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CCP- what r you guys thinking towards marauders? not finished stats, just general role change

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#261 - 2013-07-03 20:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Contrary to what some would have you believe, people have screamed for better and more PVP like PVE activites for years.

Personally I like the idea that some PVE still be simple, with masses of low powered ships all acting the same way. This satisfies the needs of the casual player.

While a more advanced level of PVE, that behaves and requires fits similar to PVP fits, be incorporated for those that crave a more satisfying (and attention requiring) experience. Obviously these would need a payoff that reflects their higher degree of difficulty. And no, I'm not just talking about making a group experience mandatory (like Incursions)... I'm talking about missions that are involving and unpredictable, that require a degree of skill and thought for a solo player or small group to triumph over.

To this end I'd like to see the creation of a new NPC power group, mercenaries drawn from all the various cultures of EVE (Empires and Pirate factions) would comprise the make up. The point of this would be that you could face a vast array of ships and damage types. This group could turn up anywhere, in any area of space, at any time. You would never know for sure exactly what you would be facing.


The only problem is that as soon as missions like that are created there would be a huge outcry from those that prefer the simple mission structure we have now, complaining that their payouts have been nerfed (in comparison)... or that's it's unfair that they can't do those other missions with half an eye on the TV.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#262 - 2013-07-03 21:21:13 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Contrary to what some would have you believe, people have screamed for better and more PVP like PVE activites for years.

Personally I like the idea that some PVE still be simple, with masses of low powered ships all acting the same way. This satisfies the needs of the casual player.

While a more advanced level of PVE, that behaves and requires fits similar to PVP fits, be incorporated for those that crave a more satisfying (and attention requiring) experience. Obviously these would need a payoff that reflects their higher degree of difficulty. And no, I'm not just talking about making a group experience mandatory (like Incursions)... I'm talking about missions that are involving and unpredictable, that require a degree of skill and thought for a solo player or small group to triumph over.

The creation of a new NPC power group, mercenaries drawn from all the various cultures of EVE (Empires and Pirate factions) would comprise the make up. The point of this would be that you could face a vast array of ships and damage types. This group could turn up anywhere, in any area of space, at any time. You would never know for sure exactly what you would be facing.


The only problem is that as soon as missions like that are created there would be a huge outcry from those that prefer the simple mission structure we have now, complaining that their payouts have been nerfed (in comparison)... or that's it's unfair that they can't do those other missions with half an eye on the TV.


i'd rather not go this far offtopic but ....

i like you ideas.
but more pve like pvp does not have to be pressed into form of classic mission running.
you could have the "mission" to kill/hunt a certain npc in some site that is only accessible to you but when you start fireing upon him hell warp of to a belt and agan to some other celestial and maybe even jump a system or to has ewar and is stron etc... so youll have a pvp like experience but safe i highsec or even more dangerous in low or null.
and im pretty sure there is more that could be done in this fashion not just incursion like missions...
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2013-07-03 21:24:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I have screamed for better and more PVP like PVE activites for years.

Fixed that for you.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#264 - 2013-07-03 21:27:51 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I have screamed for better and more PVP like PVE activites for years.

Fixed that for you.

I get that some people don't want more challenging missions, but he is hardly alone in wanting the option for PvP standards being better represented in PvE.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#265 - 2013-07-03 21:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Gabriel Karade wrote:
Make them more M-A-R-A-U-D-E-R ish?

Give them a generalised role bonus towards hacking structures (/Techno-babble ".... need for a Battleship hull and power-grid systems to support the immense mainframes required for concerted projected electronic attacks....."/Techno-babble) possibly even other ships - kind of like a reverse/negative effect warfare link.


I can't imagine a single hacking site where I would want to use a battleship for. Oops

Gabriel Karade wrote:
Fix the oddities aswell:

like the absurdly low sensor strength, the Vargur powergrid, the defunct tractor bonus, oh did I mentioned the Vargur powergrid?.... X


The low sensor strength and lock speed are on the hulls to prevent them from being to good in solo pvp, the pg was chosen to not fit auto cannons and 3 heavy neuts(what you could if the ship was designed around fitting a full rack of 1400mm artis). In general requesting a fitting bonus to large weapons similar as on tier 3 BCs would solve the problem.

