts on which to base it, and not a bunch of sophomoric assumptions.

Op is "a customer, expressing dissatisfaction, disappointment, and disbelief in the current state of development of EVE Online. Let us NOT argue about the current state of EVE Online,." What?! Isn't OP obliged actually to get specific about what causes his dissatisfaction, etc? Has he himself developed a game like EVE before, for instance, and done it better? Does he have better ideas about x or y? Oh, no. We are not actually to discuss the state of EVE even though the issue is totally wrapped around what we think about the state of Eve. Fine. I can see the discussion will be most fruitful.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#48 - 2013-07-06 22:05:14 UTC
Samroski wrote:
With all the money and time spent on useless (imho) stuff like Dust and WoD, I cannot help but think what eve would be like now had CCP concentrated on Eve alone.

1. One million subscribers
2. WiS et al.
3. Mining that doesn't bore you to death
4....


CCP tries / tried other products for two reasons:

- Never put all your money on one horse aka diversify investments

- EvE today is all succesful and stuff but what if in 3 years something happens and the company has no other product to (try) live off of? Introducing new products is a proactive approach to an unknown future in a period of big, often unpredictable changes.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-07-06 22:08:28 UTC
Samroski wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3295939#post3295939

What that post says is that if a developer is moved to Dust, he's replaced.

I'm suggesting that if there was no Dust, and all the developers who are working on Dust and WoD spent their time and effort on developing Eve.


The most likely scenario is those developers would be working for other companies & EVE would overall be the same as it is now.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#50 - 2013-07-06 22:08:50 UTC
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
I will bring up the 800lb gorilla that EVE players, Devs and Mgmt. so love to hate, World of Warcraft. Hate the game if you will but learn the valid lessons it has taught most (read: everyone except CCP) that taking care of casual gamers will bring you wealth beyond imagining AND more importantly allow you to properly develop exciting environments for both pve and pvp players alike.

CCP and a certain percentage of the EVE player base love to remark about how EVE is still growing after 10 years while other games of lost subs.

At least one of those other games monster stomped EVE in subs a long time ago, made more money than CCP's grandest dreams could even come close to and had more money to develop their game than EVE ever will, i cant for the life of me see where this brings about bragging rights for EVE.

A couple of things wrong with your thinking. Like I said above, you are thinking in a small minded way and not looking at CCPs vision for eve. The truth is that WOW is dying specifically because it catered so much to casual gamers. You can collerate its decline with the expansion which tripled xp gain. So that pretty much blows your whole post out and is where your argument falls down. Catering too much for casuals is the path to decline.


No, WoW made its success because it was the first MMO that catered to casual players,

The decline is commonly known as jumping the shark. That is a product / IP / brand has REALLY told all it could tell and now is completely exhaust and ready to become a memory.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-07-06 22:22:21 UTC
Why wonder about what might have been? Seems like a complete waste of time.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#52 - 2013-07-07 00:22:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The decline is commonly known as jumping the shark. That is a product / IP / brand has REALLY told all it could tell and now is completely exhaust and ready to become a memory.

Jumping the shark has no relevance to MMORPG's, it isn't even a business term. Wow could have survived and maintained its massive user base, but it failed to innovate and develop the content users wanted whilst at the same time creaming off the profits. When things started to go wrong they had no direction and are now trying everything they can to get every last remaining cent out of everyone. The thing I really like about Himlar and CCP is they are really passionate about making eve the greatest sci fi simulator in existence, and are reinvesting all the profits back into eve and other related products. WOD is questionable though, as seems to take more from eve than it gives back.
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-07-07 01:19:02 UTC
Ban Bindy wrote:
Hmm, but I thought EVE was a niche game, according to the commonly held wisdom of the forum. Not for everybody, you know, all that stuff. Cold dark harsh and expensive.

CCP did indeed, in the wake of the famous summer of rage, share information about how many developers it had assigned to teams and what work they were doing. I never paid much attention to it because I don't really care. If you poke around you might be able to find it.

You really want to defend OP's pie in the sky approach to this question? What do you think would have happened if all the resources of CCP, unnamed in amount and virtually unknowable to us here, had been applied to the development of EVE? And then we make some silly guesses. The subscriptions would have doubled? On the basis of what metric? If I wanted to have this discussion, I would certainly want some actual facts on which to base it, and not a bunch of sophomoric assumptions.

