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Scannable Ore sites make low/null/WH mining obsolete.

Author
Aria Ning
White Rabbit Industries
#41 - 2013-06-23 16:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Ning
Hae Sung wrote:
Are the people in this thread complaining about the changes used to mining with fleet support (ie Rorqual/Orca boosts)?

I'm seeing at least three categories of people here - those who ninja mine in space they don't control, those that only control a small amount of space and have difficulty securing it, and those who live in WHs who may fall into one of the above categories.

These are balanced by the people who DO live in space they control as a result of being part of a larger coalition, who DO protect their assets via on-grid countermeasures and off-grid intel, and those who have adapted nicely.

It seem very clear that the change was detrimental to mining in general outside of hisec, but is the adaptation really that severe? The proposals from the other side seem to summarize to "I can't mine solo anymore because people kill me too quickly or I spend all day docked up."

This seems to be really a case of not being in a large enough organization to control your environment.

Was putzing around Providence the other day and came across an industrial index level V system - complete with warp bubbles, guards picketed outside and inside the gates, and actual atk personnel. They noticed me in system, told me to leave, and had the ability to enforce that request had I non complied.

I don't see what's so hard about setting up that sort of a system - if one is wanting to reap the benefits of all the rarer and more valuable materials that are outside of protected spaces.

Yes this does put more high-ends in the hands of the larger groups - but they had the majority of them anyways. Now people who are unorganized or unwilling to create a coalition to seize those rewards are getting cut out due to the barriers to entry. Seems to be working as intended.


I am going to have to agree with this post. The latest mining changes was a buff to Nullsec alliances who protect their assets and a nerf to solo/small freelance miners and if you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Making ore sites anoms means easier access to the ore sites by everyone, which also means you're an easy target from pirates unless you're protected from your corp-mates. Let's not forget CCP did want Null-sec Alliances to fight or disrupt resources in nullsec space and making ore/ice sites anoms is a good start.
Toolishus Dynomatic
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-06-23 22:19:32 UTC
These changes are going to help diversify the game in ways that I for one will not pretend to understand but I do know that the HS multiboxin fatys are in alitttle more need of friends in null sec alliances now. N3 for one is friendly tward cooperative relations with indy corps and I am sure they are not alone. I look forward to the new space scape and I think the new relationships are going to be interesting.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#43 - 2013-06-24 11:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Wow, I had no idea it was so bad. I guess I should dock up all my null miners that are constantly not exploding because I'm actually at my keyboard.

Try mining outside of your big blue SOV space. In Sov space controlled by smaller alliances, not surounded by waves of blue space, and NPC null , the safety net provided by grav sites was a necessity. Even with that safety net mining in those systems was a high enough risk that almost nobody did it. Now without it, it is impossible.

To the OP. I believe CCP knew exactly what they were doing. With the big nerf to moon goo income that went along with the elimination of Technetium as a bottle neck, they have given the large null sec power blocks a monopoly of the null sec ores, as they now can not be mined at an acceptable risk level out side secured SOV space.

What I do not under stand is how CCP can be so blind to the true issue of this game. They know for a fact that these huge power block alliances are part of the problem. CCP developers complain about how stagnant null sec has become and look for ways to drive conflict. Yet they ignore the fact that this stagnation is caused by these huge power blocks. When you or your allies own every system within 40 jumps where do you go for conflict. Along the borders. leaving huge sections of space empty, and dead. Ghost Towns.

Why do we need these huge numbers of ghost town systems? These systems could provide space for smaller entities to get into null. Systems not even used by the groups that own them, systems that serve as nothing but a safety barrier. More small sov holding entities means more boarders, and more conflict. Many of these power blocks control such large area's of null that the systems at there core are safer than high sec. Why? So the members of these power blocks can be safe while they are ratting or otherwise engaging in PVE. Null sec was never meant to provide this level of safety for anyone, it is supposed to be dangerous space. Yet much of it is safer than high sec, and much more profitable. But only for those belonging to one of the power blocks.

The bigger the sov power blocks are, the less borders there are, less boarders means les conflict, less conflict means less PVP. The game was not designed to have player organizations larger and more powerful than the NPC empires. Titans were designed to be almost impossible to build, It was thought that there would only be a few in existence at any one time. Yet now we have hundreds of them. Even fleets of them. The best solution to drive more conflict is not to suppress the small entities while supporting the power blocks. it would be to change game mechanics so these large power blocks can not be so easily maintained. Change the way SOV works so that these big power blocks will fall apart in favor of many more smaller groups.