To all the people that think pve content designed like pvp content would be a brilliant idea and doable, would you please pick up a pencil and a big paper block and take 20h to write down a epic if/else string that is not easy to predict, is fair and engaging for a lot of ships and SP levels and can not be easily used to make it the same farming content as anything else, once people did analyse the mechanics? If you are done with it and you think you did it, sit down a another 20h and look for options where it can be fairly easy rigged in a specific way with faction mods, ship bonuses and ship combinations. At this point you might be able to understand why this is not done in any kind of MMO and will never be done. Because it is impossible and EvEs SP, ship and fitting system makes it even harder to balance then in other MMOs, where you could scale down level and gear to create a somewhat similar starting point, what you can use to balance it out.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#266 - 2013-07-03 21:45:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I have screamed for better and more PVP like PVE activites for years.

Fixed that for you.

Nice try. Smile

How far back would you like to go to find threads devoted to exactly this? Would a decade do, or would you prefer we try to dig up some from beta? Big smileBig smileBig smile

You might note that I do not advocate doing away with the current mission structure, but don't let that stop you from looking silly. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#267 - 2013-07-03 21:50:40 UTC
The Djego wrote:
To all the people that think pve content designed like pvp content would be a brilliant idea and doable, would you please pick up a pencil and a big paper block and take 20h to write down a epic if/else string that is not easy to predict, is fair and engaging for a lot of ships and SP levels and can not be easily used to make it the same farming content as anything else, once people did analyse the mechanics? If you are done with it and you think you did it, sit down a another 20h and look for options where it can be fairly easy rigged in a specific way with faction mods, ship bonuses and ship combinations. At this point you might be able to understand why this is not done in any kind of MMO and will never be done. Because it is impossible and EvEs SP, ship and fitting system makes it even harder to balance then in other MMOs, where you could scale down level and gear to create a somewhat similar starting point, what you can use to balance it out.

To all the people who are NOT software engineers capable of thinking outside the box, do not assume an answer is missing simply because you believe it beyond your personal grasp.

You don't need to create a sentient AI to make a challenge worth the effort for a person.

All you need to do, is analyze what makes PvP require the tactics that currently exist, and come in from a different direction.
It hardly needs to be perfect, with the bar so low that a PvE fit ship currently wants, is worthless outside of PvE.

It can be better, with hardly the overwhelming effort you suggest.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#268 - 2013-07-03 22:05:40 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
The Djego wrote:
To all the people that think pve content designed like pvp content would be a brilliant idea and doable, would you please pick up a pencil and a big paper block and take 20h to write down a epic if/else string that is not easy to predict, is fair and engaging for a lot of ships and SP levels and can not be easily used to make it the same farming content as anything else, once people did analyse the mechanics? If you are done with it and you think you did it, sit down a another 20h and look for options where it can be fairly easy rigged in a specific way with faction mods, ship bonuses and ship combinations. At this point you might be able to understand why this is not done in any kind of MMO and will never be done. Because it is impossible and EvEs SP, ship and fitting system makes it even harder to balance then in other MMOs, where you could scale down level and gear to create a somewhat similar starting point, what you can use to balance it out.

To all the people who are NOT software engineers capable of thinking outside the box, do not assume an answer is missing simply because you believe it beyond your personal grasp.

You don't need to create a sentient AI to make a challenge worth the effort for a person.

All you need to do, is analyze what makes PvP require the tactics that currently exist, and come in from a different direction.
It hardly needs to be perfect, with the bar so low that a PvE fit ship currently wants, is worthless outside of PvE.

It can be better, with hardly the overwhelming effort you suggest.


Please show me that you can do what all other people in the industry can't do. If you succeeded I bet a lot of people want to hire you, since you are clearly better than a lot of very good paid and experienced software engineers...

I expect you can do a lot better than the guys that designed Incs and WH content with the same goals in mind...

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#269 - 2013-07-03 22:18:40 UTC
The Djego wrote:
Please show me that you can do what all other people in the industry can't do. If you succeeded I bet a lot of people want to hire you, since you are clearly better than a lot of very good paid and experienced software engineers...

I expect you can do a lot better than the guys that designed Incs and WH content with the same goals in mind...

