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Freighter Tiers [Updated]
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2013-07-05 22:34:39 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:

Racial Industrial V is no longer "on the way" to flying a Freighter, so how is that consistent?


Ok then, Racial 3, advanced spaceship command 3.



If it carries ~300k and needs racial industrial to 3, why would anyone ever fly a regular industrial? Sure, ASC is ~50mil, but once you have that you're not going to lose it.

Seven days to fly this thing. Seven days training to render industrials and freighters irrelevant. (Why fly a freighter when you can put an alt in one of these in a week and just run your cargo in two loads?)

And it has slots too, right? What kind of EHP do you want? Half a freighter I assume?


Same reason people fly T1 instead of T2. Cost.


Danika Princip wrote:

As for shifting that much trit, last I checked mineral compression still existed.


Way to completely miss the point.


Cost doesn't balance anything. the reason people don't fly t2 industrials over T1s is that they're crap. The cost doesn't feature. Once they buff DSTs I'll be using my occator a hell of a lot more, and if your ship comes in, I'll be melting down all my T1s for scrap to get these new things in.

Also, if you're trying to move a million M3, use a bloody freighter like a normal person.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-07-05 23:10:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaade Silentpaw
Danika Princip wrote:


Cost doesn't balance anything. the reason people don't fly t2 industrials over T1s is that they're crap. The cost doesn't feature. Once they buff DSTs I'll be using my occator a hell of a lot more, and if your ship comes in, I'll be melting down all my T1s for scrap to get these new things in.

Also, if you're trying to move a million M3, use a bloody freighter like a normal person.


I meant T1/T2 in general, not just industrials. T1 frigates/cruisers/BCs and so on - people fly them because they're alot cheaper than their T2 counterparts.
Cost does plenty of balancing, in fact it's probably the biggest reason I started this thread to begin with.

And again, i'm not trying to move anything - you are missing the point I was making to someone else. If I was trying to move a million M3, I would indeed use a freighter - but as I said i'm trying to move anything, I was only making an example.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2013-07-05 23:17:12 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


Cost doesn't balance anything. the reason people don't fly t2 industrials over T1s is that they're crap. The cost doesn't feature. Once they buff DSTs I'll be using my occator a hell of a lot more, and if your ship comes in, I'll be melting down all my T1s for scrap to get these new things in.

Also, if you're trying to move a million M3, use a bloody freighter like a normal person.


I meant T1/T2 in general, not just industrials. T1 frigates/cruisers/BCs and so on - people fly them because they're alot cheaper than their T2 counterparts.
Cost does plenty of balancing, in fact it's probably the biggest reason I started this thread to begin with.

And again, i'm not trying to move anything - you are missing the point I was making to someone else. If I was trying to move a million M3, I would indeed use a freighter - but as I said i'm trying to move anything, I was only making an example.



I have several billion ISK. Cost would not balance these things as far as me and people like me are concerned, and your price range goes from 'fit battleship' to 'orca' anyway. Lots of people can and do afford those things.

Cost is not the only reason people fly t1 cruisers. Skill requirements, support skills and roles are all perfectly valid reasons there. There is nothing that a regular industrial does better than your ship.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-07-05 23:18:43 UTC
Tritanium 5.12/unit. 1mill m^3 = 100 000 000 units that is 512 000 000 isk worth of tritanium. Use a freighter.
Veldspar 15.13/unit 1 mill m^3 = 10 000 000 units that is 151 300 000 isk worth of veldspar. Refine and use an orca.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-07-05 23:42:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Kahega Amielden wrote:
All good points, but they ignore that the Orca's align time is also around 40 seconds, or capital-level. While great for hisec work, this makes it completely and utterly unusable for low/null work. Other industrials aren't great for low/null work save the BR, but can at least be used if you fit them properly and/or have a scout.

