Player Features and Ideas Discussion

The breakdown comes with specialization.

To specialize in a missle, you need only train that particular missle, and the launcher skill itself to 5.

If you wanted to draw the comparison, the Launcher skill is analogous to a single turret skill, and it gets you every launcher in the game.

To specialize in a Turret you need to get every turret below it to 4, every spec below it to 4, and a support skill to a set level dependent on turret size. Almost none of this training is beneficial to the turret you actually want to use, except for the support skill and the skill and spec of that particular turret size. For battleship guns this is quite a bit of wasted training

Missiles are the opposite. Launcher to 5 benefits any launcher you care to fit. Support skills are optional. The only 'wasted' training is the comparatively trivial requirement to get the lower missile skill to 3, taking up at most a day, maybe 2 but I don't think so.

Being able to use both the short and long range version of a weapon do not make you twice as effective. You still only benefit from what you fit, and the turrets have radically different mechanics concerning damage application.

If you want to use both short and long range missles on a given ship, then suck up your extra couple hours training and fit what you like.

It is balanced.


You have a far reduced time to be able to use the weapon of your choice. Turrets take a little less than twice as long, but come with greater variety.

The trade off is clear in the weapon systems themselves too. If your first weapon was the long range variant, you have all the flexibility that the 2 turret types grant the turret user because missiles don't care how far the target is so long as they can reach it. With turrets if you are trying to hit something nearby with a long range turret you better hope you have good support skills and modules to boost the tracking.

You also seem to be ignoring the requirement on battleship guns to get both Motion Prediction and Sharpshooting to 5 to be able to train up both specs. With missiles the support skills are optional, though a stupidly good idea. With turrets those two skills are Mandatory to spec.

You are trying to draw a distinction between missiles and turrets. They are the nearly the exact same thing once you take away the words missile and turret:

We could go in to long discussions about the finer points of tracking and all that jazz. But that isn't super relevant because at their base they are essentially the same thing.

And support skills are different and not really relevant to this discussion. Gunnery support skills also effect 3 turret systems. That is huge for cross training to a different turret. You would train them anyway because you would be bad at Eve not to. Yes, it isn't mandatory, but it is training you would do anyway for missiles. The news proposed system would also remove these as prereqs.

I suppose if you REALLY wanted everything to be the same you could unify the missile and gunnery skills in to a broad "Weapon Systems" section. You would have to change the names of a lot of the support skills so it would make sense that it would effect both missiles and turrets.

Less than that even.
With maxed out Perception and Willpower attributes (and ignoring any support skill prerequisites)...

it takes 15 or 16 days to train up Torpedos from level 1 to level 5. Same applies for Cruise missiles (I haven't trained up either yet so I'm staring at the training times right now). So it takes ~32 days total to get both skills up to level 5 and another ~5 days apiece to get their specializations up to 4... so ~42 days total if you don't train up any support skills.

Guns meanwhile...

~5 days for small turret @ level 5
~9 days for 2x small turret specializations @ level 4
~12 days for medium turret @ level 5
~7 days for 2x medium turret specilzations @ level 4
~20 days for large turret @ level 5
~10 days for 2x large turret specializations @ level 4

= ~94 days total to use both long and short range Tech 2 large turrets.


I think the basic idea behind the skill systems is that;

- with missile skills you can train directly into the weapon system you desire without concerning yourself with anything else... making specialization into a certain weapon system easy and quick. However, to train ALL missiles skills to the same level takes longer.

- the turret skill system takes less time than missiles to train everything to Tech 2 level... however there is no way to specialize (see: get Tech 2) in any of the larger turrets without training and specializing in the smaller turret sizes first.

This is fair.


However I would not be opposed to changing the turret skill system to be like the missile system (longer overall training times but can train larger weapon systems without small weapon prerequisites).

Incorrect, because you have to add ~70 days to also get T2 Large Railguns to level 5. Plus, nobody is fitting blasters and railguns on their ship at the same time, in the same way that you're not fitting torpedo and cruise missile launchers on your ship.

Missile skill training time is LOWER, and wastes LESS SP.

Here are the numbers:

Missiles: 73 days for T2 Torpedoes V (+83 days T2 Cruise Missiles V) = 155 Days for both @ (13,140 SP + 19,800SP = ~33k wasted SP for Light missiles and HAMs)
Hybrids: 126.5 days for T2 Large Blasters V (+68 days for T2 Large Railguns V) = 194 Days for both @ (256,000 SP + 135,765(x2)SP + 768,000 SP + 226,275(x2) SP = 1,748,080 wasted SP for Small Hybrid V + 2 specs and Medium Hybrid V + 2 Specs)

Please note this data is assuming no implants, 1,800 SP/hr, on a base character who hasn't trained anything.

