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Freighter Tiers [Updated]
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Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-07-05 04:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaade Silentpaw
Please show your support for this suggestion by liking or posting to indicate so - Thanks! =3

Update:

The suggestion is now to have 3 tiers of Freighter.

A small freighter with 1/3 the cargo capacity and EHP of the current freighters will be slightly faster than mid freighters. Cost would be around 5-700mil.

A medium freighter with 1/2 the cargo capacity and EHP of the current freighters and will be slightly faster than large freighters.
Cost would be 7-900mil.

And the large freighter, which would be the freighters we have now. Cost at the moment is around 900mil-1.3bil, which is what i've based the other 2 tiers on.

All freighters will have no fitting/rig slots, and require the same skills (Or could be separated by Freighter I, II and III)

Please post any suggestions you might want to add, or if you can see flaws and so on.

Thanks =3

(I've also had an Idea for an ORE faction freighter - which would have a massive cargo hold (considerably higher than current freighter cargo holds) but can only carry ore/compressed/refined minerals. This would require the same skills as other freighters, but with Ore Industrial rather than racial Industrial) Please let it be known if you think this is a good/bad/pointless idea and why)


Original post:


I'm wondering if there's ever been talk of a middle-ground between Industrial/Transport Ships and Freighter/Jump Freighters coming into the game in the past?
To me personally, the gap between the 2 classes seems rather extreme in terms of scale and especially cost - and I think it would be nice to have something in between.

(I've no idea whether or not this has been suggested/discussed before, so please forgive me if so.)
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#2 - 2013-07-05 05:11:45 UTC
Ib4 Orca.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-07-05 05:29:36 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Ib4 Orca.


Orca isn't really a middle-ground though.
It requires a whole different set of skills - it's physical size and speed is much closer to that of a freighter, yet it's cargohold is much closer to that of an industrial.
It's a different class of ship designed for a different purpose - i'm talking something that is designed to carry cargo.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-07-05 07:38:05 UTC
There was a thread posted somewhere about making frigate, cruiser, and bs-sized haulers with variable cargo sizes to show a more liner progression. I'd go show your support for that
Humera Hekard
Hekard Industries Inc.
#5 - 2013-07-05 09:51:54 UTC
Paikis wrote:
Ib4 Orca.


And yet the Orca, being an Industrial Command Ship, is far from the middle ground of being in between a maxed out industrial (Iteron V 38k-ish) and a freighter (900k+). And I don't count JF's into the mix since they are sort of a different species of "fish" when it comes to skill requirements and purpose/use.

A single dedicated cargo space of 200-400k is what most people would look for to cover the gap - a mini-freighter of sorts.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-07-05 09:56:38 UTC
I greatly support this. Something in the middle would be wonderful, and something that didn't require the same length of skill training as a freighter either. or (old) Orca train time.

The maximum that can be squeezed out of an industrial is still under 50Km3, which is less than a packaged BS, while freighters start at around 800Kms+. Something that starts at around 150-200K would be great, Maybe some sort of baby-freighter. A bit tanky, with very limited fitting options. I know the Jump Freighters have holds starting around 200K+, but that's because of their jump capabilities and are very skill intensive and 'hella expensive.

The normal cargo ships are officially referred to as Industrials, and the big one Freighters, but why not a new middle class labeled Haulers?

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-07-05 11:05:33 UTC
Yes please.

Add a mini freighter with half the hit points so they can be ganked with half the people

luckily 200k is still PLENTY of isk value

also make the mini freighter t2 to so it drops some better salvage

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#8 - 2013-07-05 12:05:27 UTC
Orcas take 17 days to skill into now that Odyssey brought the new skill changes and they cost a fraction of what a T1 Freighter does.. what more do you want?

According to EVE-Central the average price of an Orca is 716.90 million ISK. Let's look at Providences now.. average price is 1.3 billion ISK. Not only are Orcas A LOT more versatile than your standard freighter (can move fitted ships, has dedicated ore bay for you carebears out there) it costs almost half of what a Tech 1 Freighter does..

