These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Gecko O'Bac
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#321 - 2011-11-08 16:52:27 UTC
Uhm where can I find the previous build stats for comparison? At a glance nothing seems to have changed.
Saikoyu
Alexylva Paradox
#322 - 2011-11-08 17:16:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Saikoyu
TL;DR, I don't think this one size fits all works in EvE. Keep the ships fast and BS killers, but make them do it in their own races way.

So, I''m not an expert on PvP or anything, but I like to think I am logical, mostly. So far I have seen that these ships are supposed to be for killing battleships and maybe capitals. I am also seeing that they are not really set up for this and they really don't match what their races should be going for, as a few other people mentioned. Here is my reasoning.

Battleships in EvE are large, heavily armed and armored, and slow. Currently the counter is another batttleship, or a fleet of lesser ships. The same goes for capitals. These new battlecruisers do not have any bonus or ability that allows them to kill battleships or capitals without taking large numbers, which is what we already have in the current battlecruisers and T2 ships.

To counter something like a battleship, you either need one of two things. Something that is fast and with enough damage to kill before it is killed via tank or gank, or something that is fast, heavily armed, and able to hit without being hit. The reasons are thus. Something that is fast and with a lot of guns can get in close, pound the battleship, and hopefully survive the return fire until the battleship is dead. Something that is fast armed and able to hit at range can kite the battleship and kill it beyond the range of the battleship, and not need a tank. Matching this up to EvE races I get the following.

The Tornado should get bonuses to weapon range and speed, so that it can dance around the edge of a battleships range and run if anything comes to help the battleship. This should also have the fastest base speed of the lot, being Minmatar, but also the lowest dps, so that it will have to dance around alot and not be able to one shot smaller ships that burn out to meet it at range.

The Oracle should get bonuses to speed and tank/gank. The Amarr are always about dishing it out and taking it, so they should be able to get in close and unleash hell. This should also be the slowest base speed but have an afterburner bonus to get a short dash. The tank/gank should be the highest, but this is a balancing act between tank and gank, though being Amarr, I would give it a good armor tank. Also, as this should be armor tanked, give it very few mid slots so that fitting a web or scram will hurt.

The Talos should get bonuses to speed and tank/gank as well. Gallente blasters are a short range weapon, and they need something good right now. This should also get a MWD bonus to make the short sprint and should be more on the gank side of the tank and gank equation. And same as the Oracle on the mid slots.

And the Naga should round out the set being long ranged and fast, but not as fast as the Tornado. Being Caldari the weapons needs to be either rails or missiles, but the damage should be lesser than the close in brawlers to keep the balance.

Also, to give these something special they should all have a third bonus of a high warp speed. None of these ships should be able by themselves to hold a target in one place, however they should be able to always chase it down. At the very least, they need to keep up with cruisers or maybe even frigates so that they can be there when the tackle lands.

Anyway, rather radical, but my two cents or how to make these ships fit in to their role of BS killers without losing what makes the races different.

Siakoyu Eblis-Kad

Sahnay
#323 - 2011-11-08 18:45:28 UTC
Please rework the Talos' cylon face and extremely pointy chin;

The look there is going too far off the bulky turret mounts and generally the rounded gallente looks;
i know, the 'chin' it's a repeat of the engine booms so there is the design sense - still it's much too big and pointy and just sticking out sorely;

Try to excel on first attempt please, since we're going to have an eight years wait for remodeling afterwards;
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2011-11-08 19:02:38 UTC
Regarding the Talos

These are the best fits I can come up with; although I have not been able test them on the test server yet in combat.

600DPS and 40K EHP and quite good tracking I think this compares to the tornado up close but again with Hybrids the problem is range projection and is a little slow if caught outside scram range.

[Talos, Armor Talos]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Tracking Enhancer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

10MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Medium Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Shield version 710 DPS only 30K EHP it is fast though

[Talos, Shield Talos]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Null L

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

I also have a 500dps 100km sniper fit with only a DC2 and 1600mm rolled tungsten for tank.

