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Jump Freighter Ganking - CCP what you will do against this???

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#281 - 2013-07-03 17:38:37 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
no i'm pretty sure claims need to be backed up. i'm not only asking for an indication bs were needed but intention of bs to be needed and intention of bs requirement to gank due to respective costs of the ships.

and the fact that cargo containers were changed to be scannable indicates that the unscannability of cargo containers was considered to be unbalanced.

They're not "claims" they're historical facts. As for the devs the intention can be reached by the fact the system of EHP vs DPS has existed since EvE first launched. Again reached by the EHP buff the devs made because ships were popping to quickly in combat. Its not rocket science.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#282 - 2013-07-03 17:42:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
no i'm pretty sure claims need to be backed up. i'm not only asking for an indication bs were needed but intention of bs to be needed and intention of bs requirement to gank due to respective costs of the ships.

and the fact that cargo containers were changed to be scannable indicates that the unscannability of cargo containers was considered to be unbalanced.

They're not "claims" they're historical facts. As for the devs the intention can be reached by the fact the system of EHP vs DPS has existed since EvE first launched. Again reached by the EHP buff the devs made because ships were popping to quickly in combat. Its not rocket science.

you're claiming they are facts, yes. this does not make them facts.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#283 - 2013-07-03 17:45:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Since these ganks cannot fail


For the third bloody time



PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS SO

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#284 - 2013-07-03 17:48:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
A risk is only a risk if it has chance in it.
Nope. A risk is any cost (including negative ones) that can have a probaility value attached to it. If that probability happens to come out as 1, it just makes it a very high risk. The only way for it to be no risk is if we equate zero risk (cost = 0 or probability = 0) with “no” risk, but strictly speaking, that's still a risk at a value of zero.

Quote:
Since these ganks cannot fail
…except that they can. So: since these ganks can fail, and since there's even the chance that you won't lose your ship in the process, the probability isn't 1 to begin with, so even with a limited definition of risk where p<1, it's still a risk.

Probability and chance are the same thing.

They cant fail if you bring enough ships. Its a mathematical certainty a ship which cannot fit a variable tank with a set max number of hit points will be destroyed if the DPS output exceeds the EHP of the ship and the ship cannot escape.

There maybe a very remote possibility the bumpers may both lose connection at the same time on the off chance someone messed up and the ship didn't pop initially and reshipping is required but thats stretching things a little far.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#285 - 2013-07-03 17:53:14 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Since these ganks cannot fail


For the third bloody time



PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS SO

I explained it above. If you do it right the freighter will pop every time. If you do it wrong you can bump till people reship.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#286 - 2013-07-03 17:57:15 UTC
Elder TheRock wrote:
NEXT sensless Jumpfreighter was ganked by Goons

Cargovalue: 1.2 bil

CCP you want this kind of "pvp"....if yes, you will lost all old players
which gave your game the chance to grow 10 years ago!


I play now over 8 years Eve....but now its over for me....

and all other players who want to tell me: "why you re so dump and fly in highsec with your Jumpfreighter"

It was not my, it was only a good friend in my corporation....the second one in the last 2 month....

we will quit now....


THANKYOU CCP
Regards
Tom

After 8 years of playing this game, if you did not learn that autopiloting will hurt your feelings... so i suspect bad troll. 1/10.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#287 - 2013-07-03 18:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Since these ganks cannot fail


For the third bloody time



PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW THIS IS SO

I explained it above. If you do it right the freighter will pop every time. If you do it wrong you can bump till people reship.



Sorry which post number is it? I cant find it



Sorry for shouting if Ive gone temporarily blind

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#288 - 2013-07-03 18:04:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I explained it above. If you do it right the freighter will pop every time. If you do it wrong you can bump till people reship.
if we're balancing on the idea that everyone always does everything perfectly

let's hypothetically give the freighter pilot as many perfectly competent friends in rookie ships as the gankers do taloses and brutixes and catalysts and scouts and bumpers

and balance from there

ps the velators have webs
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2013-07-03 18:12:26 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I explained it above. If you do it right the freighter will pop every time. If you do it wrong you can bump till people reship.
if we're balancing on the idea that everyone always does everything perfectly

let's hypothetically give the freighter pilot as many perfectly competent friends in rookie ships as the gankers do taloses and brutixes and catalysts and scouts and bumpers

and balance from there

ps the velators have webs

We're discussing a gank of a single jump freighter in high sec. Not metagaming fleet freighter warfare.

