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Should remove PLEX as a form of payment... pull the free to play

First post
Author
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2013-06-28 06:46:58 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about.


The UK and the US will never agree to that.

The US would probably even goto war over it (we started the American Revolution over taxes alone). Same if the UN tries to be a global governing body.

The whole mess with the EURO shows that even Europe isn't ready for a universal currency (and England was wise to not join to bailout the mess).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Franco Stein
Doomheim
#182 - 2013-06-28 06:50:06 UTC
Tippia you are doing well to entertain in our banter.... you troll as well as l...

However . . . . Give me one last bit of your wisdom.

What do you think would happen if CCP did the following things.

1) Removed PLEX as a item completely from the game and did not replace it with something similar.
2) Limited the number of client apps that can load a single computer to just one.
3) Required that all accounts subscribe to the game or buy a non transferable GTC to actually add time to an account.

Would the game following in the footsteps of most of the Sony Games and lose, or would this community of players support it?
Would you still enjoy the game with 200k real solo players, as opposed to the multi account players.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-06-28 06:57:29 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about.


The UK and the US will never agree to that.

The US would probably even goto war over it (we started the American Revolution over taxes alone). Same if the UN tries to be a global governing body.

The whole mess with the EURO shows that even Europe isn't ready for a universal currency (and England was wise to not join to bailout the mess).

Honestly, all of that could have been avoided by just letting the countries with bloated national debts fail. Everyone likes to think it would cause some extinction level event, but in all reality, the average citizen of those countries wouldn't even realize it happened. Well, except for the dying government wailing that without them, all is lost. Hell, just look at Somalia. That place has been a hellhole for as long as anyone can remember. Now that it's government has lost any semblance of power, things actually started to improve for the population on an economic level. Of course, there are still areas of the country that are screwed, but the same could be said for anywhere really.
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#184 - 2013-06-28 06:59:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
If you pay money to CCP it should only be to subscribe to have access to the content of this game and THAT IS ALL.
Congratulations. You have finally understood what PLEX is, and why it isn't F2P or P2W.



Tippia you are saying the sky is RED over and over again...

If I buy a GTC and covert it to ISK via the "Process" and buy a faction fitted ship to go battle an exact new player just like me who is flying the non faction version of the same ship.... I am playing with an advantage due to my RL money transaction.... I didn't use the GTC to subscribe for this particular transaction.... I just bought a faction fit that has better stats then the T1...... i cheated!

If I see a great deal in Motsu on Trit that a guy is giving away at 3.50 ISK per for a huge quantity of 100 million units, but I don't have the ISK in my wallet to make the deal in time.... so I quickly buy a GTC and "Process it" to ISK..so I can make the deal..... I cheated that guy who worked for the ISK, had it in his wallet and is going to login in two minutes to see the deal.....


Pull PLEX..


So, in the second example given, you are cheating a theoretical person out of a theoretical profit, simply by using a CCP approved transaction? Nevermind that if you go around walking on eggshells to not "cheat" theoretical people, you will never undock, but hey.

That's not cheating, you just got there first. However you got the money for it is irrelevant. You could just as easily have borrowed it from your corp. He who hesitates...

Now, in your first example. That is also not cheating, because the other person has the same method available to them as well. ou might call it a P2W style advantage, but nothing about it is unfair or exclusive to you. Nor does it in any way guarantee victory, especially at low skill levels where you cannot leverage as much of the bonuses of a faction ship.

It's also not cheating because this advantage is not permanently available to you. In EVE, there is item loss on death, as you would call it in other games. Just like your gear dropped in Ultima Online, in EVE your ship goes poof, and your mods may or may not make it out. Having more money in the short term than someone else isn't the massive advantage you make it out to be. Access to a far higher revenue stream is also not a guarantee of victory, you can still be outplayed, or beaten by a player with better skills.

