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t2 Pulse or t2 beam on a Harbringer?
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Whitehound
#21 - 2013-07-04 17:32:01 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Scorch out to 35 means you can apply DPS out of point range (because you dont have to always be pointing the target) it also allows you to apply damage on tackle quicker killing it or forcing it off and allows you to start applying damage to things faster than you quicker helping you win the DPS race.

Also, TEs help tracking which again helps against tackle.

(Also yes your beam fit was terrible and your pulse fit sub-optimal).

The tracking bonus is only 10%. At close range does this not make a difference of more than 1km while you are giving up 10% of DPS for an entire 26km.

Honestly, if I was to judge the kite fittings then I'd have to say these are terrible. You kite better in Minmatar ships any time of the day. The shields of these wannabe Minnies get hammered by lasers, hybrids and drones. The only real chance you have is against small stuff (...) and Caldari pilots who do not get that you are shield tanked and so do not realize they need to switch to EM or thermal missiles. With this in mind can I see why you want to get as much range out of the Pulse Lasers, because you are just nowhere safe and need to run fast.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-07-04 18:46:06 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Do not use it. AB+long range turret is part of a tactic and if you cannot appreciate tactics then you can also not appreciate fittings, but are stuck in your ways.

Reasons need to make sense and need to be within the context of a fitting if no other context was given. Without a context or a random context is all reasoning random and perhaps terrible, and with it become all fittings unreasonable and terrible. One could speculate the reason is to make a loss, and it would make it a good or perhaps a bad fitting.


I agree. Your fittings should be made in with some context, so we can all understand them better.

Tell us all about the context, then we might understand the fitting better, and we can all learn to be as good at fitting ships as you obviously are.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#23 - 2013-07-04 19:35:09 UTC
Whitehound is correct when he states a third heat sink is better than a second TE, with scorch it already shoots reliably out to long point range and anything after that is irrelevant since it will just warp off. If in a gang and target is pointed already then still dps is more beneficial to your gang than just you having a bit more range.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Whitehound
#24 - 2013-07-04 22:32:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Aralieus wrote:
Whitehound is correct when he states a third heat sink is better than a second TE, with scorch it already shoots reliably out to long point range and anything after that is irrelevant since it will just warp off. If in a gang and target is pointed already then still dps is more beneficial to your gang than just you having a bit more range.

I was afraid I am now only getting trolled to hell and back ... Thanks for agreeing with me.

A third heat sink may not fit, because of the CPU requirement. If so then there is still an elegant solution to come out with a sound fitting: to use another nano or an overdrive instead.

Anyone still worried about the last few kilometres beyond the point range may not appreciate the increased speed/agility and likes to have a 2nd TE. But put it this way: why only extend the turrets' optimal when one can move the entire ship faster together with point, neut and turrets!?

Not to mention more speed helps with transversal problems similar to a bonus to tracking. If one uses a nano (hullpoint penalty) or an overdrive (cargospace penalty) is a matter of preference:

[low-slots]
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Overdrive Injector System II or 2nd Nanofiber Internal Structure II or 3rd Heat Sink II

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#25 - 2013-07-04 22:49:31 UTC
[Harbinger, Kiter]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Damage Control II
Power Diagnostic System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
[empty high slot]

Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Medium Low Friction Nozzle Joints I


Valkyrie II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5


This is a solid fit I have actually used in combat and it can handle many different pvp engagement and come out on top or at least still intact (running away). However, I would never use this against any long reaching laser boats, they hurt...alot.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#26 - 2013-07-05 07:58:06 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Quote:
Why would you want the extra range when you already shoot out to point range with only the optimal when you can have more DPS?


Because you might be overheating your point.
Because you might have loki links.
Because someone else might be pointing the target, and you might want to stay further from the target to reduce incoming damage.

Lots of reasons.

p.s. your beam pvp fit is absolutely terrible.

Do not use it. AB+long range turret is part of a tactic and if you cannot appreciate tactics then you can also not appreciate fittings, but are stuck in your ways.


I too really enjoy getting horribly blobbed, being outDPSed by everything, being completely unable to dictate range and having terrible tracking.