I was wondering how people felt they compared to the other Tier 3’s, are they really not competitive at all?
Captain Alcatraz
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#325 - 2011-11-08 19:26:21 UTC
Did they change the ships with todays update?

After few HP buffs and rigs I always felt that there was too much tank and not enough gank in the game. From a small gang / solo pvper POV the new BCs are a very welcome addition.

On TQ:
Canes + drakes > nanos + hacs

On SISI:
Tier 3 BCs > canes + drakes

Canes + drakes > nanos + hacs

Nanos + hacs > tier 3 BCs

Frigs + (now uber) destroyers > tier 3 BCs

The more variety, the more ganky and fast pvp the better


People panic that the tornado is OP but it's so easy to kill for a good gang of HAC, nanos or frigs that it wont be a problem, like the rest of Tier 3s. It can hardly track any of those ships while having a tank of glass. People need to get out of their drakes and canes for pvp, and those new Tier 3 BCs will do just that.

The Naga needs to focus on torps and more fitting.

The Talos needs more fitting. The oracle can fit a rack of Mega Pulses, a MWD and 1600m plate, the Talos should be able to do the same with neutrons.

Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#326 - 2011-11-08 20:48:52 UTC
Captain Alcatraz wrote:



People panic that the tornado is OP but it's so easy to kill for a good gang of HAC, nanos or frigs that it wont be a problem, like the rest of Tier 3s.





people wont be out to kill A tornado, or A Tier 3 BC. there's gonna be 5,6 or 7 tornadoes out at once. these things are dirt cheap Machariels.
Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2011-11-08 21:02:07 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:


Yeah, seriously. The DPS projection and kiting ability of a blob of nano-nagas with Cruise Missiles would be PREPOSTEROUS. If you think Drakes are bad, have a taste of 460 DPS of Rigor'd Cruise Missiles at 160km. It would be bloody overpowered, and CCP knows it.

I still think that rails should be a viable option on the Naga. Even as it stands it should now be the big man at long ranges; or at least, really long range. I'd really like to see more bonuses for the poor thing, or please please that fourth lowslot back. I hope to see a re-boost to the Naga before release.


The enemy would not need any logistics for that fight. By the time your first volley gets close to the target fleet it has already fired at least 4 times. Then primary ship when red boxed fires only 2 volleys and warps off, missiles would not do any damage unless the pilot is not paying attention at that range.

Close range missiles are one thing and viable but sniping.... from extreme ranges with cruise missiles, that fleet loses everytime.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#328 - 2011-11-08 21:15:05 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Ganth I mentioned some of the fastest and hardest hitting ships around with great possibilities of solo pvp in hostile territory and you still want something much faster and harder hitting? These are in my opinion proof that you have no objectivity and grasp of consequences. Good luck m8


Tempests and Typhoons are slow as **** (not for BS, but compared to anything smaller). Ruptures and Canes are faster but basically have to engage in web and scram range because they lack falloff bonuses. The Rupture also lacks mids for fitting a shield tank (to maintain speed) and the necessary tackle/prop mods you want for PvP.

If you're gonna argue that Canes or Ruptures are anywhere near as good for small-gang / solo pvp as Vagas/Cynabals/Lokis/etc-- any ships that are A) faster, and B) have a lethal range that extends past 15km then I don't know what to say to you :\

I'm not saying Ruptures and Canes aren't fun or can't PvP, just that other things (including now the new BCs) are infinitely better suited to it.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#329 - 2011-11-08 22:34:46 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

......................

ORACLE:

Capacitor bonus: is fine, it helps this ship deliver damage in prolonged engagements.


Hope that helps a bit


Really? that was the only reason to keep that dam cap bonus, no other race needs it and get 2 weapon bonus'

if you really want to keep that bonus then give us a third bonus for tracking or something.
Miriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#330 - 2011-11-08 23:52:56 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

......................

ORACLE:

Capacitor bonus: is fine, it helps this ship deliver damage in prolonged engagements.