Cheating is breaking the rules. In a game, this typically refers to getting around the limitations imposed by the game client in some way, in other words hacking. Do you think that buying PLEX is as bad as hacking?


i am in no way saying it is against any rules of CCP, it's just not gaming in a true sense. The fact that some players have more real life money that others is most often not a factor in PVP gaming. It's skill, effort, etc...... time put in...blah, blah...

in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game to get my rocks over another player who can't do the same..... Just because he has the right to buy ISK as well as I has no bearing when they do not have the means to do it in RL... Some people just don't go that far to kick arrss..... when it was just a fake kicking of the arrss in the first place.... the stakes are already stacked to the lifers, why make the new ones pay their way too?

The cheat is the advantage to privilege, not the actual skill involved to win........ Only the rich should play because it is in the rules..... okay!
TharOkha
0asis Group
One Man Corps Alliance
#185 - 2013-06-28 07:04:08 UTC  |  Edited by: TharOkha
Franco Stein wrote:
The fact that some players have more real life money that others is most often not a factor in PVP gaming. It's skill, effort, etc...... time put in...blah, blah...


Dude, i multi-box myself and for more than 3 years i haven't paid a cent to CCP. Im a succesfull trader in New Eden and i can earn for those accounts by isk.

Claiming that PLEX is "pay to win" is just stupid fallacy. PLEX just means that SOMEONE ELSE pays for my subs in exchange for my ingame isks. You dont need rl money to win. You just need to be successful in game.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#186 - 2013-06-28 07:05:57 UTC
Quote:
in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game to get my rocks over another player who can't do the same..... Just because he has the right to buy ISK as well as I has no bearing when they do not have the means to do it in RL...


Equality of opportunity, not equality of result. If you, as you seem to, want equality of result, then you are simply not going to get it. If you put more in, you get more out, it's that simple.

If you have the same opportunities as everyone else, regardless of whether you take them or not, then it's fair. If they, for example, only let Caldari players sell PLEX on the market, that would unfair. But if the same opportunities are afforded to you, and for whatever reason you don't take them, then it's on you.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2013-06-28 07:08:54 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:

i am in no way saying it is against any rules of CCP, it's just not gaming in a true sense. The fact that some players have more real life money that others is most often not a factor in PVP gaming. It's skill, effort, etc...... time put in...blah, blah...

in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game to get my rocks over another player who can't do the same..... Just because he has the right to buy ISK as well as I has no bearing when they do not have the means to do it in RL... Some people just don't go that far to kick arrss..... when it was just a fake kicking of the arrss in the first place.... the stakes are already stacked to the lifers, why make the new ones pay their way too?

The cheat is the advantage to privilege, not the actual skill involved to win........ Only the rich should play because it is in the rules..... okay!

You've not fought many Russians in Eve, have you?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#188 - 2013-06-28 07:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Franco Stein wrote:
Tippia you are doing well to entertain in our banter.... you troll as well as l.
Seeing as how you troll, and I don't… no.

Quote:
What do you think would happen if CCP did the following things.

1) Removed PLEX as a item completely from the game and did not replace it with something similar.
2) Limited the number of client apps that can load a single computer to just one.
3) Required that all accounts subscribe to the game or buy a non transferable GTC to actually add time to an account.
Crash and burn.

Quote:
in my examples I shouldn't have a way to add RL money to a game
…and in your examples, you don't, since you're talking about EVE. Your basic fallacy that you can somehow buy ISK remains. No-one in EVE has the right to buy ISK — those who try get banned for breaking the rules. On top of this is the completely false notion that PLEX somehow lets you buy some form of “win”, when, again all it does is give you the same stuff everyone else is using. So apparently, they won long before you even got there…

Quote:
The cheat is the advantage to privilege, not the actual skill involved to win.
…and as luck would have it, the stuff required to win is not in any way related to real money. PLEX gives no advantage since all it does is give you the exact same things you could have without paying for it.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2013-06-28 07:25:46 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I agree with you 100%. In fact, such is the reason why I firmly believe that globalization is destined for failure until a singular currency and pricing format comes about.


