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So high sec miners, expect to get screwed more

Author
Lyza Kimbo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-06-30 17:36:29 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
CCP cannot wrap their heads around why many don't want to head off to low sec or nully.


(the above quote has been heavily edited for brevity)

This, exactly. They keep trying, over and over, to enforce these coercive solutions, and they don't seem to realize how much resentment that creates. Or if they do, they brush it off with their basic arrogance of attitude.

And yet, they're still afloat when many of their contemporaries have sunk. It's hard to argue with ten years of success.


EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-06-30 17:38:24 UTC
Eric Raeder wrote:
The trouble with nullsec is you have to spend so much time and energy licking the boots of your alliance masters. And listening to them brag how big their genitalia are. Believe it or not, a primary reason so many people play in highsec is so they can be independent and not put up with all the political nonsense associated with nullsec. ISK per hour be damned.

i can force our members to lick my boots?

i gotta get on that
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#23 - 2013-06-30 17:44:46 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Eric Raeder wrote:
The trouble with nullsec is you have to spend so much time and energy licking the boots of your alliance masters. And listening to them brag how big their genitalia are. Believe it or not, a primary reason so many people play in highsec is so they can be independent and not put up with all the political nonsense associated with nullsec. ISK per hour be damned.

i can force our members to lick my boots?

i gotta get on that



I wouldn't.

It really does nothing for the shine. you need spit /and/ polish.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Lyza Kimbo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-06-30 17:45:53 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Eric Raeder wrote:
The trouble with nullsec is you have to spend so much time and energy licking the boots of your alliance masters. And listening to them brag how big their genitalia are. Believe it or not, a primary reason so many people play in highsec is so they can be independent and not put up with all the political nonsense associated with nullsec. ISK per hour be damned.

i can force our members to lick my boots?

i gotta get on that


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL4dDHIBVHs

Roll
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-06-30 17:52:04 UTC
Lyza Kimbo wrote:
Q 5 wrote:
CCP cannot wrap their heads around why many don't want to head off to low sec or nully.


(the above quote has been heavily edited for brevity)

This, exactly. They keep trying, over and over, to enforce these coercive solutions, and they don't seem to realize how much resentment that creates. Or if they do, they brush it off with their basic arrogance of attitude.

And yet, they're still afloat when many of their contemporaries have sunk. It's hard to argue with ten years of success.





How dare CCP try and do more than mine worthless ores in 0.7 space. Don't they understand that being a dirt poor space-peasant is fun/what eve is all about???

Lyza Kimbo wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
Eric Raeder wrote:
The trouble with nullsec is you have to spend so much time and energy licking the boots of your alliance masters. And listening to them brag how big their genitalia are. Believe it or not, a primary reason so many people play in highsec is so they can be independent and not put up with all the political nonsense associated with nullsec. ISK per hour be damned.

i can force our members to lick my boots?

i gotta get on that


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL4dDHIBVHs

Roll


What.
Lyza Kimbo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-06-30 18:06:23 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:

How dare CCP try and do more than mine worthless ores in 0.7 space. Don't they understand that being a dirt poor space-peasant is fun/what eve is all about???



(the above quote has been heavily edited for brevity)

This type of strawman argument was very effective ten years ago, but with the increasing sophistication of forum users, more and more people are starting to recognise it for the nonsense that it truly is.
Frank Pannon
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2013-07-01 08:02:19 UTC
Am at work and can not listen to the audio, can you please in a few short points summarize what he said?

- what will be highest possible refine rate?
- will it differ in high, low, null, WH?
- were any implications noted on manufacturing?

Thank you.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#28 - 2013-07-01 15:06:47 UTC
Frank Pannon wrote:
Am at work and can not listen to the audio, can you please in a few short points summarize what he said?

- what will be highest possible refine rate?
- will it differ in high, low, null, WH?
- were any implications noted on manufacturing?

Thank you.



Frank, when you get home, go to the Eve radio archives and listen to the entirety of the interview, if you can stand it that long.

Bottom line, the game designer gave zero solid information, and no hard numbers, about the upcoming refine nerf to high sec.
But keep in mind, this is the same guy that said "I want to make ice the oil of Eve", and look what happened a month later to the high sec chunk of the ice industry. Or how, he was going to make a "slight change to RP income", which resulted in a 80-90% nerf in RP income.