As for your previous comment on fact - what I described is historical EvE fact. Been playing since 2003 and know this to be accurate. Look up the very first freighter ganks and read corresponding threads comments.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#290 - 2013-07-03 18:30:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
We're discussing a gank of a single jump freighter in high sec. Not metagaming fleet freighter warfare.

As for your previous comment on fact - what I described is historical EvE fact. Been playing since 2003 and know this to be accurate. Look up the very first freighter ganks and read corresponding threads comments.

i'm trying to compare equal amounts of effort put in by both gankers and target (hypothetically) in an attempt to properly assess balance. we'll assume both sides make absolutely no mistakes as you do when you claim there is no risk in ganking.

i've been thinking a bit and i'd like to add one more fact i'd like you to provide (you have provided none as of yet) - that past freighter balance goals (which we don't actually know what they are yet) are the same as any current freighter balance goals. please write this down wherever you wrote the other facts you need to provide to back up your claims so you don't forget to follow it up.

if you can also comment on why so few organised freighter ganks occur despite it being so simple and riskless that'd also be great
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#291 - 2013-07-03 18:38:18 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Probability and chance are the same thing.
No. Chance is the (indeterministic) result of the application of probabilities. Even if you were the equate the two, it doesn't particularly change anything. Just because the probability|chance is 1 doesn't mean that there is no risk — just that the risk is the full value of the cost.

Quote:
They cant fail if you bring enough ships.
Sure they can. Everyone rolls a 100 on their to-hit rolls, miss completely, and keep doing enough times to not do enough damage before they get shot to pieces themslves. Probability of gank success <1.

Conversely, everyone might roll 1 on their to-hit rolls, getting 3× damage crits and miraculously alpha the poor thing with their DPS ships, so by the time the last guy is firing, the target is gone and he has nothing to shoot at. Probability of ship loss <1.
Istyn
Freight Club
#292 - 2013-07-03 18:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Istyn
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I explained it above. If you do it right the freighter will pop every time. If you do it wrong you can bump till people reship.
if we're balancing on the idea that everyone always does everything perfectly

let's hypothetically give the freighter pilot as many perfectly competent friends in rookie ships as the gankers do taloses and brutixes and catalysts and scouts and bumpers

and balance from there

ps the velators have webs

We're discussing a gank of a single jump freighter in high sec. Not metagaming fleet freighter warfare.


Everyone else replying to you has already gone over how your ideas are bad so I just wondered if, in all your time thinking about risk, you had also thought about effort involved. As you've been claiming that ganks can't fail if they manage to be doing everything perfectly 100% of the time, did you think about how much effort is involved in that in comparison to the effort expended by hitting autopilot?

Just a thought.

edit: Figured it's worth also mentioning that while a gank might 'succeed' and the target die, it can easily fail and lose money if the high value is in a single item/stack/can/plastic wrap and the loot fairy says no.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#293 - 2013-07-03 18:46:47 UTC
You know that a jump freighter is worse than a normal freighter for hauling, right?

HTFU and do what a jump freighter is made for, jumping out.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#294 - 2013-07-03 18:50:38 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Phish wrote:
Honestly it is a very stupid mechanic. To let a bunch of ships that total less then 30M kill a freighter. There needs to be a way to fight back on the freighters side, so if your AFK your dead but if your active and there you can so something with at least a chance of saving your ship. (a chance, doesn't have to be 100%, but at least 50% would be nice)



Whereas the value of a hull should have an idea of how well it can perform... the value of the ships don't really have anything to do with its' roles (in other fields-edit-).

A sentinel can ewar a helluva lot better than an Abaddon for instance.

My pilgrim I use as a fun hostile territory blockade runner can never freight my pi better than a freighter, but it can transverse my movements better and safer, at the cost of more trips.

Point being... cost doesn't have anything to do with this scenario.

Cost is a big factor in MMOs because it balances the game. Theres a reason freighters were introduced in game with huge (at the time) EHP. They were expensive ships and so to gank one one needed to sacrifice a large number of expensive battleships. If cost wasnt a factor they would have had 10000 EHP and you could have ganked then with a couple of cruisers.