Hope that helps a bit


Really? that was the only reason to keep that dam cap bonus, no other race needs it and get 2 weapon bonus'

if you really want to keep that bonus then give us a third bonus for tracking or something.


X_X people posting stuff like this just makes me sad.

Lasers do more damage than other weapon systems and the cap redux bonus is actually a damage bonus (this bonus was added to amarr ships + laser cap use increased, instead of nerfing laser damage back in whateverlongtimeago)

So you get a cap bonus(essentialy a damage bonus) AND a damage bonus, OH NOES!
Captain Alcatraz
Did he say Jump
Dock Workers
#331 - 2011-11-09 00:14:10 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
Captain Alcatraz wrote:



People panic that the tornado is OP but it's so easy to kill for a good gang of HAC, nanos or frigs that it wont be a problem, like the rest of Tier 3s.





people wont be out to kill A tornado, or A Tier 3 BC. there's gonna be 5,6 or 7 tornadoes out at once. these things are dirt cheap Machariels.


That's what I meant, few HACs, BSs, frigs or a good nano gang will kill the tornados. I've been both flying and killing tornados on SISI since they were released, and they have a ton of counters, easy to kill. People who complain must be the herp-derp ppl who only fly drakes and canes, cause most of the ships me and my corp fly for pvp wont have problem killing tornados
Tlat Ij
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#332 - 2011-11-09 00:24:26 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Cruise missiles: ... However, it they are introduced into the Naga, hybrid bonuses most likely will be removed from it.


Please do. I think it's odd that you guys are basically saying "Have some BCs that use BS weapons (except cruise missiles)". The new BC have pathetic HP (for good reason) and the Naga shield tanks so its not like its can sacrifice tank for target painters like the Golem can. And if cruise missiles still do too much damage to smaller ships for your liking then thats a "problem" that affects every ship that can use cruise missiles, not just the Naga.

We already have an entire ship class that can use torps called Stealth Bombers so cruise missiles should get some use outside of Ravens. Just don't give it an explosion velocity/radius bonus.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#333 - 2011-11-09 00:26:53 UTC
Just gonna put it out there, but the Naga is way too slow in comparison to the other tier 3 BCs. With 1 overdrive in the lows, It's got about the same speed as an Oracle with a 1600mm plate and 3x trimarks. This is just ridiculous to me.
Soporo
#334 - 2011-11-09 01:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Soporo
Quote:
Torpedo projection smiliar to Raven: even with one bonus to torpedoes, it does the same amount of damage/projection than a Raven. Adding another bonus to missile damage would make this ship greatly outperform its battleship equivalent

Why removing the torpedo explosion velocity? It was removed as it was making this ship too useful against smaller targets, which again defeats the purpose of this class.

You also have to consider in your play testing that torpedoes cannot deliver full damage output in 1v1 scenarios against other tier3 battlecruisers.

Remember the other new battlecruisers have a comparatively low signature radius (180-200) and high speed to mitigate damage output. If you want to test this ship against its natural targets, please try battleships/capitals instead


Couple things.

As others have (often) said: Raven sucks for pvp, either cruise or torp, and is mostly unused because there are always better options. So what if ithe Naga outperforms the Raven for pvp? Everyhting else does anyway. Not that any Dev will ever admit to overnerfing the expl radius/velocity of Caldari BS missile weapons back during the speed nerf.

Too usefull against smaller targets? What about the other tier 3's now?? Or are you just arbitrarily relegating the Naga to be the only one innefectual against everyhting but Caps and Structures and maybe BS? If you insist on unbonused expl velocity/radius Torps, you are doing just that.

What Torps need to reliably hit for decent damage to slowPVE Cruisers:
1) Billion isk Golem with
2) 5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
3) 7.5% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
4) 2 Rigors
5) 2 Painters (some people fit three!)
6) Tons of range bonuses + Javelins

Now ompare that to the (very few) hoops any other BS sized weapon (short or long) requires to hit PvE Cruisers, particularly in regards to those ships with tracking bonuses...

