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On-grid boosting and preserving small gang PvP
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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#1 - 2013-07-03 21:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Right now, ships using warfare links are huge boons to small gang PvP, as they can provide a much-needed performance boost, enabling solo and small gangs to bridge the gap of being out-classed or out-numbered and be able to provide a fight anyway. As they have indicated, CCP want to remove this feature of boosts and instead bring them on grid. The mechanics of it aren't down in stone yet, so it remains to be seen exactly how much this will harm small gangs. However, whatever happens, it will be a serious detriment.

Command ships are on the table for a re-imagining, so in order to provide an advantage for "specializing" into T2 (as CCP have indicated they want things to work), they need to have superior boosting capabilities compared to T1 battlecruisers and to T3 cruisers. So...

Why not give command ships a warp core strength bonus? It preserves the current mechanic of needing skill and preparation to catch a boosting ship and provides room for a lot more dynamic play with command ships as part of small gangs. I know I, for one, have always wanted more reason and incentive to fly my Claymore, and this would definitely provide that.

Discuss. Big smile

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
KuroVolt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-07-03 21:56:39 UTC
The old mining frigs dont have a T2 version yet, maybe these can specialise in on grid boosting for small gangs?

BoBwins Law: As a discussion/war between two large nullsec entities grows longer, the probability of one comparing the other to BoB aproaches near certainty.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#3 - 2013-07-03 22:03:50 UTC
How would a added warp core strength help command ships ?
They are already getting a increase in effectiveness of their links and have a huge tank.

I would rather see something that really helps the ships with populair fittings, most command ships flown by fc's have a probe launcher.
If the bonus to links is not enough a small added bonus to probe strength could help it a bit more, at least reduced cpu need for the fitting of one.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-07-03 22:40:54 UTC
Command ships pulling over 500K EHP and still managing to apply nice amounts of dps or simply having a nasty tank on top of huge dps is already enough to make them interesting.

If those are underused it's only because of the silliness that is T3's command subs on top of providing Boosts totally safe at the pos or almost impossible to probe

OGB really needs to be removed for a better pvp environment, commit to the fight like every other ship does and players will find new ways to succeed again vs larger groups.
At equal characters skills it's the player behind it that SHOULD make the difference, not a stupid invulnerable alt running links and requiring no attention.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#5 - 2013-07-03 22:46:47 UTC
A PvP ship with stabs? Are you afraid of being caught and actually having to fight? Some PvPer you are...
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#6 - 2013-07-04 01:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Command ships pulling over 500K EHP and still managing to apply nice amounts of dps or simply having a nasty tank on top of huge dps is already enough to make them interesting.

If those are underused it's only because of the silliness that is T3's command subs on top of providing Boosts totally safe at the pos or almost impossible to probe

OGB really needs to be removed for a better pvp environment, commit to the fight like every other ship does and players will find new ways to succeed again vs larger groups.

Simply throwing it to "they'll find new ways" is a bit short-sighted and naive. Without a way to "secure" an on-grid booster ship it just becomes a giant pinata. It doesn't matter what tank it has; if it gets pointed, that's a ship that's as good as gone. And, if fit for damage, a CS is at this point a plain BC with maybe 30% more EHP -- also not something that small gangs would commit to a fight.

This sudden lack of incentive to use booster ships would destroy the character market, upset game balance, and make some big name pro pvpers (such as Cynthia Nezmor) dock up for good. My solution doesn't completely eliminate boosts, and it keeps the current dynamic of "to counter boosts you need to be prepared and on the ball", while also keeping them viable for small gangs.

Ed: How's this: make CS unable to perform boosting, hyper-tanking, and DPSing all at once. I don't really think they need the nerf, especially given their price tag that balances their performance, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#7 - 2013-07-04 01:48:36 UTC
Quote:
and make some big name pro pvpers (such as Cynthia Nezmor) dock up for good.


Confirming Cynthia Nezmor is so pro that he doesn't undock without boosts.

I mean, really? Boosting in general needs to die in a fire. On grid is perfectly reasonable, it forces the decision to be made to have to move toward fleet objectives, or to defend your asset in the form of your booster ship. Why else do those damn things have half a million EHP worth of tank anyway? It's not like you can't pop the scram ship in the ten minutes it takes them to break the tank on those goddamn things.

Basically, it turns what were already some of the most resilient bait in the game, into even better bait. No issues there.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Andrea Griffin
#8 - 2013-07-04 01:58:32 UTC
I challenge your claim that it helps small gang PvP. A large gang is just as, if not more, likely to have links as well.

If anything it inhibits solo PvP, since a true solo pilot isn't running around with links while much of the competition is.

CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#9 - 2013-07-04 02:01:24 UTC
Andrea Griffin wrote:
a true solo pilot isn't running around with links while much of the competition is.

Do you even play the game, or just forum warrior? 'Cause that's just flat out false.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#10 - 2013-07-04 02:05:59 UTC
On-grid command ships will be juicy targets. PvP will not die. In fact PvP will improve since people won't have to second-guess whether that "solo" target actually has a fleet of boosters supporting them.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-07-04 02:11:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Andrea Griffin wrote:
a true solo pilot isn't running around with links while much of the competition is.

Do you even play the game, or just forum warrior? 'Cause that's just flat out false.



When someone claiming to be ZDA pvp master whatsoever needs faction/officer fits with an invulnerable top skilled off grid booster, strong combat boosters to fight a couple dudes without boosting ships, unorganized, with regular fits (sometimes absolutely horrible ones) make a stupid video and put it on the internet to get attention from dummies and think he's special, claim if links are gone he will not undock or leave the game, imho he needs medical attention and can actually gtfo my guess is that no one cares about his uberness but himself.