I truly wish I had such an opportunity.

The creation of such a system would be as much fun in the design and execution as it would be to play with after.

If you know code, then you may also know those who truly enjoy working with it. If you work with it in games, then I envy you.
I am stuck doing things of a much less fascinating aspect, though still related in nature.

Back to Marauders, please?

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#270 - 2013-07-03 22:53:56 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Nikk Narrel wrote:

I truly wish I had such an opportunity.

The creation of such a system would be as much fun in the design and execution as it would be to play with after.

If you know code, then you may also know those who truly enjoy working with it. If you work with it in games, then I envy you.
I am stuck doing things of a much less fascinating aspect, though still related in nature.


I'm pretty sure it is not a lot of fun to design something like this for EvE since you work with a sheer endless amount of unknown variables you would have to take into account and address properly. I was actually 100% serious, spend 20h on it, that is not even a lot of time, you will realize that once you are done with it. If you upload it I am more than willing to spend a few hours on it to pick it apart and search for stuff that can be easily manipulated to make it super easy to farm. This includes zero coding, just thinking about possible starting conditions(SP, ship types, fittings, combinations of multiple ships) and solutions to make it interesting with that and writhing it down in a way that it can be used to implement it. Also this is just for one single site/mission, now imagine the amount of man hours it would take if you want to redo the hole pve content in eve(and now add time for implementation and play testing all the implemented possibility's).

The problem is, that the pve content should be not only engaging but also doable by casual players. While it might be interesting and engaging at first, people pick it apart and analyse it, that people later tell others how they done it, some even write down guides and in the end you spend a lot of effort to make it interesting under a lot of different conditions, using different tactics and ship combinations while most people will do it strictly by the book(or exploit one or two things you forget to think about while designing it), because they know that they will be able to do it this way.

It is a awesome idea, it would be a nightmare to do it properly and even then, players will come up with solutions to do it very easy and predictable(because it should be doable by design), and then you are back at square one, with a massive amount of man hours and money spend on it.

Edit: The reason some problems are not solved by now is that people realized they sit in front of exactly the same problem they tried to fix, after they did fix it(technically fixing it or not makes no difference). This is actually a very common phenomenon in software engineering. Oops

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Endeavour Starfleet
#271 - 2013-07-03 23:05:17 UTC
Just want to again throw it out there. Make the Golem a PVE Aggro attracting ship. That would allow it to be used in more group PVE content.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#272 - 2013-07-03 23:06:55 UTC
If they took the Sleeper AI and made it even more aggressive and hateful, wouldn't that do the job?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#273 - 2013-07-04 00:07:17 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
To all the people who are NOT software engineers capable of thinking outside the box, do not assume an answer is missing simply because you believe it beyond your personal grasp.
i just so happen to be a software developer and i consider myself able to think outside the box. yet i am thoroughly convinced that what you have proposed is not possible for the reasons i stated and will restate below.

Quote:
You don't need to create a sentient AI to make a challenge worth the effort for a person.
this statement is technically correct, but it misses the current problem.
Quote:
All you need to do, is analyze what makes PvP require the tactics that currently exist, and come in from a different direction.
It hardly needs to be perfect, with the bar so low that a PvE fit ship currently wants, is worthless outside of PvE.
and once you are done analyzing and have implemented your AI, players analyze the AI and develop streamlined counter-stratigies to render it mostly useless. see, what makes pvp so different is that both parties are constantly analyzing each other's moves and trying to adapt to the situation. without this essential interaction, making the AI more complicated or more random will only make it more annoying to play against. case in point: drone aggro, sansha tracking disruption, ECM heavy missions etc. etc.
Quote:
It can be better, with hardly the overwhelming effort you suggest.

it can be marginally better for a limited amount of time (until players figure it out and adapt). after that, it's likely to become worse if anything.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#274 - 2013-07-04 00:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
Ranger 1 wrote:
The only problem is that as soon as missions like that are created there would be a huge outcry from those that prefer the simple mission structure we have now, complaining that their payouts have been nerfed (in comparison)... or that's it's unfair that they can't do those other missions with half an eye on the TV.

