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100mn Tengu still viable? (PVP)
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Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-07-05 19:17:47 UTC
Is 2400 not enough speed because rlm are short range weapons? How fast does a tengu have to be to be viable in this meta? Are ONLY 3500m/s ships being used nowadays? If slower ships are being used why can they be slower but tengu cant?
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#22 - 2013-07-05 19:39:39 UTC
Viribus wrote:
HMLs do about half damage to MWDing cruisers nowadays, which is pretty awful. Honestly there's really no reason to use them over RMLs now (or HAMs with javelins when you're <30km), their damage projection is awful and they can't hit anything smaller than a BC for full damage. EVE-O pubs just look at the 10% damage reduction and completely ignore the massive nerfs to explosion radius/velocity, presumably because all they do is shoot painted/webbed rats all day

Honestly people on this forum are about 3 years behind the curve on the metagame, crying about how "OP" the drake and cane were when they were made almost totally obsolete by the introduction of tier3s. There are probably still people that think the cynabal is still a feared and powerful PVP ship lmao


^ This man knows what he is talking about. agree 100%

As for the RLM argument:

Caracal has a projection bonus, so you can push your furys out to 45K plus. CN out to 60
Cerberus has the dual range bonus, and is pushing light missiles out to 110K or so. Yes that is correct, cerb will apply 300+ dps to any frig within 110K. Its astonishing, only thing is HAC's have yet to be buffed, and cerb is too slow to use currently.
SCYFI: FIt with 1/2 hydraulic bay thrustors, you can get your Furys out nearly as far as the caracal. 45K is more than enough range for fury, and you are still looking at around 60K with CN.

An RLM caracal will do more DPS than any medium AC ship in the game at 26K

Scythe fleet gets 400 heated DPS out to 45K, on a platform that has a signature of a t1 frig, 27K EHP, and can go 3K/s unheated, unlinked, and no implants.

The current 'meta' has always been the meta. That meta is kiting.

The best ships in the game are the ones that are fast, can project damage at 35+ K And have enough tank to dip and dive out of gangs. The reason why 2200ms is slow in this meta, is because an unlinked t1 cruiser can easily exceed that speed. If you run across a nano'd one it gets worse. (Don't even get me started on links / HG snakes. Because then it just gets silly. You can push a SCYFI- to around 5k/s unheated mwd, pushing 7.5/8k/s with heat) Because all pvp is risk averse pvp, and you will be dealing with a blob, you ideally need to be faster than ships that can hard takle you. Because you really can never be faster than a frigate, you need to be able to kill them very quickly. After that, you just need to stay ahead of those crazt fast t1 cruisers that are just itching to web / scram you.

And that is why the 100MN fails. With its 15.5sec+ align time, you just odn't have the speed / agaility to keep up.

With the recent TE nerfs, all MED turret based ships that are not using pulse lasers + scorch have become useless. Vaga always sucked, but now its just trash. And the cynabal was again, barely playable- however it too is now relegated to crap tier. Because of what happened to TEs.

Its sad to say, but RLM or scorch at cruiser level, if you don't your really handicapping yourself.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-07-05 21:59:18 UTC
That is some excellent info. And matches what im seeing in eft. Every build i see suggested ists ham/hml and the dps applied always sucks. Then again my target in eft tends to be t3 or frigate since i expect to find these predominantly and anything bigger/slower is going to only see better dps application.

Even with 0% velocity the t3 barely gets scratched by those weapon systems. I look forward to testing rlm when get home(using net on phone at work now so excuse spelling grammer)

I get the kitting meta. But its not the only thing going on. Big fleets arent countered by kitting ships. Their countered by blobs. And small gang roams tend to have fast tacklers? So why do ships that are sub 3km/s dumped on so bad....unless the ship is solo pvpng

People do fly t3s and i havent seen one fit posted where it travels at 3km/s to be viable. Usually their 1500ish. How are people using these?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-07-05 22:06:54 UTC
t3s travelling at 3km/s means with heat, links and implants

Art of Explosions
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-07-05 22:14:46 UTC
The fits people post arent stated as going that fast. Why does a 100mn need to go 3k to be viable of the t3 i see posted arent that fast? Or is it a matter of....if ur not 3k/s then u might as well not break ur fittings using a 100mn when 10mn gets the job done with the gang having a dedicated tackler?