So I will repeat myself.

What more could you want?
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-07-05 12:11:20 UTC
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Orcas take 17 days to skill into now that Odyssey brought the new skill changes and they cost a fraction of what a T1 Freighter does.. what more do you want?

According to EVE-Central the average price of an Orca is 716.90 million ISK. Let's look at Providences now.. average price is 1.3 billion ISK. Not only are Orcas A LOT more versatile than your standard freighter (can move fitted ships, has dedicated ore bay for you carebears out there) it costs almost half of what a Tech 1 Freighter does..

So I will repeat myself.

What more could you want?


At least 200k worth of cargo space, at around 3-500mil at most (hopefully) and slightly higher speed/agility than orca/freighter - that's what.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-07-05 13:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
There really isn't a "niche" between tech 1 haulers and the Orca, or between Orca and freighter.

And anyway, once you can fly an Orca, every other indy except Freighter, BR, and Noctis are irrelevant. The Orca has more cargo than anything short of a freighter, 50% more EHP than a freighter when fitted for tank, or, when fitted with an MWD, more tank than a freighter and will solo align in 10 seconds flat (faster than any other indy except a BR).

If you're going into low/null, then obv you need either the cloaky or a jump freighter. If you have something > 50k m3 to move, take the freighter. For everything else, there's Orca.

A smaller freighter would just be . . . a smaller freighter. It's not going to be worth whatever time it takes to train it, compared to just getting a freighter, unless it's on the way to a freighter. And even then, once you get the freighter its still useless.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-07-05 14:29:12 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
There really isn't a "niche" between tech 1 haulers and the Orca, or between Orca and freighter.

And anyway, once you can fly an Orca, every other indy except Freighter, BR, and Noctis are irrelevant. The Orca has more cargo than anything short of a freighter, 50% more EHP than a freighter when fitted for tank, or, when fitted with an MWD, more tank than a freighter and will solo align in 10 seconds flat (faster than any other indy except a BR).

If you're going into low/null, then obv you need either the cloaky or a jump freighter. If you have something > 50k m3 to move, take the freighter. For everything else, there's Orca.

A smaller freighter would just be . . . a smaller freighter. It's not going to be worth whatever time it takes to train it, compared to just getting a freighter, unless it's on the way to a freighter. And even then, once you get the freighter its still useless.


You are forgetting several things.
Cost - Some of us don't to save and spend up to 1.3bil just to move 3-400k worth of cargo every now and then, or 17-20days of extra training + about 700mil just to move a small amount more than what a standard industrial can carry. (which, when you factor in the time it takes to train and pilot an Orca from A to B, means it's far more practical just to make 2 or 3 runs in a standard industrial)
Speed - Freighters are slow. Extremely slow. Again, to move 2-300k worth of cargo doesn't require a massive, hulking behemoth.
Training time - Doesn't need any explanation.
There is plenty of room and reason for adding another step between industrial and freighter.
I'm not sure why people are even trying to argue against this anyway, other than for the sake of arguing.
It wouldn't be hurting the game or it's playerbase in any way to add something so simple.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-07-05 14:34:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
I'm not sure why people are even trying to argue against this anyway, other than for the sake of arguing.

You're forgetting that adding useless things for the sake of adding useless things takes away resources better spent on either fixing broken useful things or adding more useful things.

"I want something that does what an Orca does but doesn't require all that annoying training time. kthxbai."

Computer says no.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Kirtar Makanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-07-05 14:36:06 UTC
Sounds like something to do to make DSTs less worthless given the current T1 industrial proposals.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-07-05 14:38:33 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
I'm not sure why people are even trying to argue against this anyway, other than for the sake of arguing.

You're forgetting that adding useless things for the sake of adding useless things takes away resources better spent on either fixing broken useful things or adding more useful things.