Since they were introduced changes have made them gankable with a lot less ships than originally intended. Changes have also made their contents scannable where before with containers they couldnt be. The cost has been drastically reduced and an imbalance makes them quite pointless to use to transport valusble bulk cargo - the role they are intended to perform.



I'd think that the mineral cost in building such a behemoth would actually attribute to it's cost versus trying to infer it's survivability is based on the amount of isk you spent on it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#295 - 2013-07-03 19:00:56 UTC
I also really hope you guys aren't trying to bring up risk and cost again. That's foolhardy and has been gone over again.

When you buy gas for the intention of putting it in your car, you aren't risking losing that amount of money. You spend it. You know even if you do not put that gas in your car (such as another container) you will lose some of it, simply due to evaporation. Even if the fuel does not get combusted.

It's the nature of the stuff.

Now, you CAN however try to eliminate cost... but you cannot eliminate the waste. It will happen regardless.

If you buy a gank ship, and keep it in your hangar.. you still lost the amount of money spent on it. Whether it gets blown up in a failed gank, a successful gank, or never used again.

That's not risk. That's cost. It's spent. No matter what happens to it.

You risk not getting any reward, but you don't risk the money spent already on it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#296 - 2013-07-03 19:05:00 UTC
Just a quick thought:

The logic here is apparently that given enough gankers the outcome is inevitable if I'm reading this correctly. Because of this attribute, the outcome is certain. Given this logic, we should be playing in a game where all things are happening simultaneously because of unlimited participants? All freighters are being ganked, all materials are being hauled, all TCUs are being shot, etc.

I mean, given enough gankers, a freighter will die.
Given enough freighters, a load will get moved.
Given enough shooters, a TCU will be shot.

Thoughts on this?

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#297 - 2013-07-03 19:09:45 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Just a quick thought:

The logic here is apparently that given enough gankers the outcome is inevitable if I'm reading this correctly. Because of this attribute, the outcome is certain. Given this logic, we should be playing in a game where all things are happening simultaneously because of unlimited participants? All freighters are being ganked, all materials are being hauled, all TCUs are being shot, etc.

I mean, given enough gankers, a freighter will die.
Given enough freighters, a load will get moved.
Given enough shooters, a TCU will be shot.

Thoughts on this?

You only need one Boat to have a TCU shot. One boat and enough time....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#298 - 2013-07-03 19:15:17 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
You know that a jump freighter is worse than a normal freighter for hauling, right?
Nah. JFs are worse for hauling tons of stuff, but for just carting around merely a large amount of stuff, they're hellalot better since they're that much more agile (and sturdy).
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#299 - 2013-07-03 19:16:46 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Just a quick thought:

The logic here is apparently that given enough gankers the outcome is inevitable if I'm reading this correctly. Because of this attribute, the outcome is certain. Given this logic, we should be playing in a game where all things are happening simultaneously because of unlimited participants? All freighters are being ganked, all materials are being hauled, all TCUs are being shot, etc.

I mean, given enough gankers, a freighter will die.
Given enough freighters, a load will get moved.
Given enough shooters, a TCU will be shot.

Thoughts on this?



Blob rules?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#300 - 2013-07-04 04:38:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Probability and chance are the same thing.
No. Chance is the (indeterministic) result of the application of probabilities. Even if you were the equate the two, it doesn't particularly change anything. Just because the probability|chance is 1 doesn't mean that there is no risk — just that the risk is the full value of the cost.

Quote:
They cant fail if you bring enough ships.
Sure they can. Everyone rolls a 100 on their to-hit rolls, miss completely, and keep doing enough times to not do enough damage before they get shot to pieces themslves. Probability of gank success <1.

Conversely, everyone might roll 1 on their to-hit rolls, getting 3× damage crits and miraculously alpha the poor thing with their DPS ships, so by the time the last guy is firing, the target is gone and he has nothing to shoot at. Probability of ship loss <1.

Nice try but hitting a freighter with light missiles, or even med guns is a certainty.

And the ship popping and not getting concordekened is a moot point.

You're arguing semantics which have no bearing on the discussion. More obfuscation, have an indefensible point of view argue semantic technicalities to avoid the inescapable truth that you're wrong even if that argument is the reverse of what you were originally trying to prove - ie its not 100% certain your ship is an expense because they dont always die.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)