I get the ham/hlm suck part. Its this speed thing that im still chewing on. 3k seems like aweful fast bemchmark that not everyone seems to even be shooting for with the builds ive been seeing so cant be the male or break point. And even for solo its not a hard # when u never know if ur target going to be going 5k making ur 3k as bad as 100m/s for all it matters
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-07-05 22:21:45 UTC
the thing is that you're going at 3k without the possibility of being scrammed

You align yourself while fighting and kill off tackle MWDing to try and catch you, if anything gets webs on you you can just warp away.

Art of Explosions
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#27 - 2013-07-05 22:42:56 UTC
Just plugged into pyfa the mods and stuff to get a Scythe FI to run 5km/s and afterwards put the same augmentations and links on a cheaped out tengu (1bil), which now goes 3.3km/s non OH, has a 14seconds aligntime, goes 4.8km/s OH. not scrammable, no sigbloom. DPS is only 430.

The one thing that is completely disregarded here is the capacitor. The Tengus endurance is different from any navy cruiser, difference compares to day and night.

So the tengu is - imo - just a ship playing in a different league, most things it can do a navy cruiser can't even remotely accomplish. They might be fine in null/low, but at least in wh-space, 100mn is another kind of ship compared to mwd. (I rather can talk about wh-space compared to low/null)
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-07-05 22:48:00 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Just plugged into pyfa the mods and stuff to get a Scythe FI to run 5km/s and afterwards put the same augmentations and links on a cheaped out tengu (1bil), which now goes 3.3km/s non OH, has a 14seconds aligntime, goes 4.8km/s OH. not scrammable, no sigbloom. DPS is only 430.

The one thing that is completely disregarded here is the capacitor. The Tengus endurance is different from any navy cruiser, difference compares to day and night.

So the tengu is - imo - just a ship playing in a different league, most things it can do a navy cruiser can't even remotely accomplish. They might be fine in null/low, but at least in wh-space, 100mn is another kind of ship compared to mwd. (I rather can talk about wh-space compared to low/null)


Can u post the fits implants u used? U say the tengu capacitor is much better. So u vouch for the 100mn tengu?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#29 - 2013-07-05 23:17:49 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:


Can u post the fits implants u used? U say the tengu capacitor is much better. So u vouch for the 100mn tengu?


According to some earlier post stating a scythe navy, I just tried to get it up to the 8.5km/s that got posted, turns out that the dps is special (no further comment here) and you need HG snakes, a maxlinkloki with mindlink, and quafe and a zors, aswell as nano+overdrive. So really paper. That sythe would also have a cap life of around 2m10sec without an invuln, which is not really bad, but good is different.

Most kiting fights I personally have take more than 5 minutes against one notable target alone, and as most fights tend to take some time (atleast in wormholes, quick gank can require a few thousand dps to really be a quick gank), so I'm in general very grateful to have a large amount of cap and cap recharge to sustain my efforts.

The great thing about the tengu is: It's loleasy to fly. 100mn and missiles goes close to permamwd-drakes, especially as the tengu runs capstable at some 70% compared to a 100mn lokis 10-15minutes of cap using AB, point and 2 webs. As the tengu got 6 mids, you even got spare space for a web and a cap booster, making pinning you down a really annoying task. Moreso, most stuff that can pin you down just dies so quikly, must stuff that doesn't also doesn't pin you down.

So in a competent pilot's hands, tengu is one of the most threatening and annoying ships, as target selection and choosing your fights applies, you get free kills on mostly anything you can find in a small gang, with the few threats requiring always you being outnumbered to start with. A solo rapier can't kill you, a solo loki can't scratch your balls. If it happens to be able to tank you, it is slower than you are. And so on.

