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Freighter Tiers [Updated]
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Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#21 - 2013-07-05 20:40:36 UTC
Quote:
It's not that the idea itself is a bad one, it's that in terms of priority this just isn't important when there are numerous hulls (Mostly T2/Pirate Faction at this point) that are ******* broken. There are modules in the same situation as well. I say nay to this because I would rather see the current hulls fixed and being used over new hulls being introduced when there are already ships that cover the purpose of moving cargo. CCP has made great lengths to refocus and prioritize gameplay and Freighters don't really do much besides docking, warping to gates or jumping to cynos. Not very pertinent if you ask me.


This is a dumb argument. The fact that current ships can fulfill the role of "moving cargo" (as vague as that is) is not an argument not to fix other stuff. I could just as easily say that the Worm is ****, but there's no reason to fix it because there are other ships like the Daredevil, Drake and Rupture that fulfill the role of shooting things effectively. There is a gigantic gap between freighter and industrial and the Orca is barely a reasonable substitute. There is also a certain t2 industrial that would fulfill this role perfectly (The DST) that is otherwise pretty useless in its current state.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-07-05 20:43:41 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#23 - 2013-07-05 20:59:11 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!


All good points, but they ignore that the Orca's align time is also around 40 seconds, or capital-level. While great for hisec work, this makes it completely and utterly unusable for low/null work. Other industrials aren't great for low/null work save the BR, but can at least be used if you fit them properly and/or have a scout.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2013-07-05 21:04:03 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!


All good points, but they ignore that the Orca's align time is also around 40 seconds, or capital-level. While great for hisec work, this makes it completely and utterly unusable for low/null work. Other industrials aren't great for low/null work save the BR, but can at least be used if you fit them properly and/or have a scout.



MWD trick cuts that down quite nicely. Or a mate with webs.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-07-05 21:06:50 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



1. An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

2. If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

3. How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!


1. Here it comes, repetition number 4 - orca cannot carry 3-400k = not middle-ground, not enough.

2. Not necessarily.

3. The orca requires a different set of skills. Mining/Leadership-based skills. For cargo hauling, this is pointless.
The 'mini-freighter' will require the same set of skills as industrials and freighters - skills which can be used with other cargo ships and will most likely already be trained by interested parties, and will be much more appealing to people who have not yet trained them.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#26 - 2013-07-05 21:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Balthazar Lestrane
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
It's not that the idea itself is a bad one, it's that in terms of priority this just isn't important when there are numerous hulls (Mostly T2/Pirate Faction at this point) that are ******* broken. There are modules in the same situation as well. I say nay to this because I would rather see the current hulls fixed and being used over new hulls being introduced when there are already ships that cover the purpose of moving cargo. CCP has made great lengths to refocus and prioritize gameplay and Freighters don't really do much besides docking, warping to gates or jumping to cynos. Not very pertinent if you ask me.


This is a dumb argument. The fact that current ships can fulfill the role of "moving cargo" (as vague as that is) is not an argument not to fix other stuff. I could just as easily say that the Worm is ****, but there's no reason to fix it because there are other ships like the Daredevil, Drake and Rupture that fulfill the role of shooting things effectively. There is a gigantic gap between freighter and industrial and the Orca is barely a reasonable substitute. There is also a certain t2 industrial that would fulfill this role perfectly (The DST) that is otherwise pretty useless in its current state.


"The fact that current ships can fulfill the role of "moving cargo" (as vague as that is) is not an argument not to fix other stuff."

There's nothing "broken" about the current hauling ships, with the exception of the DSTs and the lack of dedicated holds on Blockade Runners. The Worm needs to be fixed because when you put it alongside comparable hulls it fails to perform on the same level. Why would I want to put my favor towards CCP spending development time on new, redundant hulls over old broken ones? Freighters, Orcas and Industrials do not fail to perform in their intended roles. So what exactly is being fixed by introducing this mini-freighter? A gap? I don't see that as being broken. However large the gap is, it's there for a reason. EVE is a communal game and freighters are designed to support corporations/alliances over individuals. Why should CCP try to cater to individuals? This is an MMO FFS.

If you bothered at all to read my earlier post, I said it would be more than fine to have DSTs fulfill this new role but you have take into account the role they are currently failing to excel at. Do we need a brick tank hauler that can move cargo in dangerous space? How do you come to the conclusion that no, we don't need that type of hull? Usage? Capability? I don't see any arguments why turning Deep Space Transports into mini-freighters is better than making them excel at being Deep Space Transports when adding these hulls doesn't inherently "fix" anything, it will just make YOU happy.