Make alliances rely on there members for financial support. Bottom up, as has been discussed so many times. But do it in a way that players have to actively support their alliance, not just automatically through taxation. What this would do is make these huge power blocks unmanageable as it would be far to difficult to keep track of who is pulling their weight and who is not. We would see much smaller groups of elite players in the best alliances, while much of the dead weight will end up in other smaller groups, over all leading to more boarders to dispute,and much more conflict, as there would be much more division between those living in null sec.

Rather than simply attacking your neighbors to take there space, how about some new mechanics to pillage space. When attacking an i-hub you could target specific upgrades, as an alternative to destroying the i-hub and taking the system. The attacking corp or alliance could get a payout equal to 50-60% the value of the upgrade they destroyed. Pillage rather than concur.

For PVP to thrive, null sec should be full of many smaller groups that are free to attack each other generating casual PVP, not these massive power blocks engaged in cold war, So afraid to lose what they have that they do not fight unless they know they will win. The massive fleet battles this results in can be epic, but the servers can not support them well. this has gotten much better since TiDi was implemented, but still, EVE was not designed for battles of this scale, and the average PVPer is not content with an epic battle once every couple of months with almost no PVP in between, while assets are rebuilt. Daily smaller battles would make for a much more enjoyable engaging game.


I agree with this completely!

Your later comments about local I do understand, however there are some things detailed in the Eve map that will need to go too, such as number of people in system, in fact if local goes all that stuff will need to go, at which point space becomes very big again.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#44 - 2013-06-24 14:58:09 UTC
Styth spiting wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Oh yes, 10-20 seconds extra time to react to a threat makes no difference at all. WTF have you been smoking. 5 seconds makes a difference. 10 seconds gives you a fighting chance. 20 seconds makes you safe, or at least safe enough to mine in a MAX yield HULK.

Small sov empires, NPC null, and low sec are affected by this even more than W-space dwellers.


I'm not referring to reaction time to a threat but the time it takes afk/idling miners to actually notice a neutral entering system. Yes obviously more time to react to a threat you know about is going to be better, but if a miner or someone in your fleet of miners hasn't noticed a threat in local in the first 10 seconds of them showing up, chances are they wouldn't have noticed in another 10 seconds. The gains that were made from the increases in ore far outweigh the minor loss in security that was gained from a few seconds of possible warning you may have had if you were paying attention. And there is no loss to security for those who are willing to deal with the occasional loss in cheap fitted barges.

Seeing someone in Local is not enough. Being AFK or not. Have you ever mined outside of protected sov space? It has nothing to do with being AFK. I have timed it, jumping into a system, waiting for the grav sites to pop up on scan, f there is one, and warping to it takes about 8-9 seconds. A HULK takes about 10 seconds to warp out. MACK and SKIFF are a little faster. That is a very small window. It is not like mining in static belts were they have to guess which one you are in, if there is only one ore site, any miners in system will likely be in it. Warp in cloaked and you can be within tackle range before decloaking. If you are traveling through nll sec looking for miners to gank, there is a good chance any HULKS or ORCA's will still be there when you reach the belt. even if they were watching local.

Then there is mining in NPC null or low sec, there was always someone in local when I mined there. But very rarely did any of them have a probe launcher, making it some what safe. It was still dangerous enough very few did it, but it was doable. Now it is not. If you were actually a miner you would know those extra 10-20 seconds it took them to scan you down are very important. if you think that your warping out every time you saw a neut in local is all you needed, you don't understand how it worked. Just because you did not watch D-scan for probes does not mean that scan time was not helping you. No matter how well you are watching local, even if you are aligned, with the changes a ganker can jump into system, and warp to the ore site, before a HULK, and certainly an ORCA can warp out. It always worked before because there need to scan you down gave you more time. Now the window is very tight.

Sure, watching local and intel channels is still sufficient when mining deep inside sov space, but read the thread title, this is about NPC null, low sec, and W-space. You do not even have local to watch in W-space. This change is game breaking to miners outside of secured sov space. If you are going to warp out every time a neut pops up in local in those area's you will not be doing much mining. Even if you make 3 times the isk/m3 that you get in high sec, you need to spend at least 20 minutes out of every hour actually mining, not setting up, hiding, or moving, actually mining just to break even. If I am going to spend 90% of my time hiding it is not worth it. I would make more staying in high sec. And that is the big issue. With grav sites that extra layer of safety is what made it work. It still did not work well, as almost nobody did it, but now it does not work at all.

I am not asking for the changes to be undone. Just give us back grav sites. Add in new ones rather than reverting the ore anomalies back. Give us hard to find grav sites that spawn randomly all over new eden. Large sites worth actually mining. leave the ore anomalies for upgraded sov since they are working so well for nullbear miners. just add new random spawning grav sites on top of the converted ore anomalies.