And as for manufacturing, he talked in very oblique terms about a complete overhaul of industry that would extend well beyond the timeline of one release. But if you look at the past track record of what the null sec cartel lobbyists have screamed for on the forums, and then match that with the nerfs that followed to high sec income, it is certain that this will be very bad for high sec. (Just like Ice mining, ore mining this year alone).
Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#29 - 2013-07-01 15:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Pretty sure you can't get perfect refine at a 30% station even with max skills/implant. 35% too I think.

While the OP seems to have a major beef with nullsec, et al. his point on Soundwave's influence is correct IMO. I can see some sort of change like this coming.

However, what should that look like? For me, my issue with empire refining is that it is so easy to get perfect refining while in null it's much more difficult. You need a refining implant and level 4 processing skills to get perfect refining at a 40% station, which had to be upgraded. That upgrade is not cheap nor logistically easy to do. In empire, find your nearest combat agent, crank out standings to 6.67 and have basic refining skills. That is imbalanced IMO.

Personally I'd like to see something change, so Soundwave's comments are fine by me. Maybe change your refine tax affected by straight standings with the NPC corp. Have 2.0 standings? You only keep 20% refining of the we take value. Want 100%? Get 10.0 standings. Or possibly add some increased we take formula to the NPC corp. In null the alliance controlling the station gets a cut, why do people in empire get a way out of this? Make it a fixed 5 or 10% in empire.

Anyway, I'm sure they will come up with something, which is needed. Not allowing perfect refine anywhere though won't really accomplish anything though. It'll just set a new status quo for the cap and prices will adjust. I say allow it, but you gotta work for it. Much more dynamic gameplay that way IMO.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#30 - 2013-07-01 16:44:54 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Pretty sure you can't get perfect refine at a 30% station even with max skills/implant. 35% too I think.

While the OP seems to have a major beef with nullsec, et al. his point on Soundwave's influence is correct IMO. I can see some sort of change like this coming.

However, what should that look like? For me, my issue with empire refining is that it is so easy to get perfect refining while in null it's much more difficult. You need a refining implant and level 4 processing skills to get perfect refining at a 40% station, which had to be upgraded. That upgrade is not cheap nor logistically easy to do. In empire, find your nearest combat agent, crank out standings to 6.67 and have basic refining skills. That is imbalanced IMO.

Personally I'd like to see somrthing change, so Soundwaves comments are fine by me. Maybe change your refine tax affected by straight standings with the NPC corp. Have 2.0 standings? You only keep 20% refining of the we take value. Want 100%? Get 10.0 standings. Or possibly add some increased we take formula to the NPC corp. In null the alliance controlling the station gets a cut, why do people in empire get a way out of this? Make it a fixed 5 or 10% in empire.

Anyway, I'm sure they will come up with something, which is needed. Not allowing perfect refine anywhere though won't really accomplish anything though. It'll just set a new status quo for the cap and prices will adjust. I say allow it, but you gotta work for it. Much more dynamic gameplay that way IMO.


Listen to the interview. He made it clear that no place should have perfect refine. He did not differentiate between pre and post skill refine. He said everywhere should have some element of waste.

Wormholes already deal with a 25% waste, regardless of skills. That is of course, incredibly unfair.
Some null sec stations as you pointed out, with the proper modules and skills , achieve perfect refine.

So any attack against refine waste is aimed squarely at high sec.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#31 - 2013-07-01 18:00:08 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
Good, let them nerf hi sec into the ground.

It's a technique called slowly raise the heat on the frog and it won't know it's getting cooked.

.


This is also called cooking the goose that lays the golden egg: face it its the HI SEC population that pays for the most subsciptions & profit for CCP. CCP has become aware that the game is made up of mostly non coalition pilots and if smart they'll strive for a balance once they see if such practices do hurt Eve as a whole. I wouldn't doubt that the ORE mining ship buf was a reaction to this after the drone drop nerf
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#32 - 2013-07-01 20:38:18 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Pretty sure you can't get perfect refine at a 30% station even with max skills/implant. 35% too I think.

While the OP seems to have a major beef with nullsec, et al. his point on Soundwave's influence is correct IMO. I can see some sort of change like this coming.