The UK and the US will never agree to that.

The US would probably even goto war over it (we started the American Revolution over taxes alone). Same if the UN tries to be a global governing body.

The whole mess with the EURO shows that even Europe isn't ready for a universal currency (and England was wise to not join to bailout the mess).

Honestly, all of that could have been avoided by just letting the countries with bloated national debts fail. Everyone likes to think it would cause some extinction level event, but in all reality, the average citizen of those countries wouldn't even realize it happened. Well, except for the dying government wailing that without them, all is lost. Hell, just look at Somalia. That place has been a hellhole for as long as anyone can remember. Now that it's government has lost any semblance of power, things actually started to improve for the population on an economic level. Of course, there are still areas of the country that are screwed, but the same could be said for anywhere really.


True but the crux is Europe is mostly socialist. And the concept of a universal currency works with capitalism. Socialism will bleed the bank dry (and the problem in places like Greece in the first place, that got into trouble by using the coffers as a way to employ people even). As long as Europe still clings to ideals that can't pay for itself (the state doesn't make money itself, a concept socialists don't understand, if there's no money it has to be taxed. If you tax 50% of the incomes to pay for the services, there's less disposable incomes. And it's disposable incomes that allows people to play games), a universal currency won't work. It will fail like the USSR failed, because socialism works at a state level, it doesn't work beyond it. Capitalism does and it's proven (the US is still standing and the economic world power, for at least upto 2050).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#190 - 2013-06-28 07:28:54 UTC
...or make all of EvE free to play. Start sellin' some Aurem CNR's. WHO'S WITH ME?! Big smilePirate

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#191 - 2013-06-28 07:30:16 UTC
SELL IT TO THE BOTS! YARRR! Pirate

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#192 - 2013-06-28 07:31:22 UTC
Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.

Also, I think you'd be surprised the amount of alts people have, and you want to take those away too? I don't think you are thinking this through very well. Plex is the moneymaker for CCP. Always has been, even back when there wasn't plex and CCP just sanctioned game time card sales on the old forums.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2013-06-28 07:34:20 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

True but the crux is Europe is mostly socialist. And the concept of a universal currency works with capitalism. Socialism will bleed the bank dry (and the problem in places like Greece in the first place, that got into trouble by using the coffers as a way to employ people even). As long as Europe still clings to ideals that can't pay for itself (the state doesn't make money itself, a concept socialists don't understand, if there's no money it has to be taxed. If you tax 50% of the incomes to pay for the services, there's less disposable incomes. And it's disposable incomes that allows people to play games), a universal currency won't work. It will fail like the USSR failed, because socialism works at a state level, it doesn't work beyond it. Capitalism does and it's proven (the US is still standing and the economic world power, for at least upto 2050).

I will definitely agree with you there. The only real problem that pure capitalism has is it's bad PR image. "It's not fair" and all of that garbage. The US didn't really start stumbling as an economic power until it started trying to implement various Socialist policies. However, said stumble could be attributed to other things, but they have had less of an impact than the aforementioned policies.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#194 - 2013-06-28 07:40:58 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Remove plex and this game would die a horrible death, guaranteed. In a world where losses are real, you cannot keep the players who refuse to spend hours grinding to replace their losses, and you cannot keep the players who refuse to pay real money to maintain a monthly subscription. Take away the plex, and you will not be left with a sustainable playerbase that will help CCP Maintain and improve their product.


And that's the problem with EvE itself.

It costs too much to play as the game is designed.

To play you need the PLEX, which brings up the ugly head of...P2W.

Because if you're not exchanging $$$ for it, you're literally a pixel slave to earn it in game.

It's how CCP keeps getting $$$ as well, because everything in EvE has a high price tag to it -- from skill books to the transaction fees, all designed to spend so you will buy PLEX for ISK (or other features all tied into it).