While we are adding grav sites, how about a whole new chain of signature sites for all exploration branches, Sites that are much harder to find/scan down then what we currently have. Some thing to give veteran explorers a challenge to find. With the changes to exploration brought with odyssey any noob can now find any site with a few hour training and some basic equipment. Those of us with maxed scan skills and faction equipment no longer have any high skilled content. it has ALL BEEN KNOCKED DOWN TO ENTRY LEVEL. I do not want to see the entry level access to this content changed, I think it was a good move, But give us some high level exploration content as a goal for those noob explorers to work towards, and us veteran explores something to do. Having it all at entry level with nothing harder to reach for makes no sense to me. It really bothers me that after train months to get near maxed scanning skills, I can not find anything that a 2 week old noob can not find. being able to find it slightly faster was not worth the training time.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#45 - 2013-06-24 15:34:11 UTC
Hae Sung wrote:
Are the people in this thread complaining about the changes used to mining with fleet support (ie Rorqual/Orca boosts)?

I'm seeing at least three categories of people here - those who ninja mine in space they don't control, those that only control a small amount of space and have difficulty securing it, and those who live in WHs who may fall into one of the above categories.

These are balanced by the people who DO live in space they control as a result of being part of a larger coalition, who DO protect their assets via on-grid countermeasures and off-grid intel, and those who have adapted nicely.

It seem very clear that the change was detrimental to mining in general outside of hisec, but is the adaptation really that severe? The proposals from the other side seem to summarize to "I can't mine solo anymore because people kill me too quickly or I spend all day docked up."

This seems to be really a case of not being in a large enough organization to control your environment.

Was putzing around Providence the other day and came across an industrial index level V system - complete with warp bubbles, guards picketed outside and inside the gates, and actual atk personnel. They noticed me in system, told me to leave, and had the ability to enforce that request had I non complied.

I don't see what's so hard about setting up that sort of a system - if one is wanting to reap the benefits of all the rarer and more valuable materials that are outside of protected spaces.

Yes this does put more high-ends in the hands of the larger groups - but they had the majority of them anyways. Now people who are unorganized or unwilling to create a coalition to seize those rewards are getting cut out due to the barriers to entry. Seems to be working as intended.


How is making content that is often done solo, or buy a single player multiboxing, inaccessible to anyone outside sov null a good thing? How is handing large null sec coalitions who already make billions of isk per day, a monopoly on high end minerals a good idea?

We are not talking about a slightly higher risk that freelance miners will just have to adapt to here. before Odyssey this risk was so high very few even attempted it, now the risk is exponentially higher.

Watching local is not a solution for this. In these situations there is always neuts in local. If you can not understand how any miner could mine in a system with unknowns in local, then how can you possibly understand the impact this change has on those miners.

Let me exoplain for the hundreth time how mining in unsecured sov, NPC null, or low sec worked before Odyssey. You woulgd scan down a grav site or two, generally not the static sites spawned by upgraded sov, usually the random ones, which were still very good in Null and Low. You would set up a POS in the system if you did not already have one, and what ever bookmarks you thought you would need. Once the mining op is set you need to determine if anyone in local is a threat. If they are they will warp to the site if they already have it bookmarked, or will scan for you right away. If nobody does, you are clear to get set up. this generally takes 10-15 minutes including the set up of a small POS. A small POS with stront is all you need, it is just a place to be safe, and drop ore, I usually use freight containers inside the POS that can be scooped up, or otherwise emptied later.

Once you are set up an mining you watch local for new traffic, and keep D-scan up on at least one account. If you see any kind of probe on D-scan warp to POS, If you see a new contact in Local pay extra attention to D-scan, spamming it to keep it fresh.

I do not know how others did it, but this worked for me. I would try to find low traffic systems, but low traffic in a system with good enough true sec to spawn good sites is not very common. What made this profitable, what made it work, was the fact that no more than 1 in every 10 null/low sec roamers have a probe launcher. Only those who did were a true threat. I rarely had to warp out, and had many many very successful mining ops. I lost a few ships here and there, but no worse than getting ganked in high sec.

With the changes of grav sites over to anomalies I go from only having to worry about roamers with probe launchers, and being warned about them by d-scan, to having every ship passing through the system able to warp to me, without any warning that they are coming. Yes there is local, but as I already said, several times, Where I mine there is always unknowns in local. Watching local does not work in these situations. Having to warp out every time someone is in local means not mining at all and going back to high sec. Local is near useless to me.

i have been told to adapt. I did adapt, I was one of the few who actually mined in systems that were actually dangerous. Most null sec miners are safer than high sec miners deep inside there coalitions territories. I adapted to this dangerous environment of mining in dangerous space, outside of protected sov. And now the tools I needed have been taken. Please tell me how I can adapt to this change. The only option I see is to join a large null sec alliance that can provide me safer space to mine in. I am not willing to do that. I am a freelance miner, I will not serve the oppressors. There really is no other option that will work.

