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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Legacy ASB Ships

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Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2013-07-03 16:26:42 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:

Destoya wrote:
Just by the way, I did some math with a Sleipnir
Your math must be wrong. Sleipnir gets around +25% ehp (with more or less classic for AT fitting). If you take into consideration RRs coming from logi, the survivability time improvement is reduced from these +25% to ~10% max (because ASB gives you plain hp buffer, not resists), yet in your calculations under reps sleipnir survived 25% longer.


It's really quite simple. A Sleipnir with 4 large, un-overheated reps from a scimi gets 2072 DPS tank without it's ASB, which means that the 4000 DPS number I used is reduced to 1928 DPS

ASB reps 1482.25 per cycle for 13 cycles, which is 19269.25 HP, which is then multiplied by the resists of the ship (sleipnirs have very balanced omni resists so that's a good baseline) which is a multiplier of 6.449. This means the ASB adds 124,267 EHP to the ship. Add this to the base HP of 61,866 and you get 186,133 EHP to chew through with the 1928 DPS. That's 96.54 seconds under ideal circumstances.

9 Charge ASB results in EHP of 147,897, which takes 76.71 seconds under the same circumstances

Of course this math relies of the idea that a hostile team is able to apply exactly 4000 DPS to a single ship and ignores factors such as ASB charges from capacitor (which you can usually get 1-2 off easily), "wasted" rep cycles and ASB cycles which take the ship to full shield, but I still feel it's a decent comparison.
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#42 - 2013-07-03 17:09:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
Faffywaffy wrote:
No. I want a tournament where the number of points assigned to a ship is proportional to how powerful that ship is.
Then why did you think of 13-charged ASBs on ships and AT reward ships, but not 5-point hyenas, 4-point vigils, HICs, sacrileges, cruors, interceptors, erises?

To me it seems you care about balance of things which you can't afford (or which do not fit your meta well).

Destoya wrote:
post
True, sorry for making you to write long post. I don't know how i could think ehp increases your longevity non-linearly.

I think reps from scimi confused me, but actually they do not matter at all in your example, EHP boost is EHP boost.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#43 - 2013-07-03 17:26:53 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Faffywaffy wrote:
No. I want a tournament where the number of points assigned to a ship is proportional to how powerful that ship is.
Then why did you think of 13-charged ASBs on ships and AT reward ships, but not 5-point hyenas, 4-point vigils, HICs, sacrileges, cruors, interceptors, erises?

To me it seems you care about balance of things which you can't afford.


I think all of these also need to be re-pointed, even though the case for them is different. You can look up the thread where I voiced my opinion on which ship types were assigned an inappropriate number of points. None of them were tournament prize ships.

Do you not think that points should be proportional to strength?
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#44 - 2013-07-03 17:31:52 UTC
Faffywaffy wrote:
Do you not think that points should be proportional to strength?
I think as long as tourney is held on TQ, ISK cost is a factor. Why would you want to use ships which cost tens of billions of ISK, if their point value is scaled proportionally with their performance in tourney meta?

However, I do agree with you for test server tourneys like SCL. And i already suggested per-shiptype balancing approach there, but apparently it takes too much effort to do this.
Tabernash
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#45 - 2013-07-03 17:45:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tabernash
CCP Veritas wrote:

2 - They are not available to be practiced against.


This. This is not a fancy ship, it is a ship that is technically impossible to recreate. It only exists due to the inability to force it comply with new mechanics, it is not 'special' so much as it is 100% unintentional. I don't like the word legacy attached to it, legacy would imply it is outdated or discontinued and it isn't either of those things, it is a broke mechanic.
Plejaden
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#46 - 2013-07-03 20:23:38 UTC
Easiest way to make sure ASBs aren't overloaded: unload them.

Can't you just use your GM tool to enforce that once all ships are on Jove space? It doesn't bother me too much fighting ships with the old amount of charges in their ASBs, but if the only reason you are allowing them are "technical difficulties" this is a 100% secure way all ASBs have the same amount of charges loaded.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#47 - 2013-07-03 21:31:04 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Faffywaffy wrote:
Do you not think that points should be proportional to strength?
I think as long as tourney is held on TQ, ISK cost is a factor. Why would you want to use ships which cost tens of billions of ISK, if their point value is scaled proportionally with their performance in tourney meta?

However, I do agree with you for test server tourneys like SCL. And i already suggested per-shiptype balancing approach there, but apparently it takes too much effort to do this.


Because they have unique capabilities that can be used in unusual and surprising ways. Making them balanced point-wise would not make them useless. If that were the case in general then all properly-balanced ships would be interchangeable.
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#48 - 2013-07-03 23:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: sevyn nine
sevyn nine wrote:
It would be ridiculous if they are allowed (it definitely goes against the spirit of a fair fight), but it would also be tough to check for this.


Quoting myself because after 3 pages of posts, we still end up here. The significant advantage they bestow, plus the inability to detect the 13 vs 8 charges, simply makes their inclusion unfair. The overloaded ASBs are a weird carry-over from a rebalancing attempt, not something that belongs in an alliance tournament. Especially this year's tournament, where CCP has made great strides in leveling the playing field.
Admiral Goberius
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2013-07-04 02:29:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Admiral Goberius
so anyways do you realize that the difference between 13 and 8 is a pretty big difference

here is what 8 smileys look like

Big smileSmileSadShockedWhat?CoolLolX

now I will try with 13 smileys

Big smileSmileSadShockedWhat?CoolLolXPOopsCryEvilTwisted

you can see how all the extra smileys are red angry this is because the 13 charge legacy asb are the work of satan worshippers

coincidence? or perhaps CCP fozzie is a illuminati puppet. wake up america.