"I want something that does what an Orca does but doesn't require all that annoying training time. kthxbai."

Computer says no.



It's not useless, good reasons have already been made apparent in the thread.

An orca does not ferry 3-400k worth of cargo.
Adunh Slavy
#15 - 2013-07-05 15:54:45 UTC
Could retask DSTs for this role, since they are now, with the comming T1 indy change, far less useful in their role than they had been.

+2 warp core is nice, but it's not terribly useful when a BR is a much more effective low/null transport.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-05 15:58:37 UTC
If they decide to give Freighters fitting slots, they will be your mid range Freighter.
To be balanced a Charon with 4 low slots would only get 180km^3 of cargo space.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#17 - 2013-07-05 17:17:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Balthazar Lestrane
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Orcas take 17 days to skill into now that Odyssey brought the new skill changes and they cost a fraction of what a T1 Freighter does.. what more do you want?

According to EVE-Central the average price of an Orca is 716.90 million ISK. Let's look at Providences now.. average price is 1.3 billion ISK. Not only are Orcas A LOT more versatile than your standard freighter (can move fitted ships, has dedicated ore bay for you carebears out there) it costs almost half of what a Tech 1 Freighter does..

So I will repeat myself.

What more could you want?


At least 200k worth of cargo space, at around 3-500mil at most (hopefully) and slightly higher speed/agility than orca/freighter - that's what.


People in hell want ice water, tough noogies.

Quote:
You are forgetting several things.
Cost - Some of us don't to save and spend up to 1.3bil just to move 3-400k worth of cargo every now and then, or 17-20days of extra training + about 700mil just to move a small amount more than what a standard industrial can carry. (which, when you factor in the time it takes to train and pilot an Orca from A to B, means it's far more practical just to make 2 or 3 runs in a standard industrial)
Speed - Freighters are slow. Extremely slow. Again, to move 2-300k worth of cargo doesn't require a massive, hulking behemoth.
Training time - Doesn't need any explanation.
There is plenty of room and reason for adding another step between industrial and freighter.
I'm not sure why people are even trying to argue against this anyway, other than for the sake of arguing.
It wouldn't be hurting the game or it's playerbase in any way to add something so simple.


1. Cost = Buy an Orca, its cheaper
2. Orcas have low slots for fitting nanos/inertia stabs as well as rigging slots.
3. Training time - As I stated previously, Orcas take 17d to skill into. BEFORE implants or neural remaps. That's very short for a capital ship, even moreso for one as versatile as an Orca can be. If you can't be arsed to train something that allows you to be more efficient and profitable, why are you playing this game?

People are arguing against this because the idea introduces too many redundancies and CCP's time is better spent fixing the hulls that are currently broken rather than coming up with new ones that offer nothing new the table.

I don't have any issues with DST being re-tasked to fill this role but what of the role they currently fill? They may not excel at it but it is important to have the option for those who cannot afford Jump Freighters/Carriers and need to haul in dangerous space.
Shaade Silentpaw
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-07-05 17:39:13 UTC
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Shaade Silentpaw wrote:
Balthazar Lestrane wrote:
Orcas take 17 days to skill into now that Odyssey brought the new skill changes and they cost a fraction of what a T1 Freighter does.. what more do you want?

According to EVE-Central the average price of an Orca is 716.90 million ISK. Let's look at Providences now.. average price is 1.3 billion ISK. Not only are Orcas A LOT more versatile than your standard freighter (can move fitted ships, has dedicated ore bay for you carebears out there) it costs almost half of what a Tech 1 Freighter does..

So I will repeat myself.

What more could you want?


At least 200k worth of cargo space, at around 3-500mil at most (hopefully) and slightly higher speed/agility than orca/freighter - that's what.


People in hell want ice water, tough noogies.