Afterall, it really is not the damage projection, or the fact that it runs capstable nearly all time, or the speed or the fact you can't be scrammed, neither the incredible aligntime (aligntime is 3.18sec before propmod) it's also not the ridiculous blaster/railgun resist that make it so good, it's the combination of all those more or less important traits that is afaik rather unique and that effective.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#30 - 2013-07-06 02:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Double
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#31 - 2013-07-06 02:03:39 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Ciyrine wrote:


Can u post the fits implants u used? U say the tengu capacitor is much better. So u vouch for the 100mn tengu?


According to some earlier post stating a scythe navy, I just tried to get it up to the 8.5km/s that got posted, turns out that the dps is special (no further comment here) and you need HG snakes, a maxlinkloki with mindlink, and quafe and a zors, aswell as nano+overdrive. So really paper. That sythe would also have a cap life of around 2m10sec without an invuln, which is not really bad, but good is different.

Most kiting fights I personally have take more than 5 minutes against one notable target alone, and as most fights tend to take some time (atleast in wormholes, quick gank can require a few thousand dps to really be a quick gank), so I'm in general very grateful to have a large amount of cap and cap recharge to sustain my efforts.

The great thing about the tengu is: It's loleasy to fly. 100mn and missiles goes close to permamwd-drakes, especially as the tengu runs capstable at some 70% compared to a 100mn lokis 10-15minutes of cap using AB, point and 2 webs. As the tengu got 6 mids, you even got spare space for a web and a cap booster, making pinning you down a really annoying task. Moreso, most stuff that can pin you down just dies so quikly, must stuff that doesn't also doesn't pin you down.

So in a competent pilot's hands, tengu is one of the most threatening and annoying ships, as target selection and choosing your fights applies, you get free kills on mostly anything you can find in a small gang, with the few threats requiring always you being outnumbered to start with. A solo rapier can't kill you, a solo loki can't scratch your balls. If it happens to be able to tank you, it is slower than you are. And so on.

Afterall, it really is not the damage projection, or the fact that it runs capstable nearly all time, or the speed or the fact you can't be scrammed, neither the incredible aligntime (aligntime is 3.18sec before propmod) it's also not the ridiculous blaster/railgun resist that make it so good, it's the combination of all those more or less important traits that is afaik rather unique and that effective.


So lets grab your buffer tengu and throw it in eft.

http://i.imgur.com/Fd3zM6a.jpg

HG snaked, with 5% ROF and damage implants. That is what your getting.

Now look at this same tengu- RLM. And it opens up fitting space for an extra 20K+ EHP, with very similar dps

http://i.imgur.com/ENFt0wv.jpg

So lets look at your HML tengu vs my Scythe. Scythe has 3 BCs and 5% implants, just like your tengu. No heat.

If we both shoot at an MWD thorax, your applying 234 DPS with CN heavy missiles. The scythe is applying full damage 345 DPS

This gets obviously worse when shooting at cynabals / HACs / Navy cruisers Your DPS application is complete ****. Unless you are shooting at an MWD BC / BS you are not going to be applying full damage with CN missiles, you can forget using fury on anything other than BS. So when you really look at the numbers, the scythe will apply more damage. At the very least, RLM Tengus are much better. 5 Launcher or 6 Launcher. Never use HML or HAM. RLM for cruiser or down and Cruise for some cruiser and Up. HML gives you the worst of both worlds.

The 6 launcher RLMgu and the 5 launcher 100MN RLMgu will do more damage to ships that are your biggest threats- IE frigs / cruisers. That HML tengu does 68 DPS to an enyo. Which means, that any frig will get within range and begin webbing you. It will take you longer to break the webs, and you will die.

When you look at numbers like this, It can get even more hilarious: cruise phoons can use CN against an MWD shield BC, and do about 700 DPS. The tengu, can't use fury yet- so its stuck using CN which nets you 449 DPS.

At the end of the day, a pimped 100mn is just not worth the money anymore.