However, what should that look like? For me, my issue with empire refining is that it is so easy to get perfect refining while in null it's much more difficult. You need a refining implant and level 4 processing skills to get perfect refining at a 40% station, which had to be upgraded. That upgrade is not cheap nor logistically easy to do. In empire, find your nearest combat agent, crank out standings to 6.67 and have basic refining skills. That is imbalanced IMO.

Personally I'd like to see somrthing change, so Soundwaves comments are fine by me. Maybe change your refine tax affected by straight standings with the NPC corp. Have 2.0 standings? You only keep 20% refining of the we take value. Want 100%? Get 10.0 standings. Or possibly add some increased we take formula to the NPC corp. In null the alliance controlling the station gets a cut, why do people in empire get a way out of this? Make it a fixed 5 or 10% in empire.

Anyway, I'm sure they will come up with something, which is needed. Not allowing perfect refine anywhere though won't really accomplish anything though. It'll just set a new status quo for the cap and prices will adjust. I say allow it, but you gotta work for it. Much more dynamic gameplay that way IMO.


Listen to the interview. He made it clear that no place should have perfect refine. He did not differentiate between pre and post skill refine. He said everywhere should have some element of waste.

Wormholes already deal with a 25% waste, regardless of skills. That is of course, incredibly unfair.
Some null sec stations as you pointed out, with the proper modules and skills , achieve perfect refine.

So any attack against refine waste is aimed squarely at high sec.


What assets of yours are at risk when refining shtuff in highsec?

Seriously, a Nullsec NPC outpost requires 20 billion in costs, and can be usurped by the nearest supercapital fleet. A POS, while not costing multibillions, is still a moderately costly asset that can be attacked at any time... These vulnerable assets should be the creme-de-la-creme of refining, not some safe highsec station!!!

Reward players that put their assets at risk... it is that simple, and currently, with regards to industry, our game is backwards:
Manufacturing: Best (as in most accessible slots) is in Highsec
Refining: Best (as in least waste, and ease of accessibility) is in Highsec
Same with all the other S&I stuff... easy access to materials, production lines, and safest logistics...


Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-07-01 21:42:20 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Pretty sure you can't get perfect refine at a 30% station even with max skills/implant. 35% too I think.

Only Minmatar outposts get refining built-in. To get 30% refining at another racial outpost involves spending tens of billions of isk in upgrades to your 20 billion isk outpost. I believe that with max skills and the best refining implant that you can get perfect refining at a 30% station.

I only refine my nullsec ores in a Minmatar station because I can't fly a Rorqual yet and ship the compressed ore back to highsec for refining and manufacturing.

The cure to fixing nullsec industry is to make nullsec stations as good as highsec stations. At the moment, the best nullsec outposts are on par with the worst highsec stations. Even adding large amounts of manufacturing slots didn't fix this issue. Making highsec refining and manufacturing as bad as nullsec refining and manufacturing means that you need 30-50% profit margins on ships, instead of the current razor thin margins on post-tiercided ships. With the base 10% mineral waste on a 0/0 blueprint, and the 5% waste due to the players lack of PE, a beginning manufacturer cannot compete in the market with ships.

I think a better solution would be a carrot-and-stick approach, but currently it appears that only the stick is going to be used. Now that the grav sites are now directly scannable, I think nullsec industry is only going to get worse. Only if you have a deep sov network will you be able to mine with enough safety to make it worthwhile.
Zifrian wrote:

Personally I'd like to see something change, so Soundwaves comments are fine by me. Maybe change your refine tax affected by straight standings with the NPC corp. Have 2.0 standings? You only keep 20% refining of the we take value. Want 100%? Get 10.0 standings. Or possibly add some increased we take formula to the NPC corp. In null the alliance controlling the station gets a cut, why do people in empire get a way out of this? Make it a fixed 5 or 10% in empire.