Quote:
You are forgetting several things.
Cost - Some of us don't to save and spend up to 1.3bil just to move 3-400k worth of cargo every now and then, or 17-20days of extra training + about 700mil just to move a small amount more than what a standard industrial can carry. (which, when you factor in the time it takes to train and pilot an Orca from A to B, means it's far more practical just to make 2 or 3 runs in a standard industrial)
Speed - Freighters are slow. Extremely slow. Again, to move 2-300k worth of cargo doesn't require a massive, hulking behemoth.
Training time - Doesn't need any explanation.
There is plenty of room and reason for adding another step between industrial and freighter.
I'm not sure why people are even trying to argue against this anyway, other than for the sake of arguing.
It wouldn't be hurting the game or it's playerbase in any way to add something so simple.


1. Cost = Buy an Orca, its cheaper
2. Orcas have low slots for fitting nanos/inertia stabs as well as rigging slots.
3. Training time - As I stated previously, Orcas take 17d to skill into. BEFORE implants or neural remaps. That's very short for a capital ship, even moreso for one as versatile as an Orca can be.

People are arguing against this because the idea introduces too many redundancies and CCP's time is better spent fixing the hulls that are currently broken rather than coming up with new ones that offer nothing new the table.

I don't have any issues with DST being re-tasked to fill this role but what of the role they currently fill? They may not excel at it but it is important to have the option for those who cannot afford Jump Freighters/Carriers and need to haul in dangerous space.


Thankfully this isn't hell.

Again, (what is it, 3rd time now?) an Orca cannot carry 3-400k of cargo, is still too expensive, and 17 days worth of training combined with the speed of an Orca makes the small cargo boost over industrials completely pointless unless you need to carry a packaged battleship. (That's ONE battleship, unless you want to spend alot more ISK on T2 rigs and alot more time training Industrial Command Ships)
The simple fact remains, there is plently of room and reason for this suggestion.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#19 - 2013-07-05 19:54:13 UTC
There is clearly room, and several people over the last few years have posted in testimony to the demand, of something to bridge the gap between industrial and freighter.

I'm not sure what is hard to understand.


Such ships might be flying targets due to the tank/value ratio inherent in such a ship, but if I want to risk my stable of battleships in one fairly easily ganked transporter as I move from mission station to mission station, then I should be able to do so.

The view that the Orca covers some of this already is true.... but the Orca is a specialist ship aimed at mining. I want a similarly sized specialist ship aimed at fleet logistics (classic logistics, not remote repair). The Orca is better than an industrial, and a godsend to a small pack of miners, but is very marginal for it's cost in other uses.

The Devs have given over whole years to pew-pew. They will continue to improve that side of things... but some of us want to see a little more love than the rebalance of the industrial class of ships that took them all of a weekend to hammer out on the PvE side of things.
Balthazar Lestrane
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#20 - 2013-07-05 20:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Balthazar Lestrane
It's not that the idea itself is a bad one, it's that in terms of priority this just isn't important when there are numerous hulls (Mostly T2/Pirate Faction at this point) that are ******* broken. There are modules in the same situation as well. I say nay to this because I would rather see the current hulls fixed and being used over new hulls being introduced when there are already ships that cover the purpose of moving cargo. CCP has made great lengths to refocus and prioritize gameplay and Freighters don't really do much besides docking, warping to gates or jumping to cynos. Not very pertinent if you ask me.

The other problem with this is the redundancy. There needs to be something more unique to this mini-freighter concept other than just hauling. The fact remains that there ARE ships out there that can haul cargo and are not freighters. Maybe they are not tailor-made for what you want, but they do exist. As well, Freighters, no matter what size do not get any fitting/rigging slots. Their purpose is solely to move cargo. They hull tank like men or they die in fires.

And if you really want to bridge the gap between Freighter and Industrial, it should cost just as much as an Orca, because it's hauling half as much as a freighter and should reflect that in the cost. Having a cargo ship that costs 300-400mil but can haul half as much as a freighter is unbalanced.
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