Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It would be interesting to see what some dynamic like this one would do. When some corps are declaring war against dozens of targets (as many as 100 in my alt's experience, the whole idea of war decs still seems broken as they presently happen.

We use do get war decs that we could fight. Those were sometimes a lot of fun. Now we get war decs with corps who mostly hang out on trade routes and market hubs. The war dec is all about farming kill mails and not much else.

True say. And really, who cares about those kill mails? Unless you've killed something big, or gained decent riches from your VAST collection of kill mails, or gained something truly useful, it's just an e-peen tool.

Yeah yeah, some people actually have fun killing others mercilessly, preying on the weak and everything. Well if you wanna do that, you gotta pay for it accordingly. Right now, it's so cheap, it's almost GIVEN to you. It's too easy. There's really nothing to show off with those kills if they're newbies or industrial ships. Good fight my butt.

All those who are arguing that the wardec system should remain unchanged are hypocritical in the extreme.

They're like the playground bully at school, who gets caught picking on the smallest, weakest glasses-wearing-nerd 4 grades below him, then tries to "explain" his behaviour with "if he didn't want to get beat up, he shoulda just given me his lunch money", or "if he didn't want to get beat up, he shoulda fought back". I call BS.

The arguments I've seen so far:


Yes. Yes it is. But Eve is a sandbox.... it's commonly said that "everybody plays their own Eve". Why should this be the only non-pewpew solution? Oh right... 'cause then you might actually have to work for your kills. Boo-hoo for you.

I'm pretty sure that, if CCP ever turned Eve into a themepark MMO, with PvP limited to designated arenas (and those who chose to enter them), Eve would be dead within months. The players would be justifiably annoyed with CCP for trying to dictate their gameplay style, and if CCP doesn't get to dictate how players play, then a small group of players certainly don't get to dictate how other people play.


And how would this be different from any other day...

More to the point, though, why is it OK that "pirate"-corp-with-loads-of-cash can wardec everybody, but rich-indies can't just outbid pirates? Oh yeah... 'cause then you can't whore on expensive KM's. Boo-hoo. Rubbish... if having enough ISK let's corps declare as many wars as they want, then having enough ISK should let you undeclare them. Since when is PvP purely about pewpew? Been to Jita lately?

Ultimately, they still can't buy their way out of non-consensual PvP. They can just ensure that any non-consensual PvP that comes their way continues to carry the appropriate consequences. You can continue to suicide gank them to your heart's content. And with the tags-for-sec initiative, you can spend ISK to keep suicide ganking them for as long as you like.

Oh wait... you don't want that, do you... it's not about the "non-consensual PvP", is it... it's about whoring KM's on those that can't fight back without having to worry about Concord intervention. Doh... how could I possibly have missed that,.


Yes, yes they are. But you know what... what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you can unilaterally declare war by paying Concord, why shouldn't the defender have the option to unilaterally undeclare it. Oh yeah.... because you're a special-snowflake, and stuff is only allowed if it works in your favour only.


Let's see now... perhaps because they're drastically outmatched in terms of player skill, SP's and ships, and because most (but admittedly not all) :elitepvp: wardeccers will run for cover and dock up the second anything that might put them at risk appears. Under the current mechanics, in most (but again, not all) cases there's very little reason or opportunity to fight back. You're forced into playing Eve somebody else's way, for as long as they choose with no option to avoid it. As noted above, if CCP can't do it, players can't either.


Agreed... but no matter what else happens, suicide ganking is still an option. It's even more of an option now that CCP's implement the tags-for-sec thing. PvP in Eve is about more than just pewpew, so there is no reason for pewpew to be the only solution to wardecs. It should BE a solution, just not the only one.

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Out of interest, I (not at all) randomly selected Vimsy Vortis's killboard for a quick look. A veritable smorgasbord of shame and cowardice assailed me.

Mission runner followed miner, followed mission runner, followed miner, followed pod, followed mission runner. On the first couple of pages, something like 50 kills, I counted only something like 10 PvP fits.... and even those looked like outright ganks (5+ T3's vs one T1 cruiser for example).