I also see no argument for why this should be a priority over ships that are already seeded and not being used. You can spout the "I want it because of reasons" bullshit until the second decade is over but until I see a valid argument that merits favoring new hulls over old ones, I'll continue to throw my support against this idea.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-07-05 21:30:14 UTC
1. A cargo fit orca can hold 132,713m^3 of general cargo and has a 400,000m^3 for ships. That is plenty of room for a midrange freighter.

2. Yes

3. If it uses the same skills as freighters, then use a freighter. Don't like that price tag, the orca is about half.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2013-07-05 21:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Danika Princip
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



1. An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

2. If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

3. How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!


1. Here it comes, repetition number 4 - orca cannot carry 3-400k = not middle-ground, not enough.

2. Not necessarily.

3. The orca requires a different set of skills. Mining/Leadership-based skills. For cargo hauling, this is pointless.
The 'mini-freighter' will require the same set of skills as industrials and freighters - skills which can be used with other cargo ships and will most likely already be trained by interested parties, and will be much more appealing to people who have not yet trained them.



Right, so you want JF cargogbay, in a hull that takes less than three weeks to train, costs what, one, two hundred million, and doesn't divert from other cargo hauling skills, whatever those are.

Well then. That rules out orcas, buffed DSTs, freighters themselves, any reasonable attempt CCP may make at balancing a new ship, would obsolete the current industrial line entirely and leave DSTs even less relevant than they currently are, just so you can haul around a couple of battleship hulls or whatever it is you're trying to do rather than just train something for a couple of weeks and make two runs.

How long do you think your new ship class should take to train for, what skills would it use (IE racial industrial, racial freighter, something new?) how much would you like to see it cost, and how would you avoid making anything smaller than it irrelevant?
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-07-05 21:50:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



1. An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

2. If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

3. How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!


1. Here it comes, repetition number 4 - orca cannot carry 3-400k = not middle-ground, not enough.

2. Not necessarily.

3. The orca requires a different set of skills. Mining/Leadership-based skills. For cargo hauling, this is pointless.
The 'mini-freighter' will require the same set of skills as industrials and freighters - skills which can be used with other cargo ships and will most likely already be trained by interested parties, and will be much more appealing to people who have not yet trained them.



How long do you think your new ship class should take to train for, what skills would it use (IE racial industrial, racial freighter, something new?) how much would you like to see it cost, and how would you avoid making anything smaller than it irrelevant?


Maybe require racial industrial V (similar time as Orca - in more relevant skills which also allow you to use transport ships, rather than waste points in things like mining/leadership). The price tag of 3-600mil makes smaller ships more practical for smaller jobs. If you need bigger, go for freighter.
As stated from the beginning, it is simply a middle-ground.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#30 - 2013-07-05 21:51:55 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.



1. An orca with T1 rigs gets nearly 93k cargo, plus 40km fleet hanger, plus the ship bay, plus the ore bay. How much more do you want? it's more than double any industrial if you include the fleet hanger, or do you class 'more than double' as a small boost?

2. If you want a middle ground between industrials and freighters, it's going to come in at around half the cost of a freighter. That's going to be in the 7-800 mil range, so about the price of an orca really.

3. How long do you want it to take to train into? Half the time of a freighter sound okay? That's going to be eighteen days. Oh, look at that, the same time it takes to get into an orca!


1. Here it comes, repetition number 4 - orca cannot carry 3-400k = not middle-ground, not enough.

2. Not necessarily.

3. The orca requires a different set of skills. Mining/Leadership-based skills. For cargo hauling, this is pointless.
The 'mini-freighter' will require the same set of skills as industrials and freighters - skills which can be used with other cargo ships and will most likely already be trained by interested parties, and will be much more appealing to people who have not yet trained them.



How long do you think your new ship class should take to train for, what skills would it use (IE racial industrial, racial freighter, something new?) how much would you like to see it cost, and how would you avoid making anything smaller than it irrelevant?


Maybe require racial industrial V (similar time as Orca - in more relevant skills which also allow you to use transport ships, rather than waste points in things like mining/leadership). The price tag of 3-600mil makes smaller ships more practical for smaller jobs. If you need bigger, go for freighter.
As stated from the beginning, it is simply a middle-ground.


Racial Industrial V is no longer "on the way" to flying a Freighter, so how is that consistent?
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-07-05 21:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaade Silentpaw
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


3. If it uses the same skills as freighters, then use a freighter. Don't like that price tag, the orca is about half.


How many times does this point need to be put across?
The freighter costs TOO MUCH
The orca requires a DIFFERENT SKILL SET
The orca costs half as much as a freighter, but does not CARRY half as much - It is a different class of ship designed for a different purpose.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-07-05 21:56:31 UTC
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:

Racial Industrial V is no longer "on the way" to flying a Freighter, so how is that consistent?


Ok then, Racial 3, advanced spaceship command 3.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-07-05 21:57:30 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


3. If it uses the same skills as freighters, then use a freighter. Don't like that price tag, the orca is about half.


How many times does this point need to be put across?
The freighter costs TOO MUCH
The orca requires a DIFFERENT SKILL SET
The orca costs half as much as a freighter, but does not CARRY half as much.

If you have so much stuff to move that an orca is too small, then a freighter is what to use and if you have that much stuff to warrant the use of something larger than a orca, a freighter should not be too hard to come up with the funds for.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-07-05 22:04:50 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


3. If it uses the same skills as freighters, then use a freighter. Don't like that price tag, the orca is about half.


How many times does this point need to be put across?
The freighter costs TOO MUCH
The orca requires a DIFFERENT SKILL SET
The orca costs half as much as a freighter, but does not CARRY half as much.

If you have so much stuff to move that an orca is too small, then a freighter is what to use and if you have that much stuff to warrant the use of something larger than a orca, a freighter should not be too hard to come up with the funds for.


That's utter nonsense.
So if I have say, 1 000 000 m3 of veldspar/tritanium to haul (very common scenario by the way), I must also have billions to spend on a freighter?
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-07-05 22:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


3. If it uses the same skills as freighters, then use a freighter. Don't like that price tag, the orca is about half.


How many times does this point need to be put across?
The freighter costs TOO MUCH
The orca requires a DIFFERENT SKILL SET
The orca costs half as much as a freighter, but does not CARRY half as much.

If you have so much stuff to move that an orca is too small, then a freighter is what to use and if you have that much stuff to warrant the use of something larger than a orca, a freighter should not be too hard to come up with the funds for.


That's utter nonsense.
So if I have say, 1 000 000 m3 of veldspar/tritanium to haul (very common scenario by the way), I must also have billions to spend on a freighter?

That is a poor example as a tanked intron mk V can carry 10k worth of stuff.
And the Orca has a 50 000 m^3 ore hold.
Edit: I Misread 1mill m^3 /Facepalm.
But you want a ship that costs about half of a freighter but can only carry 1/4 of that? Makes no sense.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2013-07-05 22:18:18 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:

Racial Industrial V is no longer "on the way" to flying a Freighter, so how is that consistent?


Ok then, Racial 3, advanced spaceship command 3.



If it carries ~300k and needs racial industrial to 3, why would anyone ever fly a regular industrial? Sure, ASC is ~50mil, but once you have that you're not going to lose it.

Seven days to fly this thing. Seven days training to render industrials and freighters irrelevant. (Why fly a freighter when you can put an alt in one of these in a week and just run your cargo in two loads?)

And it has slots too, right? What kind of EHP do you want? Half a freighter I assume?



As for shifting that much trit, last I checked mineral compression still existed.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-07-05 22:27:12 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:

Racial Industrial V is no longer "on the way" to flying a Freighter, so how is that consistent?


Ok then, Racial 3, advanced spaceship command 3.



If it carries ~300k and needs racial industrial to 3, why would anyone ever fly a regular industrial? Sure, ASC is ~50mil, but once you have that you're not going to lose it.

Seven days to fly this thing. Seven days training to render industrials and freighters irrelevant. (Why fly a freighter when you can put an alt in one of these in a week and just run your cargo in two loads?)

And it has slots too, right? What kind of EHP do you want? Half a freighter I assume?


Same reason people fly T1 instead of T2. Cost.


Danika Princip wrote:

As for shifting that much trit, last I checked mineral compression still existed.


Way to completely miss the point.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-07-05 22:28:05 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:


3. If it uses the same skills as freighters, then use a freighter. Don't like that price tag, the orca is about half.


How many times does this point need to be put across?
The freighter costs TOO MUCH
The orca requires a DIFFERENT SKILL SET
The orca costs half as much as a freighter, but does not CARRY half as much.

If you have so much stuff to move that an orca is too small, then a freighter is what to use and if you have that much stuff to warrant the use of something larger than a orca, a freighter should not be too hard to come up with the funds for.


That's utter nonsense.
So if I have say, 1 000 000 m3 of veldspar/tritanium to haul (very common scenario by the way), I must also have billions to spend on a freighter?

That is a poor example as a tanked intron mk V can carry 10k worth of stuff.
And the Orca has a 50 000 m^3 ore hold.


1 000 000 = One million.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-07-05 22:31:41 UTC
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:

1 000 000 = One million.

Yes I misread, I put an edit in to my post stating that.

Still if you want to move that much efficiently use an freighter they were designed for mass hauling.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Infinite Force
#40 - 2013-07-05 22:32:02 UTC
I believe that this is the thread you're looking for (I didn't see it posted already).

Personally, I'd love to see a 'mid-freighter'. You don't always need a freighter's worth of space & speed.

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