Forcing players to join large alliances is not balanced development, it is not emergent content, it is restrictive. The reason I play EVE is for the open non restrictive game play. Now that gameplay is broken.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#46 - 2013-06-24 16:07:49 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Wow, I had no idea it was so bad. I guess I should dock up all my null miners that are constantly not exploding because I'm actually at my keyboard.

Try mining outside of your big blue SOV space. In Sov space controlled by smaller alliances, not surounded by waves of blue space, and NPC null , the safety net provided by grav sites was a necessity. Even with that safety net mining in those systems was a high enough risk that almost nobody did it. Now without it, it is impossible.

To the OP. I believe CCP knew exactly what they were doing. With the big nerf to moon goo income that went along with the elimination of Technetium as a bottle neck, they have given the large null sec power blocks a monopoly of the null sec ores, as they now can not be mined at an acceptable risk level out side secured SOV space.


if you mean to say that it's easier when you have 1000 friends than it is when you have no friends.... I agree.

If you mean to say that CCP would like to encourage people to work together, I agree.

If you're saying that you can't mine outside of sov space.... meh.

it's a matter of scale. Naturally a cyno can be put on anything so there's no 100% guarantees but if you have say .... 20 or 30 barges then that's up to 150 drones we're talking about. Tanked properly, FC'd worth a damn and with proper use of scouts logistics and anchored bubbles and most small gangs would welp on them.

So yeah.... mining has become a community activity and those who recognise that and can adjust to the new reality wil reap vast rewards of isk.

Quote:

Why do we need these huge numbers of ghost town systems? These systems could provide space for smaller entities to get into null.


And they do. Some time ago we used to do mining ops in "ghost town" areas. We'd find a nice empty back woods system, jump in a rorqual full of mining ships and gear, set up a small pos for protection and mine away for a few days until it was full....or until someone incapped the POS, which surprisingly didn't happen that often. We even lived in back end of Wicked creek..... C-L or whatever it was called .... in a POS for a couple of months and made a killing ratting in Freeman space (shows you how long ago it was). They eventually evicted us but it was a lot of fun at the time.

Then out we'd go and do it all over again. If what you're saying is true and 1/2 of nullsec is a ghost town then you should be able to find areas to do this in today as well. I wouldn't see why not. In fact, I bet there are places in Spire that only get one jump every 24 hours, if that.

Quote:

The bigger the sov power blocks are, the less borders there are, less boarders means les conflict, less conflict means less PVP.

Suggest you look at the killboards of the biggest nullsec alliances. Goonswarm (just to pick a random example of what you seem to hate) has made 21,000 kills in June and we're not even done yet. Other null sec alliances will probably have similar stats. I can appreciate that you think this argument is logical, but it isn't supported by the facts.

Quote:

For PVP to thrive, null sec should be full of many smaller groups that are free to attack each other generating casual PVP.

Your post seemed to digress pretty badly from sperging about not being able to find places to go mining to ending in a thesis about what PVP needs in order to thrive. I'm not sure what to do about how it ended, but I hope I gave you some ideas about how you can organise you mining differently so you don't have to worry so much about getting ganked.
Lenna Kaundur
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-06-24 16:47:00 UTC
I'll chip in my 2 ISK here...

If you are mining solo or in a small corp, then mining in low and/or null is a waste of your time. Seriously. You will never be able to get the efficiency in your mining ops you'll need to make it pay off. You'll always make more ISK/hr mining in high than you will in low, no matter the ore you're looking at.

Logistics is everything in mining. It's not about how much ore you can pull in. It's how much ore or minerals you can deliver to the market.

If you're a lone miner out in lowsec, just getting the ore into your hold is the most trivial part of the enterprise (and even that is hazardous). You have to worry about where to stage it . An in-system POS? You have to worry about the cost of the POS itself, as well as fuel costs. And if you want to take your ore/minerals to a market in hisec, that means a freighter, which is more expense. And since only a crazy person would run a freighter in lowsec or null without heavy escort, you either have to pony up for armed escort or forget the freighter and use blockade runners or deep-space transports instead...and since they carry only comparatively tiny cargos, they're all but worthless except for very high-end minerals.

Lowsec and null are full of big fat rocks with great minerals in them, but they might as well not be there at all for all the good they do for small mining concerns. Those ores simply cannot be harvested profitably.

Mining only makes sense in hisec or deep-blue nullsec, and even in nullsec the efficiency equation means it's cheaper just to bring a lot of stuff in from hisec with jump freighters.