no, the problem would be that mission runners would quickly figure out which ship/fit is best suited for this 'new' type of mission and then grind them just like they are doing now, with the added annoyance of having to deal with all the random shenanigans.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#275 - 2013-07-04 01:39:58 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
All you need to do, is analyze what makes PvP require the tactics that currently exist, and come in from a different direction.
It hardly needs to be perfect, with the bar so low that a PvE fit ship currently wants, is worthless outside of PvE.
and once you are done analyzing and have implemented your AI, players analyze the AI and develop streamlined counter-stratigies to render it mostly useless. see, what makes pvp so different is that both parties are constantly analyzing each other's moves and trying to adapt to the situation. without this essential interaction, making the AI more complicated or more random will only make it more annoying to play against. case in point: drone aggro, sansha tracking disruption, ECM heavy missions etc. etc.

You are approaching this from a two dimensional perspective by limiting yourself to a single type of solution.

Random combinations and sub elements mixed together, and the resulting experience will be too improbable to predict in a manner leading to the dull sensation we have now.

You can keep the same AI over structure, so long as it's elements are unknown before the encounter. Just tweak the encounter speed to emphasize the value of a buffer tank and high alphas.
Stick in the means to recharge cap / shields and armor between encounter aspects, or work in a method to bank like cap boosters or NPC logistics aiding between fights. Under the right circumstances you might need to guard the NPC logi in order to survive.

Be creative, and don't rely on the AI being limited to the same resources as the player.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Ju0ZaS
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2013-07-04 02:40:40 UTC
Remove the 100% damage bonus and give it a bonus to use a siege mod, give them proper BS sensor strength for God's sake. They could probably produce 3500 dps with a sick tank, tracking penalty and 0ms while active like on dreads. People could start getting rid of large towers with out needing 50 people to shoot it for an hour with out dreads. Would open up new opportunities for mercs in high sec. Right now you can simply put a lot of gay stuff like jams, lots of guns so people won't bother with them most of the time. But if you could actually threaten them maybe the owners would actually have to defend their stuff and come to fight.

Are you going to fight me or do you expect to bore me to death with your forum pvp?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#277 - 2013-07-04 09:37:56 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If they took the Sleeper AI and made it even more aggressive and hateful, wouldn't that do the job?


They don't need to make the rats so very smart to make them more "PvP like".

Just have Fatal suddenly say to himself "God dambit, this month's losses are just unacceptable. You know I really think we need to fit a god damb kinetic hardener. And maybe bring some EM missiles."

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#278 - 2013-07-04 11:35:07 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I have screamed for better and more PVP like PVE activites for years.

Fixed that for you.


Nope, I want more Intuitive Missions Also. the Fact I can hop in a Drake with an auto Targeter and Just randomly Press "F1" or just FOF a Mission is amazingly dull and amazed it can Exist. Same As Dropping Drones and waiting for the site to Complete. The game Should be Played and not be more catered to AFK players. I have no problem with Keeping the "Casual" Style But the Semi-AFK no risk Style needs to be Averted. There are other Games for That Style. But it must be done in a way that the Sandbox is not Completely Effed.

BUT this game needs to get back to Discussion of the Marauders, and NOT the gameplay System. But I will say I can fly a Marauder, but have no use For a ship Dedicated to PVE, Thats not truley Sandbox. We should be able to take any ship into any situation and depending on Fit, Do fairly Well at it. The Factor that Marauders get Jammed out So easily needs to be changed. I do like some of the ideas in the thread about adding it a Jump Drive.. that would make it to how it is Described.. Getting behind enemy lines. Kind of like the PVP/DPS Brother of the Bops. But I also would like it to maintain It's Ability For Mission running. But it's Cost Vs Effectiveness is still Outdone By a Pirate BS where it comes to Level 4 and 5's Or Incursions. I can fit and get a Pirate BS hull cheaper and a Noctis (which really killed the need for the marauder, you can sweep the room quicker with the noctis and a pirate BS now. )
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#279 - 2013-07-04 11:43:43 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Ju0ZaS wrote:
Remove the 100% damage bonus and give it a bonus to use a siege mod, give them proper BS sensor strength for God's sake. They could probably produce 3500 dps with a sick tank, tracking penalty and 0ms while active like on dreads. People could start getting rid of large towers with out needing 50 people to shoot it for an hour with out dreads. Would open up new opportunities for mercs in high sec. Right now you can simply put a lot of gay stuff like jams, lots of guns so people won't bother with them most of the time. But if you could actually threaten them maybe the owners would actually have to defend their stuff and come to fight.