Anyway, I'm sure they will come up with something, which is needed. Not allowing perfect refine anywhere though won't really accomplish anything though. It'll just set a new status quo for the cap and prices will adjust. I say allow it, but you gotta work for it. Much more dynamic gameplay that way IMO.
This is no different than adding yet another layer of "extra materials" to blueprints. It means build now because next year's ships will cost far more in minerals, and people with stockpiles now will thrive, while latecomers get shafted. Just like every time there is a tiercide.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#34 - 2013-07-01 22:04:29 UTC
Huttan Funaila wrote:

I think a better solution would be a carrot-and-stick approach, but currently it appears that only the stick is going to be used. Now that the grav sites are now directly scannable, I think nullsec industry is only going to get worse. Only if you have a deep sov network will you be able to mine with enough safety to make it worthwhile.



I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "deep sov network", but you can do the mining in many areas of space with relative safety:

1.) You can use bubbles to your advantage (mining at a belt or site, simply anchor a bubble 100 or 200 or 300 km's inline with the entrance hostiles are most likely to take.

2.) You can bubble the in gates to make it hard for people to arrive.

3.) Don't mine at zero

4.) Have an intel network (eyes to warn you to get safe).

I hunt ratters/miners in nullsec all the time, and those that employ these tactics are fairly hard to catch!

The hardest part about nullsec mining is getting the ore somewhere you can sell / use... It's the logistics involved in moving large quantities of ore about that is the true difficulty, but maybe that's what you meant..
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#35 - 2013-07-01 22:26:51 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Pretty sure you can't get perfect refine at a 30% station even with max skills/implant. 35% too I think.

While the OP seems to have a major beef with nullsec, et al. his point on Soundwave's influence is correct IMO. I can see some sort of change like this coming.

However, what should that look like? For me, my issue with empire refining is that it is so easy to get perfect refining while in null it's much more difficult. You need a refining implant and level 4 processing skills to get perfect refining at a 40% station, which had to be upgraded. That upgrade is not cheap nor logistically easy to do. In empire, find your nearest combat agent, crank out standings to 6.67 and have basic refining skills. That is imbalanced IMO.

Personally I'd like to see somrthing change, so Soundwaves comments are fine by me. Maybe change your refine tax affected by straight standings with the NPC corp. Have 2.0 standings? You only keep 20% refining of the we take value. Want 100%? Get 10.0 standings. Or possibly add some increased we take formula to the NPC corp. In null the alliance controlling the station gets a cut, why do people in empire get a way out of this? Make it a fixed 5 or 10% in empire.

Anyway, I'm sure they will come up with something, which is needed. Not allowing perfect refine anywhere though won't really accomplish anything though. It'll just set a new status quo for the cap and prices will adjust. I say allow it, but you gotta work for it. Much more dynamic gameplay that way IMO.


Listen to the interview. He made it clear that no place should have perfect refine. He did not differentiate between pre and post skill refine. He said everywhere should have some element of waste.

Wormholes already deal with a 25% waste, regardless of skills. That is of course, incredibly unfair.
Some null sec stations as you pointed out, with the proper modules and skills , achieve perfect refine.

So any attack against refine waste is aimed squarely at high sec.


What assets of yours are at risk when refining shtuff in highsec?

Seriously, a Nullsec NPC outpost requires 20 billion in costs, and can be usurped by the nearest supercapital fleet. A POS, while not costing multibillions, is still a moderately costly asset that can be attacked at any time... These vulnerable assets should be the creme-de-la-creme of refining, not some safe highsec station!!!

Reward players that put their assets at risk... it is that simple, and currently, with regards to industry, our game is backwards:
Manufacturing: Best (as in most accessible slots) is in Highsec
Refining: Best (as in least waste, and ease of accessibility) is in Highsec
Same with all the other S&I stuff... easy access to materials, production lines, and safest logistics...




Nice to see you omit a few details there:

Mineral belts in null sec are vastly more valuable than high sec, in raw value and in ISK / hour, even after any refine differentials.
Ice belts in null sec are vastly more valuable than high sec, in raw value and in ISK / hour, even after any refine differentials.

So don't get started on this "woe is me" crap about null sec. Null sec players already make massive amounts more than high sec players, and you simply are not satisfied with the spread and want it larger.

Oh, and please tell me about the risking of assets when the stations are bought by the alliance with funds from the alliance moon goo, and most null sec alliances have SRP's. If high sec players are making more money than you in null sec, you are simply a bad player, and should return to high sec.