I consider mining to be a broken mechanic, really. But CCP can't really "fix" it because it is so central to the game's economy. I think if we had a do-over it would be a better idea to make mining passive, like PI. (Or just roll mining into the PI mechanic itself.) Or put a mechanic in place around mining where skill level and not system security status determines the quality and composition of ore you can extract.

However I must say that I doubt any of this is going to happen, simply because mining is so central to EVE's economy. Busted or not, changing the mechanic in major ways could have large and potentially game-breaking effects.

So I guess the upshot is: if you're a solo or small-gang miner, stick to hisec. The ISK is decent and the risk is low. Lowsec is a complete waste of your time, and nullsec only makes sense if you're in a deep blue system.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#48 - 2013-06-24 17:39:46 UTC
Lenna Kaundur wrote:
I'll chip in my 2 ISK here...

If you are mining solo or in a small corp, then mining in low and/or null is a waste of your time. Seriously. You will never be able to get the efficiency in your mining ops you'll need to make it pay off. You'll always make more ISK/hr mining in high than you will in low, no matter the ore you're looking at.

Logistics is everything in mining. It's not about how much ore you can pull in. It's how much ore or minerals you can deliver to the market.

If you're a lone miner out in lowsec, just getting the ore into your hold is the most trivial part of the enterprise (and even that is hazardous). You have to worry about where to stage it . An in-system POS? You have to worry about the cost of the POS itself, as well as fuel costs. And if you want to take your ore/minerals to a market in hisec, that means a freighter, which is more expense. And since only a crazy person would run a freighter in lowsec or null without heavy escort, you either have to pony up for armed escort or forget the freighter and use blockade runners or deep-space transports instead...and since they carry only comparatively tiny cargos, they're all but worthless except for very high-end minerals.

Lowsec and null are full of big fat rocks with great minerals in them, but they might as well not be there at all for all the good they do for small mining concerns. Those ores simply cannot be harvested profitably.

Mining only makes sense in hisec or deep-blue nullsec, and even in nullsec the efficiency equation means it's cheaper just to bring a lot of stuff in from hisec with jump freighters.

However I must say that I doubt any of this is going to happen, simply because mining is so central to EVE's economy. Busted or not, changing the mechanic in major ways could have large and potentially game-breaking effects.


Well I guess that is why nobody does it. But I DID. I DID make loads of isk. Logistics? Thats what a jump freighter is for. At one time I had two of them. Solo? Well not a single HULK out mining, but me with all my alt accounts. Orca and a fleet of HULKS, run by a single player, This is my idea of a solo freelance miner.

I have read post after post of people telling me I am doing it wrong. No I will not join a large null sec alliance. I have been there and done that, being told what to do with my game time is not something I am willing to do. I am not anti social, I have los of friends in Game, most are avid PVPers, that laugh at me for mining. Doing it wrong? WTF is that. The whole basis of a sandbox MMO is that you can play however you want within the game rules. There is no doing it wrong, as long as you stick to the rules.

Lenna Kaundur wrote:
I consider mining to be a broken mechanic, really. But CCP can't really "fix" it because it is so central to the game's economy. I think if we had a do-over it would be a better idea to make mining passive, like PI. (Or just roll mining into the PI mechanic itself.) Or put a mechanic in place around mining where skill level and not system security status determines the quality and composition of ore you can extract.


Yes it would be better if content enjoyed by players other than yourself was completely removed from game. Just because you do not enjoy mining as a non passive activity does not mean other do not. Does that mean because I hate Sov alliances and coalitions that those mechanics should be removed. No, just because it is not my play style does not make it worthless content. Just as the content I enjoy is not worthless just because you do not enjoy it. Mining would be in a fine state if CCP would just stop nerfing the hell out of one aspect every time they buff another. Mining is and always will be one of the lowest isk/hr activities in game. That does not need to change. But being at the bottom is does not need nerfed. Had Odyssey gone live with everything except the removal of grav sites it would have been a great buff to mining and industry out side of high sec.

Lenna Kaundur wrote:
So I guess the upshot is: if you're a solo or small-gang miner, stick to hisec. The ISK is decent and the risk is low. Lowsec is a complete waste of your time, and nullsec only makes sense if you're in a deep blue system.


And this is not a problem? The fact that mining in low sec and NPC null has been near impossible has been an issue for years. Odyssey makes it even worse. I found a way to make mining in these systems work, and made far more isk doing it than I ever made in high sec. I am not asking for the game to be changed just to give me content that I want, What I am asking is that the content available to me before Odyssey not be taken away. removal of content is in now way a game improvement. And no matter how you look at it grav sites were content, and they are now gone. The new ore anomalies do not replace that content, they just lock players like myself out of it.