And after the change people would simply defend posses or scoop them before the war dec. Leaving marauders in a state where they are completely useless not just for you but also for the people that currently use marauders.

Malcanis wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
If they took the Sleeper AI and made it even more aggressive and hateful, wouldn't that do the job?


They don't need to make the rats so very smart to make them more "PvP like".

Just have Fatal suddenly say to himself "God dambit, this month's losses are just unacceptable. You know I really think we need to fit a god damb kinetic hardener. And maybe bring some EM missiles."


Malc, let me tell you a secret, computers(you know the little box under your desk) are bad at thinking, honestly they just can do math, and are not even good at that(your job as software engineer is basically to tell a little mindless thing every single action it should do, because it can't figure it out on his own). If the NPCs do something, they do it because somebody programmed them to do just that and this is very predictable since again a machine can't think. There might be even the idea that if somebody has to lose in pve, make it the npc. The simple reason for this is that the NPC is a very good loser compared to the player, it re spawns when you want it to re spawn, it never gets bored, it never gets upset about losing, it will never complain on the forums and it is never worried about losing all her stuff when it dies. While many wouldn't go so far, I for myself would even say this is the main reason why most casual people rather prefer pve instead of pvp in MMOs.

I personally would not even notice it, because I use omni tank for nearly any mission(yes I am super lazy and I don't need a massive tank anyway). On the other hand I guess a lot of casual players would find it very confusing if her BS explodes in "The Assault", being scrambled at the warp in, very quickly because they have zero EM resists and can't bring down BS with the kinetic missiles in her cargo. The funny thing is actually that you even remove options form players, that where intended to reward them, if they use the right tank and damage type as a way to do it with the ships, modules and game mechanics we had as the content was added. The simple result would be that you omni tank every hull(like in WH or Incs) and ships that can't switch damage types get double screwed for no good reason. If you look at stuff like "The maze", sure super interesting, to a point where people bring a couple of HICs, a off grid booster and super heavy omni tanked logis.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#280 - 2013-07-04 11:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Janeway84
I did some thinking the past few days and i thought damn it would be nice with a tier 2 Marauder ship.

I heard talks about CCP maybe doing so players can construct stargates in the future in eve.

So i got to think about one of my favourite tv shows! Babylon 5 wich is really old but its got tons of good ideas.

What if CCP could develop a hightech exploration battleship with bonuses to micro jump drive, and charting space?
And maybe even being able to deploy and anchor stargates in suitable locations?

I thought what if players could setup temporary gates that works for 3 hours or depending on how much fuel you put into it?

this is sort of my idea from babylon 5 in ship description at least http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Explorer_class_ship


Im thinking bonus could be like a range bonus for how far away you can jump with the micro jump drive + a spool up decrease time and probing and scanning bonus and beign able to fly with covert ops cloak if flying through hostile space.

Maybe also the ship could have a special fuel bay to carry the fuel required for the gates too. P



I got a 2nd idea about a 2nd tier marauder for all races would be neat if you could have a marauder with long range bonuses for weapons and giving a speed increase to weapons being fired by those ships. Sort of like having a falloff and rate of fire bonus or missile velocity and flight time bonus for missile ships.
and some pvp bonuses like mwd speed increase and warp disruption range bonus or some other ewar bonus.


Yeah also the current ones need buff sensor strenght by 200% and give them a 3rd rig slot. + add more grid and cpu for ships missing it. Also a extra bonus would be cool like ancillary shield bonus and ancillary armor repair bonuses and possibly a micro jump drive bonus. I only used the kronos so i cant really say much about their specific needs of the current one except sensor strenght needs alot of love + it would be neat if they could get some extra bonus ontop of exisiting ones to utilize some of the new mods a little? Kronos is ok but sometimes i wish it had that extra low slot or midslot for more tank mods or a 2nd cap booster or tracking computer cause it hurts alot when being tracking disrupted. And drone bay is way too small for a T2 battleship hull. should give it same size as dominix but without the drone bonuses of the dominix.