Stick a MWD on it. It will align in 10 seconds flat (and no stupid cloak trick needed). That is faster than any other industrial other than a blockade runner. And it still has 300K EHP with the rest of the fit given over to tank.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-07-05 23:49:32 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


Cost doesn't balance anything. the reason people don't fly t2 industrials over T1s is that they're crap. The cost doesn't feature. Once they buff DSTs I'll be using my occator a hell of a lot more, and if your ship comes in, I'll be melting down all my T1s for scrap to get these new things in.

Also, if you're trying to move a million M3, use a bloody freighter like a normal person.


I meant T1/T2 in general, not just industrials. T1 frigates/cruisers/BCs and so on - people fly them because they're alot cheaper than their T2 counterparts.
Cost does plenty of balancing, in fact it's probably the biggest reason I started this thread to begin with.

And again, i'm not trying to move anything - you are missing the point I was making to someone else. If I was trying to move a million M3, I would indeed use a freighter - but as I said i'm trying to move anything, I was only making an example.



I have several billion ISK. Cost would not balance these things as far as me and people like me are concerned, and your price range goes from 'fit battleship' to 'orca' anyway. Lots of people can and do afford those things.

Cost is not the only reason people fly t1 cruisers. Skill requirements, support skills and roles are all perfectly valid reasons there. There is nothing that a regular industrial does better than your ship.



You and 'people like you' do not represent the entire EVE playerbase.
Regular industrial would be faster and cheaper and requires less skill training. All the same points you just made.
It will ferry small loads faster than a 'mid-freighter'. The 'mid-freighter' will ferry medium loads faster than a full-size freighter, and the full-size freighter will ferry the largest loads at the slowest speeds.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2013-07-05 23:58:59 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:


You and 'people like you' do not represent the entire EVE playerbase.
Regular industrial would be faster and cheaper and requires less skill training. All the same points you just made.
It will ferry small loads faster than a 'mid-freighter'. The 'mid-freighter' will ferry medium loads faster than a full-size freighter, and the full-size freighter will ferry the largest loads at the slowest speeds.



People who can afford to fit a battleship make up a pretty large part of the playerbase. You're talking about tops six hours of ratting here.

Regular industrials don't require that much less training, the vast majority of the seven days your ship needs comes from Spaceship Command V, which everyone should have trained eventually anyway. Outside of that one skill you have about a day for industrial 3 and ASC 3, so training is hardly a balance point here.

It'd take 10 seconds to get your ship into warp with the MWD trick, and unless oyu're limiting the warp speed that renders the speed point irrelevant.

If this thing needs a week of training and is noticeably faster than a freighter, then people will just dualbox these things rather than fly proper freighters.

Would you build it out of minerals or cap parts? How much EHP would you like to see it have, roughly? How fast does it warp? Can it use the cloak+MWD trick?
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-07-06 00:23:24 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:


You and 'people like you' do not represent the entire EVE playerbase.
Regular industrial would be faster and cheaper and requires less skill training. All the same points you just made.
It will ferry small loads faster than a 'mid-freighter'. The 'mid-freighter' will ferry medium loads faster than a full-size freighter, and the full-size freighter will ferry the largest loads at the slowest speeds.



People who can afford to fit a battleship make up a pretty large part of the playerbase. You're talking about tops six hours of ratting here.

Regular industrials don't require that much less training, the vast majority of the seven days your ship needs comes from Spaceship Command V, which everyone should have trained eventually anyway. Outside of that one skill you have about a day for industrial 3 and ASC 3, so training is hardly a balance point here.

It'd take 10 seconds to get your ship into warp with the MWD trick, and unless oyu're limiting the warp speed that renders the speed point irrelevant.

If this thing needs a week of training and is noticeably faster than a freighter, then people will just dualbox these things rather than fly proper freighters.

Would you build it out of minerals or cap parts? How much EHP would you like to see it have, roughly? How fast does it warp? Can it use the cloak+MWD trick?


Jeez, i'm not a game designer. I made a simple suggestion, the balancing and minute details of the ships are up to the developers should they choose to implement them.

All i'm suggesting is that we have something to fill the massive gap between industrials and freighters. Besides the gawdamn ORCA - Which is designed for something else entirely.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#49 - 2013-07-06 00:23:40 UTC
Quote:
If this thing needs a week of training and is noticeably faster than a freighter, then people will just dualbox these things rather than fly proper freighters.


That right there is reason enough for this idea to die. Regardless of what gaps there are in size and hauling capability, there simply is not room for this mid-size freighter in the skill requirements. This is the exact reason it is so useless to train Advanced Laboratory Operation to 5.. because in the time you would spend on that, you could have a second fully prepped research alt with 9 slots instead of 1 extra. As much as I hate this idea, I have tried to formulate skill reqs that are balanced and it simply can't be done without further changes to Freighters.. which already have seen a 6d increase with Odyssey's changes.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#50 - 2013-07-06 00:25:28 UTC
Quote:


Jeez, i'm not a game designer. I made a simple suggestion, the balancing and minute details of the ships are up to the developers should they choose to implement them.

All i'm suggesting is that we have something to fill the massive gap between industrials and freighters. Besides the gawdamn ORCA - Which is designed for something else entirely.


Don't suggest an idea and then suddenly ***** out because you can't be arsed to actually think about it and flesh it out.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2013-07-06 00:36:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaade Silentpaw
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Quote:


Jeez, i'm not a game designer. I made a simple suggestion, the balancing and minute details of the ships are up to the developers should they choose to implement them.

All i'm suggesting is that we have something to fill the massive gap between industrials and freighters. Besides the gawdamn ORCA - Which is designed for something else entirely.


Don't suggest an idea and then suddenly ***** out because you can't be arsed to actually think about it and flesh it out.


I'm not backing out. I feel i've fleshed it out as much as I need to, and i'm standing by it. Miniscule details like the amount HP the ship has is up to the developers.

Essentially this debate has dissolved into my opinion vs. your opinion, and I don't see how any more fleshing out on my part is going to change that. So i'm not backing out, i'm simply not going to argue with you anymore. I still stand by the suggestion.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2013-07-06 00:38:41 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Quote:


Jeez, i'm not a game designer. I made a simple suggestion, the balancing and minute details of the ships are up to the developers should they choose to implement them.

All i'm suggesting is that we have something to fill the massive gap between industrials and freighters. Besides the gawdamn ORCA - Which is designed for something else entirely.


Don't suggest an idea and then suddenly ***** out because you can't be arsed to actually think about it and flesh it out.


I'm not backing out. I've feel i've fleshed it out as much as I need to, and i'm standing by it.



You're kind of missing literally anything that would balance it though. All you have is 'make it half a freighter', you kind of need a little bit more than that.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-07-06 00:43:04 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Quote:


Jeez, i'm not a game designer. I made a simple suggestion, the balancing and minute details of the ships are up to the developers should they choose to implement them.

All i'm suggesting is that we have something to fill the massive gap between industrials and freighters. Besides the gawdamn ORCA - Which is designed for something else entirely.


Don't suggest an idea and then suddenly ***** out because you can't be arsed to actually think about it and flesh it out.


I'm not backing out. I've feel i've fleshed it out as much as I need to, and i'm standing by it.



You're kind of missing literally anything that would balance it though. All you have is 'make it half a freighter', you kind of need a little bit more than that.


Well, like what?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-07-06 00:55:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Cost, skill requirements, bonuses from skills, align time, EhP, cargo capacity. If it can be fit, CPU and Power Grid, slot layout can it have rigs? You know important stuff like that.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2013-07-06 00:59:59 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, skill requirements, bonuses from skills, align time, EhP, cargo capacity. If it can be fit, CPU and Power Grid, slot layout can it have rigs? You know important stuff like that.



^this^. I'd also add 'minerals or cap parts', and if it can be fit, if it can use MWDs or cloaks.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-07-06 01:06:08 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, skill requirements, bonuses from skills, align time, EhP, cargo capacity. If it can be fit, CPU and Power Grid, slot layout can it have rigs? You know important stuff like that.