edit:
actually 4 of the smileys are red and the one in the middle just looks in your soul and weeps - a desperate warning but it knows its too late to stop - mother of mercy
HaartSp
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED
#50 - 2013-07-04 05:42:53 UTC
Admiral Goberius wrote:
so anyways do you realize that the difference between 13 and 8 is a pretty big difference

here is what 8 smileys look like

Big smileSmileSadShockedWhat?CoolLolX

now I will try with 13 smileys

Big smileSmileSadShockedWhat?CoolLolXPOopsCryEvilTwisted

you can see how all the extra smileys are red angry this is because the 13 charge legacy asb are the work of satan worshippers

coincidence? or perhaps CCP fozzie is a illuminati puppet. wake up america.



edit:
actually 4 of the smileys are red and the one in the middle just looks in your soul and weeps - a desperate warning but it knows its too late to stop - mother of mercy

Do you realize that current ASB holds 9 charges, not 8, right?
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#51 - 2013-07-04 07:12:50 UTC
HaartSp wrote:
Do you realize that current ASB holds 9 charges, not 8, right?
Why would you care about charges when you can cycle it as long as you want?

Faffywaffy wrote:
Because they have unique capabilities that can be used in unusual and surprising ways. Making them balanced point-wise would not make them useless. If that were the case in general then all properly-balanced ships would be interchangeable.
With the point cost of several ship classes increased, you already have to gimp something (usually your support). Which unique capabilities in tourney meta does etana have (it can't use its cloak there)? It will get caught anyway and your 70-100 bils die in a fire, tanking for just few seconds more - and you had to spend these 100 bils and 3-5 additional points on it. Or why would you want to use e.g. 6-point cambion over 2 sabres? Or mimir (which is pretty much useless even with current point cost)?
Admiral Goberius
Horde Vanguard.
Pandemic Horde
#52 - 2013-07-04 10:42:47 UTC
HaartSp wrote:
Admiral Goberius wrote:
so anyways do you realize that the difference between 13 and 8 is a pretty big difference

here is what 8 smileys look like

Big smileSmileSadShockedWhat?CoolLolX

now I will try with 13 smileys

Big smileSmileSadShockedWhat?CoolLolXPOopsCryEvilTwisted

you can see how all the extra smileys are red angry this is because the 13 charge legacy asb are the work of satan worshippers

coincidence? or perhaps CCP fozzie is a illuminati puppet. wake up america.



edit:
actually 4 of the smileys are red and the one in the middle just looks in your soul and weeps - a desperate warning but it knows its too late to stop - mother of mercy

Do you realize that current ASB holds 9 charges, not 8, right?


you know you can fly other ships than sleipnirs in tourneys right?
Ais Hellia
Jita Honor Industries Union
#53 - 2013-07-04 11:28:20 UTC
Admiral Goberius wrote:


you know you can fly other ships than sleipnirs in tourneys right?


http://techdistrict.kirkk.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/stacked-turtles.jpg
Callic Veratar
#54 - 2013-07-04 16:53:20 UTC
(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)

I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?

This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest.
Logical Chaos
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#55 - 2013-07-04 17:42:23 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)

I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?

This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest.


Confirmed!
HaartSp
The Deliberate Forces
HYDRA RELOADED
#56 - 2013-07-04 17:49:32 UTC
Admiral Goberius wrote:
you know you can fly other ships than sleipnirs in tourneys right?

Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at gilas as well.
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#57 - 2013-07-04 18:13:40 UTC
Who said an Etana should cost 3-5 points more than a logi, or that a cambion should cost 6? I think the appropriate number of points for both of them is 1 more than their current class.
Callic Veratar
#58 - 2013-07-04 19:46:26 UTC
Logical Chaos wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)

I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?

This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest.


Confirmed!


Thanks for confirming it.

While it may be unfair, the advantage is so limited, that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to police it. With the tournament ships, you can use them again and again. With these ships, if you use the booster it literally can never be used again. If you lose a tournament round without having the ASB on a enemy Sleip activated once, I'd say it's pretty safe to conclude you wouldn't have won no matter how many charges it has.

If it really is a big concern, and there are potential future changes that could cause similar issue, an "easy" fix would be to enforce ammo checking on ships when it checks CPU and PG checks on undock. (Like how you can't undock a rookie frigate with a siege blaster in a high slot).
Tabernash
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#59 - 2013-07-04 20:58:53 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Logical Chaos wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
(Assumption: if you use 5 boosts on a 13 charge ASB and reload it, it will go up to 9, is this wrong?)

I'm confused here. There's a suggestion that people will exclusively fly 13 charge ASB ships in the tournament, knowing full well that they're highly limited and can only be used once?

This is not like the tournament ships. It doesn't get unlimited 13 charge cycles, it gets 4 extra boosts. Period. They're the first four boosts the ship will ever use and it's immediately reduced to a normal ASB. As well, these cycles will happen at the beginning of the match when both teams are at their strongest.


Confirmed!


Thanks for confirming it.

While it may be unfair, the advantage is so limited, that I'm not sure it's worth the effort to police it. With the tournament ships, you can use them again and again. With these ships, if you use the booster it literally can never be used again. If you lose a tournament round without having the ASB on a enemy Sleip activated once, I'd say it's pretty safe to conclude you wouldn't have won no matter how many charges it has.

If it really is a big concern, and there are potential future changes that could cause similar issue, an "easy" fix would be to enforce ammo checking on ships when it checks CPU and PG checks on undock. (Like how you can't undock a rookie frigate with a siege blaster in a high slot).


Unconfirmed, don't be stupid.
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#60 - 2013-07-04 21:13:58 UTC
Tabernash wrote:
Unconfirmed, don't be stupid.
It would be possible to load 13 charges again only if that ASB had pre-nerf capacity (which it doesn't have, just amount of charges loaded is legacy).