TLDR, anybody that thinks DPS beyond 24-28 is useless has no experience in real PVP scenarios and anybody that thinks you have to hold point on a target 100% of the time in an engagement has equal lack of PVP experience.

Whitehounds fits are bad, that one with an empty high three heatsinks and no tank rigs will get soloed by a T1 frig and the other fits listed are good.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#27 - 2013-07-05 11:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Chessur
[Harbinger, New Setup 1]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

So op doesn't get confused- This is the proper shield fit PvP harb. Use it well, and kite things to death. To be quite frank though, the harbinger has lost most of its appeal to other ships. Tier 3 B/Cs have really eclipsed most of the BC's. Even dual nanod and linked harbinger is quite slow, and its projection (37K with my fit) is a bit underwhelming in most circumstance. But as long as you know your limitations, its an ok ship to fly.

For example- this gang fit oracle:

[Oracle, New Setup 1]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

900 DPS out to 70, 1800M/S unheat MWD speed. This thing is a monster. Its tracking, and transversal mitigating due to its high speed, makes this one of the most dangerous small gang damage boats in existence (eclipsing the talos by far)
Whitehound
#28 - 2013-07-05 12:31:43 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
...
Do not use it. AB+long range turret is part of a tactic and if you cannot appreciate tactics then you can also not appreciate fittings, but are stuck in your ways.

I too really enjoy getting horribly blobbed, being outDPSed by everything, being completely unable to dictate range and having terrible tracking. ...

You are making my point. You enjoy certain tactics and others you do not enjoy, because these are too difficult for you. Winning while out-blobbing others is easy.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#29 - 2013-07-05 12:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Danny John-Peter
Whitehound wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
...
Do not use it. AB+long range turret is part of a tactic and if you cannot appreciate tactics then you can also not appreciate fittings, but are stuck in your ways.

I too really enjoy getting horribly blobbed, being outDPSed by everything, being completely unable to dictate range and having terrible tracking. ...

You are making my point. You enjoy certain tactics and others you do not enjoy, because these are too difficult for you. Winning while out-blobbing others is easy.


Being terrible is pretty hard for me yeah.

Edit; Lets look at this way.

Please inform me of the tactic behind that fit.
Vaihto Ehto
#30 - 2013-07-05 12:38:18 UTC
Pulse for PVP, Beams for PVE just like in most Amarr boats.

Why would you not use an alt to post on the forums?
Whitehound
#31 - 2013-07-05 12:48:46 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Being terrible is pretty hard for me yeah.

Sucking up to those who dominate you is what I find terrible.

I rather fight out-numbered with my back against the wall, rowing backwards, and dodging attacks. I do enjoy an easy win, too, but they tend to make me bitter.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#32 - 2013-07-05 12:54:06 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Being terrible is pretty hard for me yeah.

Sucking up to those who dominate you is what I find terrible.

I rather fight out-numbered with my back against the wall, rowing backwards, and dodging attacks. I do enjoy an easy win, too, but they tend to make me bitter.


Thanks for that detailed account of the tactics involved mate.

By the by, your killboard really reflects your fantastic PVP history.
Whitehound
#33 - 2013-07-05 13:29:22 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Being terrible is pretty hard for me yeah.

Sucking up to those who dominate you is what I find terrible.

I rather fight out-numbered with my back against the wall, rowing backwards, and dodging attacks. I do enjoy an easy win, too, but they tend to make me bitter.


Thanks for that detailed account of the tactics involved mate.

By the by, your killboard really reflects your fantastic PVP history.

I was only stating my preference and was not giving you any advise with my comment. You seem to be bitter yourself...

Anything on topic? Any questions, or are we done here?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#34 - 2013-07-05 15:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Ok, I'm not going to wade into the Whitehound PVP ab beam Harbinger debate because Deacon only flies the Proph. Straight

Oh **** it, yes I will because I have another character that have extensive Amarr pvp experience.P Sorry Whitehound, but any PVP ship that fits an ab (or no prop mod even) had better be an AHAC in an AHAC fleet, or a solo frig sitting on a warpin to some room and fitting a scram, or a cockbag thrasher, or something specialized like that. An ab is not going to save or be useful to a Harby in almost any pvp situation (notice I did not say never, but probabilities are very very low).