Rat chasing his tail deal.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#195 - 2013-06-28 07:43:42 UTC
Quote:
The US didn't really start stumbling as an economic power until it started trying to implement various Socialist policies. However, said stumble could be attributed to other things, but they have had less of an impact than the aforementioned policies.


No, you had it right the first time, the socialist style policies.

Well, that, and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Donora_smog

This "disaster" was what eventually caused the creation of the Environmental Protection Act, along with a number of bizarre and nonsensical restrictions on the steel and mining industries. Eventually, this lead to the death of American heavy manufacturing, and certainly crippled the economic activity of the East Coast. The price of automobiles, for instance, tripled (even taking inflation into account, their objective price tripled) due to the long term effects of the steel shortage. Which is why we have crappy plastic in our modern cars.

This one incident, never seen before or ever repeated again, due to a freak weather accident, caused the deaths of less than two dozen people. But in their name, we heedlessly destroyed millions of jobs, crippled several staple American industries, and created one of the biggest organizations of red tape and needless bureaucracy in human history, costing untold billions of dollars.

*slowclap*

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#196 - 2013-06-28 07:54:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
The US didn't really start stumbling as an economic power until it started trying to implement various Socialist policies. However, said stumble could be attributed to other things, but they have had less of an impact than the aforementioned policies.


No, you had it right the first time, the socialist style policies.

Well, that, and this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Donora_smog

This "disaster" was what eventually caused the creation of the Environmental Protection Act, along with a number of bizarre and nonsensical restrictions on the steel and mining industries. Eventually, this lead to the death of American heavy manufacturing, and certainly crippled the economic activity of the East Coast. The price of automobiles, for instance, tripled (even taking inflation into account, their objective price tripled) due to the long term effects of the steel shortage. Which is why we have crappy plastic in our modern cars.

This one incident, never seen before or ever repeated again, due to a freak weather accident, caused the deaths of less than two dozen people. But in their name, we heedlessly destroyed millions of jobs, crippled several staple American industries, and created one of the biggest organizations of red tape and needless bureaucracy in human history, costing untold billions of dollars.

*slowclap*

Hmmm... I actually remember big steel collapsing. The reason they collapsed was the Japanese were producing huge sheets of flawless metal in robotic factories, and american steel was crappy and full of rust and other flaws. Nobody wanted it. Just FYI.

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#197 - 2013-06-28 08:03:39 UTC
By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#198 - 2013-06-28 08:04:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Hmmm... I actually remember big steel collapsing. The reason they collapsed was the Japanese were producing huge sheets of flawless metal in robotic factories, and american steel was crappy and full of rust and other flaws. Nobody wanted it. Just FYI.


Yeah, pretty much. But it wasn't just competition that killed them, the groundwork for those failures were laid decades prior. Quality control takes a dive when regulatory actions are too heavy. At that point, capitalism is out the door.

Kijo Rikki wrote:
By the way, while you guys are talking about socialism vs capitalism, you should stop by a small country town and see what pure capitalism is, behold Wal-Mart, and nothing else. That is the end result of pure unrestricted capitalism.


So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.

Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#199 - 2013-06-28 08:11:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.

Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.


No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#200 - 2013-06-28 08:15:48 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


So? The very nature of competition is that there will be a winner and a loser, based on their merits as judged by the consumer.

Also, I live in a small rural town, and we have dozens of small vendors that kick our WalMart's ass.


No , there is a winner and everyone else is a loser, including the employees. In my town, there is a walmart and some odds and ends business that covers what walmart just won't sell. So the consumer has little choice (though I do have amazon.com) and that also goes for employment choices. The only thing you can really do is move.


Move is still a choice. Amazon is still a choice. You don't literally have to work there, either. (people lived there in the first place for reasons besides WalMart, so unless WalMart killed the town's fundamental basis for existing, it's still there)

Or are you saying that you'd really rather have the old "Mom and Pop" 15% mark up for goods and services?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.