The point is, it was doable before Odyssey, now it is not.

The answer is not go back to high sec, but why were grav sites removed? What benefit did it have for the game other than catering to the null sec coalitions? Changing existing grav sites to ore anomalies does not change the fact the gravametric sites were removed from the game. removal of content, especially content that was not broken is completely unnecessary. There was NO reason to remove it. Sure some players that mine in deep blue sov space are unaffected by this change, but the fact that it has zero impact on them does not justify hurting the players that it does affect. If taking this content away actually benefited another part of the game there would at least be a reason for it, but it does not. For everyone affected it is either a nerf, or a non issue, no benefit, anywhere.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#49 - 2013-06-25 09:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Styth spiting wrote:
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:

Oh yes, 10-20 seconds extra time to react to a threat makes no difference at all. WTF have you been smoking. 5 seconds makes a difference. 10 seconds gives you a fighting chance. 20 seconds makes you safe, or at least safe enough to mine in a MAX yield HULK.

Small sov empires, NPC null, and low sec are affected by this even more than W-space dwellers.


I'm not referring to reaction time to a threat but the time it takes afk/idling miners to actually notice a neutral entering system. Yes obviously more time to react to a threat you know about is going to be better, but if a miner or someone in your fleet of miners hasn't noticed a threat in local in the first 10 seconds of them showing up, chances are they wouldn't have noticed in another 10 seconds. The gains that were made from the increases in ore far outweigh the minor loss in security that was gained from a few seconds of possible warning you may have had if you were paying attention. And there is no loss to security for those who are willing to deal with the occasional loss in cheap fitted barges.

Seeing someone in Local is not enough. Being AFK or not. Have you ever mined outside of protected sov space? It has nothing to do with being AFK. I have timed it, jumping into a system, waiting for the grav sites to pop up on scan, f there is one, and warping to it takes about 8-9 seconds. A HULK takes about 10 seconds to warp out. MACK and SKIFF are a little faster. That is a very small window. It is not like mining in static belts were they have to guess which one you are in, if there is only one ore site, any miners in system will likely be in it. Warp in cloaked and you can be within tackle range before decloaking. If you are traveling through nll sec looking for miners to gank, there is a good chance any HULKS or ORCA's will still be there when you reach the belt. even if they were watching local.

Then there is mining in NPC null or low sec, there was always someone in local when I mined there. But very rarely did any of them have a probe launcher, making it some what safe. It was still dangerous enough very few did it, but it was doable. Now it is not. If you were actually a miner you would know those extra 10-20 seconds it took them to scan you down are very important. if you think that your warping out every time you saw a neut in local is all you needed, you don't understand how it worked. Just because you did not watch D-scan for probes does not mean that scan time was not helping you. No matter how well you are watching local, even if you are aligned, with the changes a ganker can jump into system, and warp to the ore site, before a HULK, and certainly an ORCA can warp out. It always worked before because there need to scan you down gave you more time. Now the window is very tight.

Sure, watching local and intel channels is still sufficient when mining deep inside sov space, but read the thread title, this is about NPC null, low sec, and W-space. You do not even have local to watch in W-space. This change is game breaking to miners outside of secured sov space. If you are going to warp out every time a neut pops up in local in those area's you will not be doing much mining. Even if you make 3 times the isk/m3 that you get in high sec, you need to spend at least 20 minutes out of every hour actually mining, not setting up, hiding, or moving, actually mining just to break even. If I am going to spend 90% of my time hiding it is not worth it. I would make more staying in high sec. And that is the big issue. With grav sites that extra layer of safety is what made it work. It still did not work well, as almost nobody did it, but now it does not work at all.

I am not asking for the changes to be undone. Just give us back grav sites. Add in new ones rather than reverting the ore anomalies back. Give us hard to find grav sites that spawn randomly all over new eden. Large sites worth actually mining. leave the ore anomalies for upgraded sov since they are working so well for nullbear miners. just add new random spawning grav sites on top of the converted ore anomalies.

While we are adding grav sites, how about a whole new chain of signature sites for all exploration branches, Sites that are much harder to find/scan down then what we currently have. Some thing to give veteran explorers a challenge to find. With the changes to exploration brought with odyssey any noob can now find any site with a few hour training and some basic equipment. Those of us with maxed scan skills and faction equipment no longer have any high skilled content. it has ALL BEEN KNOCKED DOWN TO ENTRY LEVEL. I do not want to see the entry level access to this content changed, I think it was a good move, But give us some high level exploration content as a goal for those noob explorers to work towards, and us veteran explores something to do. Having it all at entry level with nothing harder to reach for makes no sense to me. It really bothers me that after train months to get near maxed scanning skills, I can not find anything that a 2 week old noob can not find. being able to find it slightly faster was not worth the training time.


