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Black Ops choices
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Ryuce
#21 - 2013-06-27 15:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryuce
BLOPS are terrible please buff them quickly!

Also, if you people even bothered to check KB's from time to time you would notice BLOPS gangs taking down carriers etc. especially after the recent buff to jump range.

The ships are not in any way OP, but as Dewa and Gradma mentioned certain groups have/are using them with decent/great effect.

On a side note; for obivious reasons they are especially supperior to bombers in low sec.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#22 - 2013-06-27 15:42:57 UTC
Thank you all for the replies and information.

Considering how much I have learned in this thread that I did *not* know about BlOps, my best option might be to train a different character for that role.

For a while now my concern about BlOps was how well they fared in battle, because I didn't understand how the bridging works.

I've heard more negative over the years about BlOps than I have positive stuff, it's nice to know that people can use them as more than just a bridge (now that I understand how *that* works).

I'll have to look at ships again, I think. Considering some of the info, and my personal lack of PvP skill, it might be better for me to wait and see if CCP does a decent rebalance on them that sparks my interest. It's 100 days of training (ship and bridge) that might be better put to use elsewhere right now.

Thanks again.

Profit favors the prepared
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#23 - 2013-06-27 20:44:50 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:

I've heard more negative over the years about BlOps than I have positive stuff, it's nice to know that people can use them as more than just a bridge (now that I understand how *that* works).


People that don't understand them are vocal and crying on the forums, people that do understand them are busier ganking those who don't...
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-06-27 21:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Evei Shard wrote:
The character I'm looking to train is skilled with both missiles and drones, so, as a matter of using skills that I already have, I have been strongly considering either the Widow or the Sin.

That is where I am somewhat stuck, however. The bonuses for the ships differ quite a bit, and I'm not unwilling to look at a Panther or Redeemer. The barrier is that it's a 30+ day commitment to train one or the other.

What are the pro's and con's of the different ships in regards to game mechanics?
(for example: one disadvantage I do know of with the Sin, is that the Drone UI sucks)
What is currently the most popular choice for this role?
Is there any reason to fit the ship with long range weapons (i.e. rails vs. blasters, etc.)?



Sin: shield fit it with Electrons full lows of drone dmg mods = 1K DPS with Ogres, 850 Drones only.

Widow: no matter how much you'll try, if you're not used to pvp in BS's solo, micro management in between tank/boosters/switch targets and also managing the ability to gtfo or jump out, it's a very hard ship to fly and do something with.
It can succeed, you'll always find solo or gangs of disorganized people and you'll kill them but a single tandem of ships knowing what they're doing and your 1B ship goes boum.

+ if you intend to bridge stuff more than you put it on the line to dps Sin has a huge advantage of low slots, more cargo expander = more fuel = more jumps = more dudes bridged.

Yes SIn design stinks, Jesus Christ stinks so hard I can smell ti from here but welp, has some advantages over WIdow undoubtedly.

Just an opinion.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-06-27 22:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Dewa Pedang wrote:

My good man , id like to make you a offer you cant refuse , please keep using your pretty pretty bombers killing that random cane that roamed around your region last week and leave the Black Ops Battleships to the big boys .
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18026729
Thats just one example to lazy to look up more .

As it stands all blops are fun to play with but they do require you to have friends if you want to " fight " in em and not just gank random target . Redeemer has the best dmg application , sin is nice for neuting , panther has 1 neut slot , widow can jam . Also might want to fit RR if your gona be using more then 1 in your fleet


If you need 11 Battleships+1 T3 and not the worst of them, to kill 5 ships + 1 rookie ship to prove how good you are with blops, I'm sorry but this is far from being impressive by all means.

You add 1k + 1 k + 1K and so on a 5YO kid can understand that and the final result. That just a drop, about 14K dps drop on top of barely 4.5k the result seems pretty obvious.

Notice I'm not saying you're doing it wrong, no way, you're doing it right and not taking on much higher possible fight back targets, but by no means this proves how bad or good widow sun panther or redeemer are.

Redeemer has indeed a lot of things going for it, after drones changes Sin became a rather ganky ship you DON'T want to have on top of you, Panther can be devastating against larger targets and widow can spew faction cruise at 220km while jamming the crap out of targets.

But: what's the point of adding a 1B ship on the field to do the same job a falcon does but worst just because it spews 400+missiles+drones dps with 350M explosion radius?
Unless the specific tactic of several cover cynos all around the place, even then a single counter drop and a good Heavy dictor and your 11 funky 1B+ paper tank BS's will make someone's KB happy.

This works, of course it works but you should also say to that guy how much you might spend watching your screen waiting the jump order because you will not jump that blind as it looks on that KM over 5 ships, is it really worth or not up to you to decide, your 5ships kill is perfectly achievable with 10 bombers and 1 flcon for less of the price of a single of your Blops drop on the field, but this is just my point of view.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Ryuce
#26 - 2013-06-28 13:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryuce
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
snip

The fact still stands that the BLOPS increase the amount of dps, survivability and utility (neuts) per player.

Furthermore, nobody has to take into account all the scrubs making different kinds of errors which increases the bridge consumption, are afk when the gang should be leaving and what not.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-06-28 14:54:22 UTC
Ryuce wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
snip

The fact still stands that the BLOPS increase the amount of dps, survivability and utility (neuts) per player.

Furthermore, nobody has to take into account all the scrubs making different kinds of errors which increases the bridge consumption, are afk when the gang should be leaving and what not.


Indeed, but it's rather a risky choice dudes should only do if they're in an experienced gang used to do this frequently and have a good number of covert cyno alts spread all over the place. It's not the kind of thing you do or advice doing it like simply undock an autos cane and engage the first thing at the gate.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Noisrevbus
#28 - 2013-06-29 04:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Noisrevbus
Some additional thoughts ...

The Widow
The biggest upside of the Widow is (as someone else already noted) that it can provide a Covert-gang with ECM (on a long-range in-cyno). Covert gangs are still highly limited by mass when bridging and squeezing multiple Recons through a cov-cyno is a logistical nightmare. In short, Falcons will take alot of fuel to port around and are in lower priority than Rapiers and Arazus (who tackle): the Widow can provide alternative ECM (being the second-line ship that cut his forward tacklers free in need of quick extraction).

The Sin
Apart from the ability to land quick RR on the cyno-ship while still maintaining good damage output from the drones, the Sin is also very capable on LR-cynos since the changes to drone-modules. The Sin put out a respectable amount of damage from afar, when other Blops have to compromise. At closer ranges the Redeemer is king of reliable damage, but beyond 60km or so the Sin have a very good damage output to highslot (-bridge etc.) utility. All in all, it makes the Sin a good support-platform in SR-drops and an underestimated damage-platform in LR-drops.

The Panther
The obvious appeal of high alpha in a hit-run environment aside, the Panther also have the best mobility. Once again, the appeal of this hull primarily go with LR-drops (which are uncommon, yet I would say potentially more powerful). You basicly play the ship like a bridgy MacHac, where you drop in at distance where the Panther is the Blops that excel at maintaining range and staying on grid to kite around and apply damage (mobility for staying-power against odds).

The Redeemer
Is the undisputed king of short range drops. That is why it's also so popular since the most simplistic drop is just to cyno in on a single, onbonused tackler (eg., a Bomber with point-scram; or a tanky tackler like a Proteus that use it's bonused tackle range to extend-out rather than reach-in so it's usually an SR-fight anyway). The Redeemer has the best reliable damage within standard tackle-ranges and perhaps the best slot allocation and fitting options - allowing it to combine a full set of Pulse with a decent tank and midslot utility for cap and additional tackle. It's the bread and butter without any fancy quirks. It's the most popular way to fly Blops - at the same time the one I would say realize least of the ship class' and tactical concept's potential.
RRNL
Perkone
#29 - 2013-07-02 22:15:10 UTC
Redeemer - Feet gank - Prim Lasors - Not good solo
Panther - Fleet gank / solo gank - Prim auto's - decent solo medium gank / fleet less good due lesser hp than redeemer
Widow - Fleet support - prim jamms - good support / bad damage
Sin - Solo boat - prim drones + blast/ Heavy Dpds neut combo - Good soloboat / fightcommitment!
Hemmo Paskiainen
#30 - 2013-07-02 22:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Hemmo Paskiainen
You can get 1600dps with 3 heavy neuts and 124k EHP out of a Sin that solo hotdrops like a charm... The fit will be woth more than 2 carriers to kinda compatable to cost vs capability and your always fightcomitted.

The best use i ever had from a panther was to go smartbombing with it...

"The race-flavour depends of the user's pew pew-taste"

If relativity equals time plus momentum, what equals relativity, if the momentum is minus to the time?
Darling Hassasin
Parental Control
Didn't want that Sov anyway.
#31 - 2013-07-03 06:29:48 UTC

Have them trained on 2 chars since a couple of months from being released on TQ (or sooner). I have yet to board one. If you have the ability to use enough bombers or easy access to flying mushrooms (well there is a more apt description but dunno about propriety and all) that can bridge real men in... well its hard to justify using them if you are worried about winning the isk war (not for the actual iskies -they are depreciating faster than dollars- but for the HONOUR).

Then again I am of that type of mindset where I cherish more my Taranis v Brutix solo kills than my capital kill participations... so ... I guess its amatter of taste.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-07-03 10:24:11 UTC
Anyway Op, having a blops character is always awesome. It opens new options and gaming abilities you couldn't realize before you have it.

They all can succeed more or less good, some rather bad than good in the hands of the average player and completely terrible if you are not used with.
Widow atm offers some good points but DPS it's certainly not the best of it, looks awesome, and think about CCP's intention to revamp this class and give them some love Soon ™

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#33 - 2013-07-03 17:57:28 UTC
There is truly only two useful black ops.

The first, is the Panther.

[Panther, New Setup 1]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Internal Force Field Array I
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Co-Processor II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
Imperial Navy Heavy Energy Neutralizer
Improved Cloaking Device II
[empty high slot]

Large Projectile Ambit Extension II
Large Polycarbon Engine Housing II


Warrior II x5


510 DPS out to 30K with RF EMP. Goes 2k/s unheated, and has a 730 DPS tank with your XLASB. idea is to kite outside 24K and then kill all of the things. Use your 30K heavy neut to get light tackle / fast cruisers out of your way- and nano to victory. That empty high slot is really open to what your doing. have a lot of blops, but not many support ships- throw a cyno in there. have many support ships, throw the bridge. Pick an choose.

My other favorite blops hull is the Sin.

[Sin, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Reactor Control Unit II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 25
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

Improved Cloaking Device II
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty high slot]

Large Ancillary Current Router I
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II


Valkyrie II x5

While not as fast as the panther, Its agility is astounding. 5.7 seconds with MWD on, and 4.2 with it off. Your basically flying a fast align cruiser with this boat. Again empty high slot is for bridge / cyno. With valks your getting 290 DPS, which isn't bad considering your only role is to really neut out anything hostile on field. This setup also works great for those pesky super tanked anom runners. This shuts them down quite nicely.

My thoughts on the other two:

Widow:

It brings nothing to the table. DPS is really never the true job the blops. So I discount that. I also discount its jams. While the widow (properly fit) fields the same amount of jamming strength as 2 falcons, normally falcons are flying with you- so its pretty redundant. The widow fails in a small blop's gang because it is slow as can be, and it damage very poorly. At the end of the day, when you are looking for jams just bring a falcon. It has a faster lock time, its cheaper, faster and it gets the job done.

Redeemer:

Its too slow, to nano effectively post drop. While it has OK dps that is all the redeemer brings to the table. The second more hostiles arrive you have to run. While ships like the sin and panther can stay on field and keep on fighting. If you need dps bring bombers.
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-07-03 20:24:45 UTC
I just fitted my Redeemer .
Holy crap that ship is hard to fit when you have a coak, jump portal generator and a MJD.
vyshnegradsky
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#35 - 2013-07-03 23:07:20 UTC
Shereza wrote:
Strictly from a PvE perspective all four ships are pretty decent combat wise.....


You're a horrible person for saying this

This one's a bit over the edge guys.

Locked for breaking... well, pretty much all the rules.

  • CCP Falcon
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#36 - 2013-07-04 10:18:29 UTC
Almost all of you are totally forgetting two things.

Smartbombs.

Micro jumpdrives.

Also, a rail Sin is a WTFBBQPWNmobile. 1300 deeps, honkies.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-07-06 00:07:31 UTC
vyshnegradsky wrote:
Shereza wrote:
Strictly from a PvE perspective all four ships are pretty decent combat wise.....


You're a horrible person for saying this


I'm a horrible person for viewing ships most people consider predominantly or entirely PvP focused from PvE perspectives? Why thank you! Twisted
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#38 - 2013-07-11 04:09:04 UTC
Caius Sivaris wrote:
Marcus Gideon wrote:

You send a real CovOp ship ahead, who lights a CovCyno. Then you Bridge across so your hoard of CovOp ships can rush in. Theoretically, you could Jump in yourself, cloak in place, and wait to give the fleet a ride home.


Did you even ever board a black ops? Not even talking of using it in anger...

The idea of cloaking in place after jumping, in the middle of a swarm of drones, is hilarious. Me? I just shoot and neut the primary while aligning and making range. And I never missed the covops cloak, because being out of system before the fight is a lot more stealthy than being able to warp cloaked...

I'm not sure where all this is coming from?

I was specifically talking about someone lighting a CovCyno in a deep safe someplace, for you to sneak a fleet in.

If the Black Ops wants to go to the deep safe as well, and wait to give the fleet a ride home, he can cloak in place.

I wasn't talking about hot dropping. If you want to hot drop, why not use a real Cyno, and bring in real ships? That seems to be how the big boys do it.
Evangelina Nolen
Sama Guild
#39 - 2013-07-11 05:45:34 UTC
Pvp wise; use it only for bridging.
PVE exploration site ninja: double SIN > the rest
Mr Morita
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2013-07-11 13:27:26 UTC
The point is while the BLOPS might be a little bit weaker and put out a little less DPS for their hefty price tag; they are much cheaper than buying a titan and doing the logistics of titan POSes and having to keep the titan fuelled among other things. They are battleships with a jump drive and bridging capabilities and it's something you can actually have on field that will project DPS & support compared to a titan.

So, they're not really all that bad.
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