As I said, that's the developer's job - and i'm not a developer.
I'm making a simple suggestion to have something to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. That's it. Everything beyond that is open to discussion - which is the point of 'Features & Ideas Discussion', no?

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2013-07-06 01:13:34 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, skill requirements, bonuses from skills, align time, EhP, cargo capacity. If it can be fit, CPU and Power Grid, slot layout can it have rigs? You know important stuff like that.


As I said, that's the developer's job - and i'm not a developer.
I'm making a simple suggestion to have something to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. That's it. Everything beyond that is open to discussion - which is the point of 'Features & Ideas Discussion', no?




Yes, but there's nothing to discuss since you won't suggest anything about any of those points.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-07-06 01:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaade Silentpaw
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, skill requirements, bonuses from skills, align time, EhP, cargo capacity. If it can be fit, CPU and Power Grid, slot layout can it have rigs? You know important stuff like that.


As I said, that's the developer's job - and i'm not a developer.
I'm making a simple suggestion to have something to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. That's it. Everything beyond that is open to discussion - which is the point of 'Features & Ideas Discussion', no?




Yes, but there's nothing to discuss since you won't suggest anything about any of those points.


Well, the most basic idea I have in my head is simply a smaller, cheaper freighter. It doesn't have fittings/rigs.
It has about 1/3 - 1/2 the HP of a freighter, carries about 1/3 - 1/2 as much, costs about 1/3 - 1/2 as much.
It aligns/warps significantly faster than a full size freighter, but still significantly slower than an industrial.
I imagine the skill bonuses will be the same as a freighter, increasing cargo and agility or warp speed or whatever.
I don't have any particular suggestions beyond that, and it's only a base suggestion/somewhere to start from - as I said, completely open to discussion (and suggestion).
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#59 - 2013-07-06 01:55:12 UTC

Quote:

Well, the most basic idea I have in my head is simply a smaller, cheaper freighter. It doesn't have fittings/rigs.
It has about 1/3 - 1/2 the HP of a freighter, carries about 1/3 - 1/2 as much, costs about 1/3 - 1/2 as much.
It aligns/warps significantly faster than a full size freighter, but still significantly slower than an industrial.
I imagine the skill bonuses will be the same as a freighter, increasing cargo and agility or warp speed or whatever.
I don't have any particular suggestions beyond that, and it's only a base suggestion/somewhere to start from - as I said, completely open to discussion (and suggestion).


Completely open to fail. Until you balance the skill requirements to make freighters as relevant as these smaller sized counterparts, the whole discussion is moot.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#60 - 2013-07-06 02:04:03 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Cost, skill requirements, bonuses from skills, align time, EhP, cargo capacity. If it can be fit, CPU and Power Grid, slot layout can it have rigs? You know important stuff like that.


As I said, that's the developer's job - and i'm not a developer.
I'm making a simple suggestion to have something to bridge the gap between industrials and freighters. That's it. Everything beyond that is open to discussion - which is the point of 'Features & Ideas Discussion', no?




Yes, but there's nothing to discuss since you won't suggest anything about any of those points.


Well, the most basic idea I have in my head is simply a smaller, cheaper freighter. It doesn't have fittings/rigs.
It has about 1/3 - 1/2 the HP of a freighter, carries about 1/3 - 1/2 as much, costs about 1/3 - 1/2 as much.
It aligns/warps significantly faster than a full size freighter, but still significantly slower than an industrial.
I imagine the skill bonuses will be the same as a freighter, increasing cargo and agility or warp speed or whatever.
I don't have any particular suggestions beyond that, and it's only a base suggestion/somewhere to start from - as I said, completely open to discussion (and suggestion).



They are just trolling anyway to get you riled up.

This idea has been bought up so many times, anybody that knows anything knows this needs to be done but it's just easier to tell you to use an Orca because that's less work for them. And as far as "fleshing out" stupid crap like HP and align times, it is not a players job. That is a game designers job. They design things for use in the game, that makes it their job. This has been talked about enough in the past that really, they already know what we want. It's just a matter of getting them to implement it.