This makes total sense CCP please do this!

And I have to say that you sir are the type of player I really respect.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Sasha Rama
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-06-25 18:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sasha Rama
We should petition to have this reversed or at the very least, have them turned back into scannable gravimetric sites, which would be too easy for CCP to do. They would still show up as a cosmic anom, but be indistinguishable from any other sites.

How effective would it be to start gathering people to mass petition to have this damage reversed and how many petitions would we need in order to change their minds?

How can they be that short sighted that they do not see what they've done is bad for everyone except Big Sov?

Why was this done in the first place?
Sharah Ongrard
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-06-26 15:22:42 UTC
I am monitoring this thread. It is relevant to my interests.
Hae Sung
#52 - 2013-06-26 16:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hae Sung
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
How is making content that is often done solo, or buy a single player multiboxing, inaccessible to anyone outside sov null a good thing? How is handing large null sec coalitions who already make billions of isk per day, a monopoly on high end minerals a good idea?


Because it rewards groups of players coming togetther and cooperating on a macro level. As other players have already pointed out - you can choose to mine in less populated areas of nullsec. You can also choose to mine in NRDS space utilizing the same tactics to maintain safety that you have always used.

Quote:
We are not talking about a slightly higher risk that freelance miners will just have to adapt to here. before Odyssey this risk was so high very few even attempted it, now the risk is exponentially higher.


As an industrial character in a game which promotes violence who eschews the safety awarded for cooperative gameplay and spurns the safety offered in hisec for those players who have traditionally embraced your playstyle (solo mining), you seem to make curious choices.

Yes the risk calculus has changed as a result of a change to the scanning mechanics. Yes this is harmful to your game play. As a fellow miner who also runs a similar operation(mutliple accounts with orca/freighter support) this is also harmful to me as well.

It will require adaptation, and likely team play with a larger entity.

If you think that as a freelancer you should have decent footing in lawless space without protection afforded through strength then I think we have identified the problem. This will likely stop your mining like you have mined before, but I again don't view this as necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:
Let me explain for the hundreth time.... // i have been told to adapt. I did adapt, I was one of the few who actually mined in systems that were actually dangerous.


Let me stop you here. Its not that people don't understand how it worked. Its that we don't mourn the loss of the mechanic the same way you do. I don't need to be explained why you're upset again.

And kudos to you for this - as you said this is not exactly a common practice and pulling it off was admirable.

Quote:
And now the tools I needed have been taken. Please tell me how I can adapt to this change. The only option I see is to join a large null sec alliance that can provide me safer space to mine in. I am not willing to do that. I am a freelance miner, I will not serve the oppressors. There really is no other option that will work.


Relevant parts underlined.

You could also bring your own protection with your mining fleet. The real obstacle to your safety is the offensive power of other players. The security that you are spurning is something you could provide yourself, at a loss of efficiency of course.

The changes to mechanics are in, the unprotected ore vessels that we know and love need protection. If you are unwilling to provide it yourself, or find groups that will provide it for you, then you have made your choice.

Quote:
Forcing players to join large alliances is not balanced development, it is not emergent content, it is restrictive.


It is not the developers who are forcing you to join larger organizations, it is the players themselves. The content created, the restrictions imposed, the benefits reaped are all a result of the players and their actions. Deal with those players, influence their actions, and you might be able to reap better rewards.

No mechanic is stopping you from doing this action, the players themselves are stopping you.
Kick Rocks
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-06-26 16:53:07 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Lots of stuff, seemingly angry.


Sir,

Are you aware that they are 90% unlikely to revert this change back because you do not like it? I was just wondering because I can't seem to understand what it is you and the OP are trying to accomplish here. If you want advice it seems like there is a ton of it here, none of which you are willing to take. You appear to want things to go back to how they were and anyone who suggests otherwise can just GTFO this thread. However change has come, and complaining about it will not help.

I will add that this change has no major affect on my playstyle. However when they do make changes I hate I find something better to do or barring that, quit for a year and see if they bring in anything I wish to try. I don't think they miss a single player or anything as I am not that naive, but it saves me from paying for a game I am no longer enjoying and I don't have to get angry or frustrated.

Oh yes, this is an alt.

v/r
Kick

Yes, I am an alt.  No, I do not care how you feel about that.  