You can copy pasta this post to him and if he feels buthurt I've got a T1 Ibis and this untrained character ready to fight him and offer him some "good fights" for his future video about uberness and pvp skill.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Zircon Dasher
#12 - 2013-07-04 02:13:58 UTC
Sooo.....FW player wants combat ship with innate WCS.

I am shocked I tell you! Shocked!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-07-04 03:07:56 UTC
Just nerf offgrid boosting and CS's are fine. They tank like a brick wall already. Make em a little more nimble to keep up with cruisers maybe but otherwise leave them. The problem isn't that Boost ships are bad, its that cloaky/stabbed offgrid T3's do the same job with a thousand times less risk.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-07-04 03:18:09 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
Just nerf offgrid boosting and CS's are fine. They tank like a brick wall already. Make em a little more nimble to keep up with cruisers maybe but otherwise leave them. The problem isn't that Boost ships are bad, its that cloaky/stabbed offgrid T3's do the same job with a thousand times less risk.



T3s do a better job than Command ships due to the sub system bonus. They also have no tank and can be probed out. Saying they are at less risk than a Command Ship is not true.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#15 - 2013-07-04 03:22:30 UTC
Varesk wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Just nerf offgrid boosting and CS's are fine. They tank like a brick wall already. Make em a little more nimble to keep up with cruisers maybe but otherwise leave them. The problem isn't that Boost ships are bad, its that cloaky/stabbed offgrid T3's do the same job with a thousand times less risk.



T3s do a better job than Command ships due to the sub system bonus. They also have no tank and can be probed out. Saying they are at less risk than a Command Ship is not true.


They also tend to be parked behind POS shields.

So on any small gang roam you will need a prober ship to probe down the OGB, and a cyno to bring in your POS bashing fleet, or a spy in the target corp to change the POS password.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Varesk
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-07-04 03:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Varesk
Mara Rinn wrote:
Varesk wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Just nerf offgrid boosting and CS's are fine. They tank like a brick wall already. Make em a little more nimble to keep up with cruisers maybe but otherwise leave them. The problem isn't that Boost ships are bad, its that cloaky/stabbed offgrid T3's do the same job with a thousand times less risk.



T3s do a better job than Command ships due to the sub system bonus. They also have no tank and can be probed out. Saying they are at less risk than a Command Ship is not true.


They also tend to be parked behind POS shields.

So on any small gang roam you will need a prober ship to probe down the OGB, and a cyno to bring in your POS bashing fleet, or a spy in the target corp to change the POS password.



Yes because on a roam you will have towers set up in every system you are fighting in. I run links almost every fleet I am on, I have only sat in a tower 5 times in the last year and a half.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-07-04 05:44:11 UTC
Varesk wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Just nerf offgrid boosting and CS's are fine. They tank like a brick wall already. Make em a little more nimble to keep up with cruisers maybe but otherwise leave them. The problem isn't that Boost ships are bad, its that cloaky/stabbed offgrid T3's do the same job with a thousand times less risk.



T3s do a better job than Command ships due to the sub system bonus. They also have no tank and can be probed out. Saying they are at less risk than a Command Ship is not true.




Anybody who manages to get caught in a boosting T3 needs to go back to WoW.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2013-07-04 06:36:21 UTC
There's a really simple fix to boosting, that favours small gangs over large fleets, and turns the alt-role into an interesting player role:

Make links targeted modules, with the usual cycle times, overheat mechanics, and stacking penalties. Increase the number of highslot links a CS can run, and give the links EWAR-like range.

Suddenly you have a new combat role that is challenging and fun to play, and where advantage is created by player skill, tactics and gang coordination instead of "safe up, alt-tab and forget".

.
Logical Chaos
Very Italian People
The Initiative.
#19 - 2013-07-04 07:41:23 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Varesk wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
Just nerf offgrid boosting and CS's are fine. They tank like a brick wall already. Make em a little more nimble to keep up with cruisers maybe but otherwise leave them. The problem isn't that Boost ships are bad, its that cloaky/stabbed offgrid T3's do the same job with a thousand times less risk.



T3s do a better job than Command ships due to the sub system bonus. They also have no tank and can be probed out. Saying they are at less risk than a Command Ship is not true.


They also tend to be parked behind POS shields.

So on any small gang roam you will need a prober ship to probe down the OGB, and a cyno to bring in your POS bashing fleet, or a spy in the target corp to change the POS password.


The POS argument is only true for some alliance battles RFing **** etc.

If you engage typical stationcampers in their home system it is your own fault...

Everybody else does not have a POS in every system. If someone would make a habit of using this the way it is meant T3s would have a hard time providing boosts:

[Buzzard, byebye T3]
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Co-Processor II

Scan Pinpointing Array II
Scan Rangefinding Array II
Scan Acquisition Array II
Scan Pinpointing Array II
1MN Microwarpdrive II

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Expanded Probe Launcher II, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
[empty high slot]

Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I
Small Gravity Capacitor Upgrade I

But people here want the following: Someone with 2 Accounts has no advantage over someone with 1 Account (since all people want is to completely remove OGB therefore making it disappear since no one will bother with CSes on site in their current state).

Newsflash for you: People will go Falcon since Tengu is trained on that char anyway. Will be loads of fun for you.

Its EVE! Adapt aka Give CCP that juicy income from a second account and probe that damned T3.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#20 - 2013-07-04 07:50:11 UTC
maybe limit offgrid boosting to fleets of 3 pilots size? so that the boosting modules will need to be on grid for any fleet that has more than 3 characters?
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