Cruise aint all that better off either.
People (dev alts and trolls) talk up the range and the very mediocre damage aplication, but never seem to mention why lolFailMissileSniping Cruise Ravens suck horribly in PvP against people who arent asleep, wanking off in the back, or dead.

They usually try to mention the Drake at this point (with no range bonuses) as if somehow 75km range fighting is identicle to THIRTY SECONDS OF FLIGHT TIME or so for Cruise out to lol 249km.

Just give the Naga freeking Rail bonuses or unbonused Cruise.
Still worrying about hitting smaller ships? The others will do better, I guarantee you, especially Pulse and AC.

Worried about lolFailMissileSniping range? Give the Naga an extra low or mid (without pre-screwing up the grid like you like to do by forcing people to use RCU 2's) and a -50% range role penalty. Oh and, as mentioned, it's speed is unbelievably pathetic.

Whatever, just drop torps please.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#335 - 2011-11-09 01:19:46 UTC
Fix the goddam large missiles those sux as much as blasters.
And after that say ,"we dont want the naga to apply too much dps vs smaller ships" then why not apply that to the tornado as well?
Oh it is matar it has to be imbalanced.... yeah...

Also which would be more fearfull 500dps cruise missile nagas fleet from which smallsign+speed +missile delay would lower it to around 30% or less or a tornado fleet each doing 8000 alpha with 500 dps insta hit dmg... yeah i know in which fleet i wouldnt like to be.

Torpedose are so useless , even if you find a bs worthy to hit, probably you would be better in another ship with another weapon system. If you want to keep torpedos sux so much vs smaller targets at least give them advantage vs bs +larger like +30% dps.

So make naga able to use rails, probably optimal+rof bonus or something usefull , blasters are not needed. Gall ships for that anyway.

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#336 - 2011-11-09 02:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
The Talos really wants to be shieldtanked (since as a blasterboat it needs speed / agility). Swap a low for (preferably) 2 mids (one if you're feeling stingy)-- this will let it fit a minimal shield tank, plus a scram and a web, both of which it needs to hit anything smaller than a titan with blasters' terrible tracking.

So far the only fit I've flown thats remotely useable has been an electron blaster (for the tracking), passive armor tanked setup with a scram, web, and dual-prop. It's literally the only thing that is at all effective in PvP -- the scram / web are required to track things, the armor tank is the only way to get any ehp out of the ship with 3/4 of the mids used on tackle / prop (1 LSE does not a tank make), and dual-prop is the only way to stay in scram range if you're lucky enough to start your fight there.

This setup, while not as utterly useless as a shieldtanked neutron setup (which is fast and agile enough to close range to scram a target, but then can't track it at all and promptly dies due to having only 18k ehp), is still pretty bad. The ****-poor range of electrons, combined with the lower speed and agility of an armor tanked fit, means a few things. First, its often impossible to snag an initial tackle because you're slow. Second, even if you manage to burn into scram range before your opponent can burn away / warp out, by the time you've got there you're already down 1/3 of your armor. By the time you close even further and start doing good damage to your target, you're down to 1/2 armor. Half the time, the target then proceeds to kill you because your dps took so long to apply, isn't that great anyway, and your buffer tank isn't that big. Like I said, a passive armor buffer fit is more useful than a shield setup (which is completely worthless) but is still quite suicidal to fight with and vastly inferior to any Tornado / Oracle fit.

Other people have suggested I use rail fits, but the tracking on those is even worse and I can pilot Tornados and Oracles, both of which will outperform a rail Talos using closerange guns w/ LR ammo loaded.

My advice is to make the Talos a shield-tanked ship. Re-work its slot layout so it can fit a scram, web, two tanking mods and a prop mod in the mids, at least. Keep its speed / agility: it needs them.



The Tornado is quite fun to fly, and I don't think its nearly as OP as stupid pubbies keep crying that it is. It's nicely constructed-- it has a role and its bonuses and stats suit that role-- it's fast, it does lots of damage to BCs / BS, can hit cruisers and smaller but only at med-long to extra-long ranges and/or when the small ship has low/no transversal. Up close it gets torn to bits by smaller ships, since it can't track them and has no drones (as it should be). It's fast and agile enough to work well in a roaming / HAC gang and will give newer players a supremely useful / practical T1 hull to play with. Keep as is.



The Oracle also seemed like an excellent ship-- it makes a nice mini-pulsepoc. Brilliant work. Keep as is.



Naga: everyone says it sucks. I wouldn't know, because I didn't fly it :3

(well, actually I did, but only to see if it made a better blaster boat than the Talos-- it does, incidentally, since it can use blasters at long enough range that the tracking on them is sufficient to actually hit targets, something the Talos can't do :\)
Daraja
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#337 - 2011-11-09 02:43:51 UTC
Number in [ ] is tier 2 BC speed.

Talos 220 [145]
Thorax 180

Tornado 225 [165]
Rupture 192

Oracle 200 [150]
Maller 164

Naga 195 [140]
Moa 164


Why are Tier 3 BCs faster than the Tier 3 Cruisers?

This means these new BCs will be able to keep tranversal low via their speed advantage and annihilate them. Tier 1 and Tier 2 BCs already make Tech 1 cruisers virtually obsolete, the only advantage the cruiser had was speed and agility. Now the Tier 3 BC actually takes the speed advantage away from that as well.



Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#338 - 2011-11-09 02:50:07 UTC
Daraja wrote:
Number in [ ] is tier 2 BC speed.

Talos 220 [145]
Thorax 180

Tornado 225 [165]
Rupture 192

Oracle 200 [150]
Maller 164

Naga 195 [140]
Moa 164


Why are Tier 3 BCs faster than the Tier 3 Cruisers?

This means these new BCs will be able to keep tranversal low via their speed advantage and annihilate them. Tier 1 and Tier 2 BCs already make Tech 1 cruisers virtually obsolete, the only advantage the cruiser had was speed and agility. Now the Tier 3 BC actually takes the speed advantage away from that as well.






T1 cruisers have been more or less useless for a long ass time now. They're good for funny gimmicks and slosh ops and thats about it. How about instead of complaining you get excited about how there's going to be a new set of ships that are only marginally more skill / isk intensive than cruisers, but will be super useful for PvP?
Daraja
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#339 - 2011-11-09 03:05:07 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:


T1 cruisers have been more or less useless for a long ass time now. They're good for funny gimmicks and slosh ops and thats about it. How about instead of complaining you get excited about how there's going to be a new set of ships that are only marginally more skill / isk intensive than cruisers, but will be super useful for PvP?


I don't disagree, I'm just asking why if they are already useless, make them more so by taking away the only advantage they had over their BC cousins.

I prefer a game of options and had hopes that cruisers would be the counter to tier 3 BCs, as they became the counter to Tier 1 & 2 BCs.

Kiev Duran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#340 - 2011-11-09 03:21:53 UTC
Daraja wrote:
Number in [ ] is tier 2 BC speed.

Talos 220 [145]
Thorax 180

Tornado 225 [165]
Rupture 192

Oracle 200 [150]
Maller 164

Naga 195 [140]
Moa 164


Why are Tier 3 BCs faster than the Tier 3 Cruisers?

This means these new BCs will be able to keep tranversal low via their speed advantage and annihilate them. Tier 1 and Tier 2 BCs already make Tech 1 cruisers virtually obsolete, the only advantage the cruiser had was speed and agility. Now the Tier 3 BC actually takes the speed advantage away from that as well.






You show me a pilot that flies a Moa, and I'll show you one that has no grasp of EVE combat.

I for one am excited that the Caldari might get a combat option that isn't a Drake; because everything else in our arsenal (that doesn't make use of ECM) is either weak to the point of uselessness, or out preformed at it's role in every single way by another race's ship. I'm also quite frustrated that it looks like the Naga will be out preformed at it's role in every single way by another race's ship.