Op is "a customer, expressing dissatisfaction, disappointment, and disbelief in the current state of development of EVE Online. Let us NOT argue about the current state of EVE Online,." What?! Isn't OP obliged actually to get specific about what causes his dissatisfaction, etc? Has he himself developed a game like EVE before, for instance, and done it better? Does he have better ideas about x or y? Oh, no. We are not actually to discuss the state of EVE even though the issue is totally wrapped around what we think about the state of Eve. Fine. I can see the discussion will be most fruitful.


I don't think you understood my post.


What you are suggesting is that the OP should be interpreted literally. What I am suggesting is the the OP should be interpreted as a customer, and his post interpreted from a business perspective; a business trying to understand the concerns of its customers.

The conditions that you place upon the customer are absurd, to say the least. 1) The customer has to have an MBA. 2) The customer has to have developed a similar, more successful product. 3) The customer has to have statistical data to back his claim.
If one had to be an expert on cell phone technology to carry a cell phone, there'd be what, 7 cell phones in use???

Most of you are saying that listening to a customer, like the OP, and doing what's in the best interest of a company is like having one's cake and eating it too. What I'm saying is, Listening to a customer, like the OP, is what's in the best interest of the company.

What the OP does is express the belief that EVE Online must be insufficiently funded. And the OP adds several examples which lead him to this conclusion. The question is, Why does the OP believe that the state of EVE Online is/was caused by 'insufficient funding'? Why doesn't the OP believe, like other people in the thread, that the state of EVE Online is caused by "gross incompetence"?

I won't address the question of "the state of EVE Online" because you cut my sentence in half, and therefore are deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I will however quote another post, which says it very well.

Minister of Death wrote:
It seems difficult to figure out what they CCP is thinking about these days. The game remains very small, and they continue to do really stupid things like the launcher, lack of DDoS protection, and the endless crap like freighter bumping, jita pop limits, and misc small changes like adding a mid slot to a ship, gut range on this weap over there, etc, and somehow convince themselves they are making progress. It's no help to them either to have so many brownnosers who forgive them for every mistep, year after year.

If you think about the bigger picture, this game has not hardly changed in years. CCP is clearly incompetent in multiple areas, including OPS ('oops i accidentally a node with 2200+ pilots in an exceptionally major battle')...

It is difficult to to arrive at any other conclusion than poor management and execution; re: fairly gross incompetence.

I had high hopes for CCP back in the day. They missed the boat, and are now a dying company. Sean Decker will speed their demise, not slow it.

Don't ask me to post with my main! You post with your main first!
Fear Near
No Fear PP
#54 - 2013-07-07 03:35:23 UTC
Quote:
Toyota Exits Marine Industry in the U.S.

27 Feb 2002

Per an IBI report, Toyota announced it was leaving the marine industry today. Even with the new boatbuilding facility, the Epic brand is being dropped. Bill Nichtern, Toyota's national sales manager announced they were closing down Florida, but will maintain parts availability for 10 years and retain technical managers for 5 years.
The division was opened in 1997 and launched its first boat in the fall of 1998. It currently has 20 dealers and 5 models. Nichtern said the boat molds would be destroyed, and no engines would be sold to other boat manufacturers.

The project started as a diversification to explore marine opportunities. He feels they have accomplished that. Poor sales and a flat economy helped made long-term prospects for the brand "untenable". They decided to exit the industry and have no immediate plans to return "in any other capacities".

He reports the dealers are behind them in their decision and will support the existing warranty obligations.

Tokyo's Nihon Keizai Shimbun newspaper reported Monday 25 February 2002 that Toyota Motor in Japan has teamed with Yamaha Motor and Yanmar to cut costs and co-operate in the development of diesel engines for recreational craft. They will market the new engines independently to European boat assemblers.
Inokuma Yawara
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-07-07 07:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Inokuma Yawara
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The decline is commonly known as jumping the shark. That is a product / IP / brand has REALLY told all it could tell and now is completely exhaust and ready to become a memory.

Jumping the shark has no relevance to MMORPG's, it isn't even a business term. Wow could have survived and maintained its massive user base, but it failed to innovate and develop the content users wanted whilst at the same time creaming off the profits. When things started to go wrong they had no direction and are now trying everything they can to get every last remaining cent out of everyone....


And THAT is the very description of what Jumping the Shark means.

Watch this space.  New exciting signature in development.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-07-07 07:58:44 UTC
Inokuma Yawara wrote:
Tiber Ibis wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The decline is commonly known as jumping the shark. That is a product / IP / brand has REALLY told all it could tell and now is completely exhaust and ready to become a memory.