Number One Everything
D'Anconia Commerce
#54 - 2013-06-27 05:08:34 UTC
Having recently setup a POS pre-Odyssey to mine in WH space, along with 2 accounts to clear sites faster, I am seriously reconsidering my original ideas. The largest WH grav sites were worth 3.9B ISK for the Rarified Core sites (largest one) fully cleared. With the mineral prices dropping so drastically, the current value is 2.7B. Add in the extra hazards of mining post-Odyssey, and its hard to say its worth doing anymore. I understand and always closed holes before mining, but the fact is, when a new hole opens in system, the scanner does not update real time. From testing, it seems that it updates once per minute at best, and typically, it doesn't update at all unless you spam "Show anomalies." So at worst, that's a full 60 seconds for a fleet to warp in before you have any indication at all there's a new hole.

Previously, I spammed d-scan, and when a probe popped up, I knew it was time to leave. I used to hit dscan every 3 seconds, and docked up if I needed to afk for more than 10 seconds. I never lost a ship pre-Odyssey.

Post Odyssey, a fleet of 9 had time to open a wormhole, find the grav site I was mining at, and get a fleet of 8 people in system before I happened to hit "show anomalies" and realized a new hole opened up. I got my mining ships out of harm's way, but the mining buddy with me and his orca got tackled and killed.

If dscan was around, this was a flop that would have easily been prevented. It was due to failed game mechanics (new anomalies/wormholes not updating) that he lost his ship. This should be fixed by returning ore sites to scanned down only. Alert miners will still get out in time, and AFK miners won't notice the probes and deserve to be killed.
Sasha Rama
Doomheim
#55 - 2013-06-27 14:41:07 UTC
It is very apparent that, this year alone, the CSM and CCP are hell bent and have gone out of their way to not just take industry down a peg, but take it down period. And they should be warned that if they continue on with their extreme predjudice against industry and freelancing, that it will ultimately be their undoing. Second decade? It's going to be a short one.


They killed off ice fields and replaced them with easily depletable ice nuggets that destroyed AFK mining, which they made perfectly clear last year that they were more then fine with.



They turned ore mining in high sec into a farce by destroying gravimetric sites and allowing everyone to just warp to them, which hurt exploration, the safety of miners, and it was all an effort to water down the price of minerals to the point they are now, getting more worthless by the day so that those of us, freelancers, who are capable of turning a decent profit, abandon mining and leave our 'evil' multiboxing ways behind, which will not happen. You will destroy your own server first.



Allowing pirates and gankers to freely warp to any ore site in null/low/wormhole space, that isen't heavily defended by large corperations, alliances, and anyone else who absolutely NEEDS multiple ships to guard their ops. Claim the riches of Ody, indeed.

Mining logistics and the benefits thereof have been toned down so much that even your largest indy workers are beginning to question the validity of it and what your doing to your own investment.



You obviously, and without any admission, have given large corperations monopolies over ore in the vastest treks of space, making them richer and more powerful then they already are, and securing the spoils in their territories only for their purposes....to destroy the price of minerals, thinking with your infant minds, that it will drive people out further into the game. Your logic isen't logic, its idiocracy.



And of course, lets not forget about PLEX, which is not a seeded item and that CCP gets their money regardless of rather a multiboxer buys it. Your greed will kill this game, you will make the classic mistake that all fools do, its never enough.



Your going to pay the price in subcriptions, which i'm sure most of you friendless, overpaid, neckbeards don't care about because you aren't worried about destroying something hundreds of thousands of people have worked (harder then you) over the last decade to preserve.



You will pay for what your doing if you do not stop ******* with this game.



Kick Rocks
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2013-06-27 16:10:03 UTC
Sasha Rama wrote:
Calls CCP a bunch of derogatory names and then expects them to listen...


Sir,

Good Job.

v/r
Kick

Yes, I am an alt.  No, I do not care how you feel about that.  

Zifrian
FAYN Industries
Dark Side of the Eclipse
#57 - 2013-06-27 16:27:51 UTC
Kick Rocks wrote:
Sasha Rama wrote:
Calls CCP a bunch of derogatory names and then expects them to listen...


Sir,

Good Job.

v/r
Kick

In a forum that is not created for feedback no less.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Ryuce
#58 - 2013-06-27 18:35:11 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Kick Rocks wrote:
Sasha Rama wrote:
Calls CCP a bunch of derogatory names and then expects them to listen...


Sir,

Good Job.

v/r
Kick

In a forum that is not created for feedback no less.

In a thread with a misleading title as he apparently isn't refering to most of the 0.0 miners.
RRNL
Perkone
#59 - 2013-07-01 14:59:04 UTC
you have bubbles for this, learn how to use them...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#60 - 2013-07-01 20:10:38 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Wow, I had no idea it was so bad. I guess I should dock up all my null miners that are constantly not exploding because I'm actually at my keyboard.


It's a bit different in WH. You have Local in null.


But in a WH you can close all the WH's and not activate your static... Then you only need to watch scan for a new sig and you'll be fine...

So, what is the issue?