And Gizznitt, you are with Agony, who have zero stations, and I am pretty sure if you got caught mining in Syndicate, well, you would have to contend with more than the people shooting you.
Eric Raeder
No Fee Too High
#36 - 2013-07-02 02:50:21 UTC
I keep reading phrases like "the key to nullsec industry" and schemes to improve mining in nullsec. Some people seem to be confused that mining is the key to industry. Not even close.

Nullsec can be competitive with highsec in raw materials gathering, yes. Null is and likely will remain the primary source for moongoo. It is reasonably competitive with highsec in ore and ice mining. It has a huge competitive advantage over highsec for extracting planetary materials, though few nullsec "industrialists" actually seem to bother.

Where null cannot compete with highsec is in manufacturing. Especially in T2/T3 manufacturing, but even for T1 manufacturing null is iffy. To manufacture stuff, you must have a ready supply of raw materials. Corpmates running erratic mining ops between wars are a possible, if rather iffy, source of minerals. To make T2 items, though, you need whole a laundry list of odd PI and moongoo derived items; for invention you need datacores, for more expensive items decryptors. In most cases, gathering up all these materials in nullsec simply costs far more time and effort than just buying stuff off the market.

And this is why highsec manufacturers will always have an advantage over nullsec manufacturers. They can site their operations close to the markets. As long as there is a highsec, where carebears can fly relatively safely, that is where the game's major markets will be. No nullsec manufacturer, who has to arrange logistics through jump freighters or whatever, to get that last item or two on his raw material list from a highsec market will ever be as competitive as a highsec manufacturer working 3 jumps from Jita.

All this talk of "fixing" nullsec industry by making ore easier to gather in null than high is pretty ********. Having easy to gather ore is never going to "fix" nullsec industry. The only thing that will fix nullsec industry is to make safe places people can congregate together at to swap the bits and pieces they have for other bits and pieces other people have. In other words, turn parts of nullsec into highsec. Which seems to rather defeat the point of null.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-07-02 04:27:21 UTC
... posting in yet another "NERF hi sec because that's how you make NULL SEC gooder and more people will want to go there, see, like we told you all along" threads... Roll

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )

Oxide Ammar
#38 - 2013-07-02 07:11:37 UTC
Eric Raeder wrote:
I keep reading phrases like "the key to nullsec industry" and schemes to improve mining in nullsec. Some people seem to be confused that mining is the key to industry. Not even close.

Nullsec can be competitive with highsec in raw materials gathering, yes. Null is and likely will remain the primary source for moongoo. It is reasonably competitive with highsec in ore and ice mining. It has a huge competitive advantage over highsec for extracting planetary materials, though few nullsec "industrialists" actually seem to bother.

Where null cannot compete with highsec is in manufacturing. Especially in T2/T3 manufacturing, but even for T1 manufacturing null is iffy. To manufacture stuff, you must have a ready supply of raw materials. Corpmates running erratic mining ops between wars are a possible, if rather iffy, source of minerals. To make T2 items, though, you need whole a laundry list of odd PI and moongoo derived items; for invention you need datacores, for more expensive items decryptors. In most cases, gathering up all these materials in nullsec simply costs far more time and effort than just buying stuff off the market.

And this is why highsec manufacturers will always have an advantage over nullsec manufacturers. They can site their operations close to the markets. As long as there is a highsec, where carebears can fly relatively safely, that is where the game's major markets will be. No nullsec manufacturer, who has to arrange logistics through jump freighters or whatever, to get that last item or two on his raw material list from a highsec market will ever be as competitive as a highsec manufacturer working 3 jumps from Jita.

All this talk of "fixing" nullsec industry by making ore easier to gather in null than high is pretty ********. Having easy to gather ore is never going to "fix" nullsec industry. The only thing that will fix nullsec industry is to make safe places people can congregate together at to swap the bits and pieces they have for other bits and pieces other people have. In other words, turn parts of nullsec into highsec. Which seems to rather defeat the point of null.


QFT.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#39 - 2013-07-02 11:23:18 UTC
Hi-sec miners are either morons or afk botters and should be nerfed to hell.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-07-02 12:19:52 UTC
Messing more and more with high sec is good, the less players will be interested playing over there or playing at all is obviously good for Eve and CCP.

Or not, but who cares really?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne