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Should remove PLEX as a form of payment... pull the free to play

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Franco Stein
Doomheim
#261 - 2013-06-28 13:15:03 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.

Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums.



Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX.

Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!

You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not!
Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.

PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#262 - 2013-06-28 13:19:03 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.



So using PLEX is ok for you but a cheat for everyone else?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#263 - 2013-06-28 13:26:32 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.

Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums.



Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX.

Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!

You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not!
Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.

PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.



PLEX only formalised the GTC trade that has existed in EVE with CCP's explicit permission and support since at least 2004. It has been a part of the game basically since the beginning.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#264 - 2013-06-28 13:27:21 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.

Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums.



Well, I think you are wrong.... as the game grew well prior to PLEX.

Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!

You may like it, but the VAST majority of gamers do not!
Out of the 500k subs that exist I would guess that there is only less than half of that of real people, perhaps even much less... I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.

PVP doesn't exist like in most ALL other games, so the gamers who "don't want to grind" just to play with other players find other games to play that a more entertaining and don't require that type of grind.... you can say EVE isn't other games... agreed.!!! Yet, the harshness of that cost keeps the game from ever growing to any real numbers.




people don't like how long it takes to skill up in eve, no one wants to spend years to get into that role which enticed them to try eve, all of my wow friends won't play eve because of how long it takes to skill up, and also because they're ******* ********.

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#265 - 2013-06-28 13:48:03 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!


More have played WoW than are currently playing. If Blizzard retained all they lost since WotLK, they would have well over 50 million subscriptions (my sub #s from years ago show over 50,000,000).

It's why Blizzard is on this constant TBC remake cycle thinking vets will return for it (didn't work for Cata, isn't going to work for the next expansion...but Blizzard doesn't listen that the new players don't have Warcraft experience to be hooked), which ensures even more players leave, as these older MMOs aren't ported to consoles which the newer gamers use by default, to replace them.

This is why WoW's subs are slowly getting lower. Nothing on the market itself is snatching those players, it's simple burnout and not enough new players (all they're saying now is the game is old, or take a vacation and come back).

What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#266 - 2013-06-28 13:54:19 UTC
Yes, CCP should abandon their secure market niche, throw their exisiting playerbase under as bus and join the long line of MMO publishers who have struck rich by trying to copy Wow, such as and of course and let's not forget

After all, what company with 10% YoY growth wouldn't hasten to trash their business plan to try and start copying a model which is losing 20% a year.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#267 - 2013-06-28 13:57:45 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.



So using PLEX is ok for you but a cheat for everyone else?




Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?

That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.

I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible!

1) I don't need to Pay anymore because I am amazing and entrenched.
2) Friends won't play because PVP is too harsh and they get no reward for their hour or two of play time.

PLEX on the flip side has killed the game..... and turned it in to Entropia for many many players.
The reason this game will never be more than the very vocal limited player base... is due to PLEX.

This isn't a JOB folks..... it's a game and even though it has a GREAT potential to be amazing, it sucks due to the very high cost of PVP..... some of you think that's great if you have the RL cash or you're a full timer who has tons of ISK.. but to the rest of the world... it's just stupid.

If you spend more than an hour or two playing this game a day... you are addicted and should quit for two full weeks.

PS.. Forum PVP is way more fun than in game PVP..
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#268 - 2013-06-28 14:04:46 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE.


That's like saying that The Ritz is hurting because it doesn't serve big macs.
Ecks Khan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#269 - 2013-06-28 14:06:53 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!


More have played WoW than are currently playing. If Blizzard retained all they lost since WotLK, they would have well over 50 million subscriptions (my sub #s from years ago show over 50,000,000).

It's why Blizzard is on this constant TBC remake cycle thinking vets will return for it (didn't work for Cata, isn't going to work for the next expansion...but Blizzard doesn't listen that the new players don't have Warcraft experience to be hooked), which ensures even more players leave, as these older MMOs aren't ported to consoles which the newer gamers use by default, to replace them.

This is why WoW's subs are slowly getting lower. Nothing on the market itself is snatching those players, it's simple burnout and not enough new players (all they're saying now is the game is old, or take a vacation and come back).

What hurts EvE is many things but the main one isn't the pay model, it's the wholesale PvP and/or crime. Not getting Jeweler Jenny to come into a game that will steal her stash. That's a no go from the start. WoW players can withstand even the skill training, but steal their gear? They'll play Minecraft before EvE.


So everyone should start petitioning CCP to buff crime, as it will have the great effect of of keeping Wow players out.

Sounds good to me.
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#270 - 2013-06-28 14:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Franco Stein
Malcanis wrote:
Yes, CCP should abandon their secure market niche, throw their exisiting playerbase under as bus and join the long line of MMO publishers who have struck rich by trying to copy Wow, such as and of course and let's not forget

After all, what company with 10% YoY growth wouldn't hasten to trash their business plan to try and start copying a model which is losing 20% a year.



Not saying you should copy WOW... at all.. I've never been to the website...

I think they have like 9 Million Subscribers who are actually paying each month to play though. That seems like a lot of money! I wonder why so many people are into that game? Forget for a moment that it had 12 million at it's peak.....

That's right because people can play against other players, die and re-spawn to play again without such a high cost of reentry. They can level up their character and have a level 80 dude roaming around town, if that level 80 dude gets jumped - no biggie - he respawns and ALL this gear he worked so hard for is maintained.... just needs to repair it or something.

In EVE, sure you can have a 150M SP dude, jump in a T3 -2Billion ISK rig, but don't think for a minute you're going to keep it!!! Nope, in a moment of Glory, that rig is toast... So you have to pluck down $50 buck or grind to get it back over the course of days or weeks if you don't have EVE as a Job..... That my friend is only ONE PVP experience where you lost your battle.....
If you want it cheaper, your 150M SP dude has to play like a level 1 player and jump in a T1 frigate ... okay!

The cost to play against other players is too high, and the content of the game is vastly going towards being only available in PVP areas.


I have 50 Billion ISK, that took me a few years to earn playing every daily sometimes and other times not at all.... That means if I want to play at my mains level of game play, I could have only 50 loses - considering Implants, clone costs, decent ship to compete....etc..etc..
Mag's
Azn Empire
#271 - 2013-06-28 14:20:48 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?

That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.

I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible!
How is CCP getting more money per month from the Plex, fail exactly?

Just because you are not spending RL monies, doesn't mean others are not. Just how do you think a Plex comes into existence?

Oh and people trade existing ISK for the Plex. It does not create ISK when traded.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#272 - 2013-06-28 14:29:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Franco Stein
Mag's wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?

That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.

I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible!
How is CCP getting more money per month from the Plex, fail exactly?

Just because you are not spending RL monies, doesn't mean others are not. Just how do you think a Plex comes into existence?

Oh and people trade existing ISK for the Plex. It does not create ISK when traded.


It amazes me how people don't get how PLEX is born. When I first stared playing I bought GTC's (Game Time Codes) from one of CCP vendors.. I did so to get my head start as most do, because I am greedy and lazy!

1) Real Money gets thrown down to a Vendor for a Game Time Code of 2 months of play time for $35.
2) I then take that cool time code and offer it in the TimeCode Bazaar (now they've made it easier and can just turn it into 2 PLEX in game). At the time I did it, I think I got like $450 million ISK per ....
3) PLEX is then sold on the market for ISK, which in turn I can if I want to - Buy GEAR without earning it in game.

This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator".

EVE is certainly a niche, but not in a good way....

Edit = I see you were be sarcastic there... my bad.... you already know the scam....sorry!
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-06-28 14:32:27 UTC
Ecks Khan wrote:
So everyone should start petitioning CCP to buff crime, as it will have the great effect of of keeping Wow players out.

Sounds good to me.


CCP would probably reduce it if they want to grab the strays before they get established in another MMO. If they get established in another MMO they're not leaving for a long time. Which is what older MMOs prefer, as those bitter vets aren't going to stay forever in EvE, too.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS
#274 - 2013-06-28 14:35:20 UTC
"Other games have much larger subscription bases, due to the player retention. They just have a reason for the player to come back and want to play. EVE just doesn't have that kind of content or interest for most gamers. It's just too harsh!"

That's an issue with the game's core game design principals, not the PLEX system. CCP have always intended EvE to appeal to a niche market, the game's harsh ruleset will put off many players thoughout its entire lifetime.

"…but now only one beacon of light survives.  A stubborn world that dared to defy Mintchip, Lord of the Lollipops."
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#275 - 2013-06-28 14:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Six Six Six
Franco Stein wrote:
Six Six Six wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
I have had up to 8 accounts running at the same time in the past.. Now I have 3, and might just plex my main for a few years in case I play again. In any regard .... as I said.



So using PLEX is ok for you but a cheat for everyone else?




Of course I use PLEX to sub my accounts.... why in the world would I pay real money to play this game if I don't have to?

That is my point.... the payment system is a fail due to this.

I don't have to buy PLEX with Real Money because I have 50 billion ISK from playing the game. I've cancelled all my sub accounts and they are on a PLEX payment type now, if I want to reactivate one, I just buy a PLEX in market.... this should not be possible!

1) I don't need to Pay anymore because I am amazing and entrenched.
2) Friends won't play because PVP is too harsh and they get no reward for their hour or two of play time.

PLEX on the flip side has killed the game..... and turned it in to Entropia for many many players.
The reason this game will never be more than the very vocal limited player base... is due to PLEX.

This isn't a JOB folks..... it's a game and even though it has a GREAT potential to be amazing, it sucks due to the very high cost of PVP..... some of you think that's great if you have the RL cash or you're a full timer who has tons of ISK.. but to the rest of the world... it's just stupid.

If you spend more than an hour or two playing this game a day... you are addicted and should quit for two full weeks.

PS.. Forum PVP is way more fun than in game PVP..








I think you're just using PLEX as an excuse.

Continuing the subscription by using PLEX is not a goal of the game, people can make it a personal goal or they can choose to continue by paying a subscription that is a choice the player must make.

So people that choose to use isk to buy PLEX to extend their game time can't complain that their isk is going on PLEX and leaving them short when it comes to isk needed for PvP.

EVE is not a job but you can treat it as such if you so wish, again that is the player's choice. In fact for those selling the PLEX that they purchased form CCP they're actually avoiding treating the game as a job in part. Some like treating it like a job others don't I think PLEX works quite well in this respect.

Franco Stein wrote:
some of you think that's great if you have the RL cash or you're a full timer who has tons of ISK.. but to the rest of the world... it's just stupid.



I'd say this comes back to your idea of it not being fair. Well the world isn't fair it never have been and probably never will be.




Anyway I have to go out, so I'll have to revisit this later.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#276 - 2013-06-28 14:37:56 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator".
How does the ability to trade paid game time make the payment system fail? It seems to be a roaring success. And how does it turn it into not being a game any more?

Quote:
EVE is certainly a niche, but not in a good way.
EVE has long since crept out of the niche it once was in. Half a million subscribers and constant growth for ten years pretty much disqualifies it from that position.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#277 - 2013-06-28 14:37:57 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Yes, CCP should abandon their secure market niche, throw their exisiting playerbase under as bus and join the long line of MMO publishers who have struck rich by trying to copy Wow, such as and of course and let's not forget

After all, what company with 10% YoY growth wouldn't hasten to trash their business plan to try and start copying a model which is losing 20% a year.



Not saying you should copy WOW... at all.. I've never been to the website...

I think they have like 9 Million Subscribers who are actually paying each month to play though. That seems like a lot of money! I wonder why so many people are into that game? Forget for a moment that it had 12 million at it's peak.....

That's right because people can play against other players, die and re-spawn to play again without such a high cost of reentry. They can level up their character and have a level 80 dude roaming around town, if that level 80 dude gets jumped - no biggie - he respawns and ALL this gear he worked so hard for is maintained.... just needs to repair it or something.


Here is the problem I think Malcanis is trying to highlight though. What you give as an example is done do death and WoW is the only MMO, that has had such success with it and even it is losing subs constantly now. Everyone else has straight up failed miserably at achieving the same success. Every single one. So if a miracle happens and EVE is somehow transformed to follow the system you describe, what makes you think the result is the 1% chance of currently unreproduced huge success vs the 99% chance of almost certain failure? If you had the definite answer to that question, you'd propably one of the most wanted person in the world of online gaming. Tons of specialists have bet hundreds of millions on the fact, that they had the answer and they have all missed the mark.

Franco Stein wrote:
In EVE, sure you can have a 150M SP dude, jump in a T3 -2Billion ISK rig, but don't think for a minute you're going to keep it!!! Nope, in a moment of Glory, that rig is toast... So you have to pluck down $50 buck or grind to get it back over the course of days or weeks if you don't have EVE as a Job..... That my friend is only ONE PVP experience where you lost your battle.....
If you want it cheaper, your 150M SP dude has to play like a level 1 player and jump in a T1 frigate ... okay!

The cost to play against other players is too high, and the content of the game is vastly going towards being only available in PVP areas.


I have 50 Billion ISK, that took me a few years to earn playing every daily sometimes and other times not at all.... That means if I want to play at my mains level of game play, I could have only 50 loses - considering Implants, clone costs, decent ship to compete....etc..etc..


Your whole view of the situation is just weird. T1 frigates equal lvl1 players? Ridiculously expensive ships equal playing at high level? That just isn't how this game works. You're trying to force a linear progression level based game system to fit with one, that doesn't have levels or linear progression in that sense. The problem isn't the actual system, but you trying to force your incompatible gameview to a system, that functions in a different way. There is definitely a problem here, but it's a problem of false perception. That doesn't mean it's not real or harmful, but it means it isn't what you describe it to be.
Ecks Khan
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#278 - 2013-06-28 14:40:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ecks Khan
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Ecks Khan wrote:
So everyone should start petitioning CCP to buff crime, as it will have the great effect of of keeping Wow players out.

Sounds good to me.


CCP would probably reduce it if they want to grab the strays before they get established in another MMO. If they get established in another MMO they're not leaving for a long time. Which is what older MMOs prefer, as those bitter vets aren't going to stay forever in EvE, too.


Crime is what makes EvE special, it's what all the news stories about. I'm not a very good criminal, I did try a scam once and ended up paying out more than I made hehe. But crime, and things like piracy and ganking and scamming and such, these are the "spice of life" things of a game like this.

If the people behind EvE wanted it to be huge, why did they make a niche spaceship game to begin with? And why are people keen to discard things which have proved successful over the decade this MMO has existed? I believe everything has it's place and that it's ok to not like certain things, but it's players who should seek out games they like rather than trying to change cool games like EvE (and my favorite, Darkfall) to suit their gaming style.
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS
#279 - 2013-06-28 14:41:08 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
[1) Real Money gets thrown down to a Vendor for a Game Time Code of 2 months of play time for $35.
2) I then take that cool time code and offer it in the TimeCode Bazaar (now they've made it easier and can just turn it into 2 PLEX in game). At the time I did it, I think I got like $450 million ISK per ....
3) PLEX is then sold on the market for ISK, which in turn I can if I want to - Buy GEAR without earning it in game.

This is a fail, because it's supposed to be a game...not a "Buy my Rig" and see how I do against the hugely entrenched PVP base "Simulator".


Why is it a fail? One party gets the ISK they want, the other gets play time they want from a resource they don't need. Both parties win and the ability to do so comes at the benefit of a greater number of subscriptions for CCP and less illegal RMT, which comes as a quality of life improvement for the rest of the player base.

Everybody wins. There is no fail in your explanation.

"…but now only one beacon of light survives.  A stubborn world that dared to defy Mintchip, Lord of the Lollipops."
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#280 - 2013-06-28 14:43:47 UTC
Guy is upset because EVE isn't a cookie-cutter MMO.

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