Jumping the shark has no relevance to MMORPG's, it isn't even a business term. Wow could have survived and maintained its massive user base, but it failed to innovate and develop the content users wanted whilst at the same time creaming off the profits. When things started to go wrong they had no direction and are now trying everything they can to get every last remaining cent out of everyone....


And THAT is the very description of what Jumping the Shark means.


But then again folks been saying WoW died years ago, even at it's height. Roll

It's why when talking about WoW dying, the only way it is considered "jumping the shark", is when the subscriptions are but 1 million left worldwide.

That's hardly the case even years from now. Titan would be out even before then (3 to 4 years from now).

Invest that much time in a game, folks just don't leave it. I can't get my family out of WoW unless it's with serious bribes, to them all this doom and gloom doesn't exist, the content is there every patch and they're having fun.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2013-07-07 08:10:01 UTC
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:
And as for "mining that doesn't bore you to death." That's just your oppinion, there are enough players who mine happily for hours, and I am not talking about AFK/bot miners. I have had many a good laugh and caht with friends while killing roids.


As an avid harvester (and was one of the top ones in EQII when I played), I can say that mining in EvE is as boring as it comes. Something designed to be but bait for PvPers (not even a moving target) couldn't have been made so badly. It's perfect for bots and multiboxers, which trivializes it even more (they would be happy with it, because it's so bot friendly).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2013-07-07 08:33:23 UTC
Samroski wrote:
With all the money and time spent on useless (imho) stuff like Dust and WoD, I cannot help but think what eve would be like now had CCP concentrated on Eve alone.

1. One million subscribers
2. WiS et al.
3. Mining that doesn't bore you to death
4....


The thing is, at the end of the day, the OP made a strong dogmatic statement offering no support for his claims.

If CCP only developed Eve and nothing else offer proof that we would have a million subscribers, offer proof that we would all be walking about in Stations, offer proof that mining would be that new interesting game that everybody is lining up to play.

Don't just make a statement because thegame does not fit exactly 100% into what you demand from a game
Chamile Eonic
The Church of MDAMC
#59 - 2013-07-07 09:51:32 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
Samroski wrote:
I cannot help but think what eve would be like now had CCP concentrated on Eve alone.

Happend once, was called Apocrypha, the best expansion ever.


THIS
Chamile Eonic
The Church of MDAMC
#60 - 2013-07-07 10:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Chamile Eonic
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:
Samroski wrote:
With all the money and time spent on useless (imho) stuff like Dust and WoD, I cannot help but think what eve would be like now had CCP concentrated on Eve alone.

1. One million subscribers
2. WiS et al.
3. Mining that doesn't bore you to death
4....


The thing is, at the end of the day, the OP made a strong dogmatic statement offering no support for his claims.

If CCP only developed Eve and nothing else offer proof that we would have a million subscribers, offer proof that we would all be walking about in Stations, offer proof that mining would be that new interesting game that everybody is lining up to play.

Don't just make a statement because thegame does not fit exactly 100% into what you demand from a game


I assume the point he was making was that all the man hours put into dust/dust integration, could have added some pretty exciting stuff to EVE. Many of the features they have talked about but not done because lack of time could be in the game by now.

HERE IS THE REAL PROBLEM.

The code is in terrible condition. CCP have admitted this on many occasions. Much of the code is 5-10 years old and not documented properly. There have been so many hacks used to make features work over the years that its now one massive tangle.

This means even making small changes requires a massive amount of effort and takes a LONG time. Its not that CCPm don't work hard its that its impossible to know how long or if something is even possible with the code until they try.

Thats why you hear 75% of the ideas they have and announce at Fanfest etc. never happen. They are good ideas and should be possible in a decent amount of time. But once they start work they find out its waaaaayyy harder as one thing breaks another, so they give up.

We end up as outsiders seeing very very little actually come off the production line. there are however thousands of man hours of wasted cancelled projects along the way.

How to fix you ask? Same way the sorted the Crime watch. Take one area and give it a total rewrite. Its a big upfront investment, but from then on changes to that area are much easier. Why isn't that happening? They don't have the resources to pump out content for us every 6 months AND do the backend work in a timely manner.

Thats why I am sad that they spend so much money on Dust/WoD/Incarna/ and now eveVR (at least its looking like that little project is going to get money thrown at it). If all that money had been spent on getting the code in order, then adding modular POSs wouldn't be a nightmare.

think about it, when was the last complicated feature added to EVE? I mean something along the lines of Wormholes? They can't do much fundamental to the game so they focus on Balance and updating the graphics.