As for beams I do not agree with the general consensus that they are useless. If your BC gang is sporting ranged dps with some other dedicated tackle then sure, do a nano'd shield Harby with beams. Otherwise pulse II with scorch is almost always better. If you do not have tech II pulses then it is more of a tossup but still probably in favor of the pulses.

As for PVE, which will probably be level 3 missions, at low skills a tech I beam Harby is better than a tech I pulse Harby. Range is very nice to have in missions. Chasing after every rat to apply your pulses is a time waste. Better to just melt them from range. Especially if your tanking skills still need more training time.

If you do have medium pulse spec trained then Scorch is available and pulses become wonderful again. However, know your missions. If it is something like The Blockade, a mission with rats spawns at long range, beams will still be better. Or if you are facing Sansha and can expect heavy range TD then beams become more attractive.

edit - also title says HARBRINGER. Empress, I bring you my Har (dee har har) Big smile

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Whitehound
#35 - 2013-07-05 15:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Deacon Abox wrote:
Ok, I'm not going to wade into the Whitehound PVP ab beam Harbinger debate because Deacon only flies the Proph. Straight

Oh **** it, yes I will because I have another character that have extensive Amarr pvp experience.P Sorry Whitehound, but any PVP ship that fits an ab (or no prop mod even) had better be an AHAC in an AHAC fleet...

You got me intrigued. How does an AHAC fleet with no prop mod work exactly?!

...

I hope you have realized that it needs the AB on the AHAC to shrug off missile damage, to force opponents into using MWDs, and to have a high transversal with a small signature.

Edit:
Forget that I asked. I got the answer myself. It is by blobbing, right?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-07-05 15:30:30 UTC
Whitehound, quit trolling everyone and just explain to us all why Afterburners and long range turrets is a good idea in your opinion.
Whitehound
#37 - 2013-07-05 16:21:54 UTC
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Whitehound, quit trolling everyone and just explain to us all why Afterburners and long range turrets is a good idea in your opinion.

I did. It is right in the comment above yours.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#38 - 2013-07-05 17:13:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Whitehound, quit trolling everyone and just explain to us all why Afterburners and long range turrets is a good idea in your opinion.

I did. It is right in the comment above yours.


No you didn't answer it. You are comparing AHAC to harbi. What was asked is this:

Why are you a proponent of an AB + long guns on ships hulls? I see you advocating the ab rail thorax, and now the ab beam harb. Why do you think they are good? What merit do you think these ships serve you in a pvp situation?

I can tell you flat out that they fail in a number of ways:

1. Solo- your not fast enough to handle light tackle / cruisers coming to grab you with brawling setups

2. Sniping- again you don't have enough range / nor dps to snipe with these ships as neither have bonus to optimal / falloff using Medium guns

3. Blobbing- would work here, as you can use anything provided you have enough ships and ewar to back you up.

So I am curious, what is your thinking?
Uppsy Daisy
State War Academy
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-07-05 18:39:15 UTC
AHAC gangs fly in big fleets, fit plates, and are usually zealots with pulse lasers and scorch.

They are not fail fit beam laser harbingers, with self reps and pointless reactive hardeners.

They do both have an Ab though so at least you got that right.
Whitehound
#40 - 2013-07-05 19:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Chessur wrote:
No you didn't answer it. You are comparing AHAC to harbi. What was asked is this:

Why are you a proponent of an AB + long guns on ships hulls? I see you advocating the ab rail thorax, and now the ab beam harb. Why do you think they are good? What merit do you think these ships serve you in a pvp situation? ...

Yes, it does answer it. Upsy Daisy asked me for my opinion.

The merit depends on the pvp situation and is different for everybody. You for example have limited two situations down to expected losses. How can you win when you expect to lose? You have already lost before you have tried. The merit would be that you make another loss and can hate yourself for having used somebody else's fitting. But I do not really know.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
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