As for cap stability, you can fit a small cap booster on your ScyFI fixing the problem, or you can dual prop it. ScyFI has an innate sig of 90. Yes 90. With links, its 58. Running the AB your cap stable. And your align time is sub 4 seconds. That way when that federation navy stasis web rapier uncloaks, and dual webbs you from 100K you can actually warp out in time, if you are not aligned, instead of dying in a fire.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#32 - 2013-07-06 02:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
Ciyrine wrote:
Is 2400 not enough speed because rlm are short range weapons? How fast does a tengu have to be to be viable in this meta? Are ONLY 3500m/s ships being used nowadays? If slower ships are being used why can they be slower but tengu cant?


2400m/s is just an abitrary number. it is the speed you need to be able to stay even with a nano'd shield t1 cruiser. The reason why this number is important, is because when you are out soloing- your going to be fighting blobs. The only way to fight blobs and come out on top, is to nano. In order to nano, I need to make sure that my speed is great than the speed of ships that can tackle me, that I can not just out right kill.

The situation gets worse when you start linking things. A linked nano'd cruiser goes 3k/s with basic speed implants. So again, are you fast enough to run from it, or can you kill it?

In the case of the navy cruisers (which are some of the best kiting / solo boats currently) They go well beyond 3k/s making them very save from larger ships scramming them. The only threat at this point, are recons (which every nano / solo ship fiting a gang fears) and light tackle. In the case of light tackle, we are looking at a class of ships that shred frigs.

Nomen has 47K+ range with 400 scorch dps while moving at 3K+ Second
ScyFI is so fast, and also has that 400 RLM DPS
Nosprey has less raw dps than the ScyFI howver- it can pack dual web- allowing you to slam frigs down and out quickly.
SFI Is just ****, as it can't project damage longer than 10K
Navy Ex- Same problem as SFI

When you look at ships like this, there are very very few things that I am afraid of. The only thing that I truly fear is a fed webbed rapier with links uncloaking within 100K of me, and having a gang on the field ready to pounce. If they don't have this, then more often than not I am going in and fighting / nanoing against the gang very effectively.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#33 - 2013-07-06 02:20:18 UTC
Quote:
CNI can apply full light missile fury DPS even against linked / speed implanted intys


The CNI does not have an explosion radius bonus for RLMs.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#34 - 2013-07-06 02:22:47 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Just plugged into pyfa the mods and stuff to get a Scythe FI to run 5km/s and afterwards put the same augmentations and links on a cheaped out tengu (1bil), which now goes 3.3km/s non OH, has a 14seconds aligntime, goes 4.8km/s OH. not scrammable, no sigbloom. DPS is only 430.

The one thing that is completely disregarded here is the capacitor. The Tengus endurance is different from any navy cruiser, difference compares to day and night.

So the tengu is - imo - just a ship playing in a different league, most things it can do a navy cruiser can't even remotely accomplish. They might be fine in null/low, but at least in wh-space, 100mn is another kind of ship compared to mwd. (I rather can talk about wh-space compared to low/null)


Thanks for pointing this out, I was a bit off on remembering the exact sped off the top of my head.

My fit is Dual nano 3X BCS

So unlinked / 3% speed implants + hyperlink

MWD: 3k/s 4.4K/s Heated
AB: 1.1k/s 1500 Heat

MWD W/ link: 4k/s 5.8k/s Heat
AB W/ Link: 1.4k/s 1.9 Heat

Align time with MWD on- 3.8 seconds Off 2.6
Align time with AB on- 3.8sec

I am basically flying a frigate, and its amazing.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#35 - 2013-07-06 02:24:13 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Quote:
CNI can apply full light missile fury DPS even against linked / speed implanted intys


The CNI does not have an explosion radius bonus for RLMs.


*Checks EFT*

Holy **** your right.

Thank god I have not flown it since they ****** it up in the latest expansion. But the more you know <3
God's Apples
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#36 - 2013-07-06 03:42:31 UTC
Don't read any of the comments in this thread. Everyone here has no idea what they're talking about. While the tengu can no longer apply 500 dps to cruisers and above at 100km the HAM fit is still really effective and contrary to what the geniuses in this thread tell you a tengu with HAMs fit can project to roughly 60km with faction ammo because it gets a double range bonus. The rest of the fit is pretty much the same.