This is not a person out for PvP, let alone gf's. This is outright gankage on people without the possibility of fighting back. Schoolyard bullying at it's worst. And it's all thanks to the currently broken wardec system that actively stacks all the advantages to the attacker, and leaves the (usually carefully picked to offer no threat) defender with very little real chance of fighting back.

With this type of KM-whorage and stat-e'peening, is there any doubt why the current system is being so stridently defended?

Probably one of the better solutions I have seen thus far.

I agree that a change is needed and would like to point out that those arguing "just fight back!" are conveniently ignoring one of the most common reasons why said corporation(s) can't do so: Security Status. Larger (lowsec) alliances typically break down their internal activities into separate corporations. These are often prime targets for wardec corps as they know that players from that alliance traveling into highsec will primarily be new/PvE players.

Using Brave Newbies as an example, incoming players are actively warned NOT to accept their application invite until they've finished relocating to HQ. The reason being that we are constantly wardec'd by highsec pirates and can't do much to combat them as those members capable of fighting back typically can't enter highsec. We're busy fighting real PvP gangs in lowsec while our newer (less informed) recruits and carebears are hunted down. We'd LOVE to come fight this war you declared on us, but you're using security status as a shield to prevent us from doing so.

This kind of activity has reached a point where smarter alliances/corps preempt this behavior by using dummy corps to accept contracts for alts in NPC corps to fulfill. Highsec "pirates" wardec the corp but find nothing to kill as nobody in the target corp ever undocks. That highsec pirates would complain about dummy corps or corp jumpers is ridiculous given that they are simply using loopholes to avoid the loophole you're using to attack them. At the end of the day, highsec pirates can already steal wrecks, cans, anomalies, combat sites, mission, etc. to instigate a laughably lopsided PvP encounter (I once scanned down a salvage ninja only to warp in on 2 orcas and 10 logi rep'ing through timers). You don't need a method for completely ignoring player protection to profit from pirating in highsec.

When I see the vast majority of your kills taking place in or around 1.0 space, I don't consider you a pirate. You're yet another carebear hiding in highsec.

Wardecs are already way more expensive than they were. Paying more than the aggressor to cancel wars... ISK shouldn't be the endgame. Not for indefinite periods of time.

Carebears are safe enough as it is with the NPC corps.

They don't need extra safety.

Should something like this be implemented we need a counter system where mercs benefit from this.

Point is that not all carebears want to just run and hide. This culture that has developed where the only options are "not play" or "die trying" if you try to keep your corp in existence is a problem. The aggressors have game supported mechanics to force their kind of fighting on the industrials and the reverse should be true.

In the end it does boil down to Isk. Ships destroyed, profit lost to disrupted activities, clones replaced... It's all Isk. This suggestion is simply trying to put a little of that risk back on the aggressor.

The PvP offered to industrial specialized characters is extremely one sided, boring, and about as fun as having your junk kicked daily for someone else's amusement. The contest moves away from playing the game to just ruining the industrial players game experience, and the only way for them to win is literally to simply not play.

If Wardecs vanished this afternoon as a mechanic, HIgh Sec would still not be a safe zone. Your resistance to this idea makes no sense. Giving Industrial specced players a way to fight against a wardec using their skillset without just abandoning their corp and going back into an NPC one helps you. Basically you are against it because if they were allowed to fight back in this manner you would lose.

We hear over and over how no action in EVE is free from PvP, from market trading, mining and missioning to low sec piracy and null sec Sov games. War Decs allow combat oriented players to force their kind of PvP on those that engage in other ways, and all that is being asked is for a way for them to engage combat pilots in a similar way. Non-Consent should work both ways. The current battlefield is laugably tilted in favor of pirates and gankers. It should be when the combat involves pew-pew. However, that isn't the only kind of PvP in EVE.

If combat oriented pilots can use their ISK to influence the battlefield and make things easier for them to do what they do, then pilots specialized in other aspects of EVE should be allowed to use their ISK to do the same.

Find a way to prevent the attacker to dock up when the defender come to take revenge and the problem is solved. Most small high sec "pirates" just dock up when there is any real treat around. I bet they would be less likely to declare war if they knew they could not hide when things go sour.

lowsec pirates not being able to fight their wars in highsec isn't the fault of wardecs, it's the fault of the idiotic faction police mechanic