Missile training needs to shift towards the Gunnery progression path while simultaneously segmenting the S/M/L Specialization paths for both to support the new changes to ship skills. Suggested changes:

MISSILE LAUNCHERS:

Missile Bombardment
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation II

Small Missile Launcher (replaces Rockets + Light Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation I

Rocket Specialization
REQUIRES: Small Missile Launcher V + Target Navigation Prediction III

Light Missile Specialization
REQUIRES: Small Missile Launcher V + Missile Bombardment III


Medium Missile Launcher (replaces Heavy Assault Missiles + Heavy Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation III + Small Missile Launcher III

Assault Missile Specialization (replaces Heavy Assault Missile Specialization)
REQUIRES: Medium Missile Launcher V + Target Navigation Prediction IV

Heavy Missile Specialization
REQUIRES: Medium Missile Launcher V + Missile Bombardment IV


Large Missile Launcher (replaces Torpedoes + Cruise Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation V + Medium Missile Launcher III

Torpedo Specialization
REQUIRES: Large Missile Launcher V + Target Navigation Prediction V

Cruise Missile Specialization
REQUIRES: Large Missile Launcher V + Missile Bombardment V

T2 short range Missile Launchers (Rockets/HAMs/Torps) require Target Navigation Prediction (target velocity) to match Motion Prediction (tracking speed) for short range Turrets (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon).

T2 long range Missile Launchers (Light/Heavy/Cruise) require Missile Bombardment (flight time) to match Sharpshooting (optimal range) for long range Turrets (Beam/Railgun/Artillery).


Capital Missile Launcher (replaces Citadel Torpedoes + Citadel Cruise Missiles)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation V + Large Missile Launcher V

Launcher Upgrades (replaces Weapon Upgrades for Missile Launchers)
REQUIRES: Missile Launcher Operation II

Advanced Launcher Upgrades (replaces Advanced Weapon Upgrades for Missile Launchers)
REQUIRES: Launcher Upgrades V + Missile Launcher Operation IV

Brings Capital Missile Launchers in line with Capital Turrets and splits (Advanced) Weapon Upgrades into separate Missile/Turret version.


ENERGY/HYBRID/PROJECTILE TURRETS:

Small (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Specialization
REQUIRES: Small (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Turret V + Motion Prediction III

Small (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Specialization
REQUIRES: Small (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Turret V + Sharpshooter III


Medium (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Specialization
REQUIRES: Medium (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Turret V + Motion Prediction IV

Medium (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Specialization
REQUIRES: Medium (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Turret V + Sharpshooter IV


Large (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Specialization
REQUIRES: Large (Pulse/Blaster/Autocannon) Turret V + Motion Prediction V

Large (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Specialization
REQUIRES: Large (Beam/Railgun/Artillery) Turret V + Sharpshooter V

Allows pilots to skip to the specialization that matches their ship rather than wait out earlier specializations they might never use.


Turret Upgrades (replaces Weapon Upgrades for Turrets)
REQUIRES: Gunnery II

Advanced Turret Upgrades (replaces Advanced Weapon Upgrades for Turrets)
REQUIRES: Turret Upgrades V + Gunnery IV

Turret version of (Advanced) Weapon Upgrades)


Time multipliers would likely need to be changed for some skills to equalize training times for the respective paths, but these changes match the mindset CCP has clearly adopted with regards to ship training.

I fail to see how that's a bad thing considering it's for T2 Cruise Missiles. . . not T1. . .

You seem to be forgetting the fact that Missiles don't damage their targets immediately after firing like Turrets. Having a greater velocity/flight time than your targeting is actually a good thing as it decreases the chance that your target will outrun your missiles with speed.

Compare this to something like the Apocalypse that can easily shoot double its targeting distance. There is a reason why I consider them "long range" Missile Launchers and "long range" Turrets.

It's actually my contention that the gunnary skills need to be changed to work the way missiles currently do, not the reverse.

Missiles in their current iteration fit perfectly with the "faster to specialize longer to cross train" idea that CCP is shooting for with the new skill changes.

That being said right now they are currently balanced. If your goal is to train battleship short ranged weapons, youll have T2 torpedoes long before you have T2 large guns, but as you pointed out, if you want all the weapon sizes then guns are shorter.