Although, if you have to ask on the EvE-O forums whether a 100mn tengu is good and how to fit one I suggest you don't fly a 100mn tengu.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#37 - 2013-07-06 04:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
God's Apples wrote:
Don't read any of the comments in this thread. Everyone here has no idea what they're talking about. While the tengu can no longer apply 500 dps to cruisers and above at 100km the HAM fit is still really effective and contrary to what the geniuses in this thread tell you a tengu with HAMs fit can project to roughly 60km with faction ammo because it gets a double range bonus. The rest of the fit is pretty much the same.

Although, if you have to ask on the EvE-O forums whether a 100mn tengu is good and how to fit one I suggest you don't fly a 100mn tengu.


Can you show me this glorious HAM 100MN ab fit that pushes 60KM CN?

Because I am calling bullshit, as the ship does not exist.

It does 383 DPS to our T1 thorax, with CN scourge. And its range is no where near 60K. try 36- and that is with a T2 hydraulic. With Jav scourge you do get close to 60K however your damage is now 297 dps. A t1 caracal gets 294 DPS to the same target... But the catch is, caracal can actually kill the light tackle coming after it. So why am I paying so much for the tengu again?
Viribus
Aurora.
The Initiative.
#38 - 2013-07-06 07:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Viribus
God's Apples wrote:
Don't read any of the comments in this thread. Everyone here has no idea what they're talking about. While the tengu can no longer apply 500 dps to cruisers and above at 100km the HAM fit is still really effective and contrary to what the geniuses in this thread tell you a tengu with HAMs fit can project to roughly 60km with faction ammo because it gets a double range bonus. The rest of the fit is pretty much the same.

Although, if you have to ask on the EvE-O forums whether a 100mn tengu is good and how to fit one I suggest you don't fly a 100mn tengu.


It gets one range bonus, even with 3 range rigs (lol have fun trying to fit a 100mn tengu without ancils) and perfect skills, it only hits out to 45km with faction missiles

"Everyone here has no idea what they're talking about" - the voice of irony itself

EDIT: The gist is that HMLs are bad and any 100mn fit using them is likewise bad. Use RMLs or HAMs

Also 90% of the reason the 100mn tengu isn't as viable anymore is that everyone knows about it; it's not an underground novelty anymore, it's how people except a pvp tengu to be fit. You're not gonna kill dozens of lowsec scrubs in battlecruisers because no one's gonna fight you without a scimi, two rapiers, and falcon with a rack of caldari jammers

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#39 - 2013-07-06 07:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Viribus wrote:

The gist is that HMLs are bad and any 100mn fit using them is likewise bad. Use RMLs or HAMs


I just didn't do the comparison of HML tengu to RLM tengu. You're right, RMLs are flatout superior to HMLs. The little lack of range is - I guess - totally made up for with that projection. It really is a rad sad to see a tengu pushing near 400dps with RLMs against cruisers at unlinked point range :< And the fitting is suddenly way easier, and doesn't need 2 odd CN HMLs \o/

God's Apples wrote:

Although, if you have to ask on the EvE-O forums whether a 100mn tengu is good and how to fit one I suggest you don't fly a 100mn tengu.


I doubt that asking a question about a ship disqualifies you from using it. To be fair, I doubt a lot of people have (especially those that fly something different from lowsec/nullsec-flavor-of-the-month) been aware of RML-tengus, at least I haven't been - and neither are the tengus I'm shooting at :) Lucky me.
I also have asked on some forums, wether or not a certain deimos fit is good and that surely doesn't disqualify me using it. And who did you ask before you fitted up your first tengu? Did everything right from the beginning? Guess, you've been watching 'crazy tengu' then :p
Kitten Ripper
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-07-06 08:35:12 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Because I am calling bullshit, as the ship does not exist.

You are pvping with offgrid booster, pride yourself with a handful of kills, say its all because of RLM and now you call BS.

*facepalm*
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