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Should remove PLEX as a form of payment... pull the free to play

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Franco Stein
Doomheim
#141 - 2013-06-27 23:17:49 UTC
Tixam Quri wrote:



PLEX trade for ~550mil isk or more.

People are not winning with that amount.

They are learning valuable (read: costly) lessons sooner rather than later.

People that are established in game (read and think about this next part carefully) DO NOT NEED TO SELL PLEX TO GET MONEY TO WIN.

So again, let's be perfectly clear here.

You are talking out your arse



The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?

Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts.
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2013-06-27 23:17:57 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
....



PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference!



Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... What?
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-06-27 23:22:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Franco Stein
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
....



PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference!



Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... What?



PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY....

ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY....

That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it!

PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code.... plain and simple, and a PAY (read again the description of PLEX) to WIN or with our simplified example = Pay for Advantage!!!


The REAL BIGGEST BUMMER about it is..... There is no incentive to Subscribe to this game after the initial startup and the publisher is forced to scam for revenue!
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2013-06-27 23:28:00 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?

Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts.


Of course they are using it to pay for game time.

Your original argument was that PLEX was pay to win, you have lost that argument so now you are complaining that space rich players play for free.

Guess what?

They are also the ones manufacturing ships/modules/equipment that allow noobs to access the best the game has to offer.

Them buying PLEX benefits new players willing to sell PLEX for startup isk.

Let me finish with repeating that NEW PLAYERS DON'T WIN BY BUYING PLEX.

Try it and let us know how you do.

Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#145 - 2013-06-27 23:29:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Franco Stein
Tixam Quri wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?

Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts.


Of course they are using it to pay for game time.

Your original argument was that PLEX was pay to win, you have lost that argument so now you are complaining that space rich players play for free.

Guess what?

They are also the ones manufacturing ships/modules/equipment that allow noobs to access the best the game has to offer.

Them buying PLEX benefits new players willing to sell PLEX for startup isk.

Let me finish with repeating that NEW PLAYERS DON'T WIN BY BUYING PLEX.

Try it and let us know how you do.




The original post is the same, you just say one part of it.... that PLEX is bad.... read it again

PLEX gives lifers a FREE way to play and others a insta-advantage..... two streets...same problem!
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2013-06-27 23:31:34 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
....



PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference!



Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... What?



PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY....

ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY....

That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it!

PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code.... plain and simple, and a PAY (read again the description of PLEX) to WIN or with our simplified example = Pay for Advantage!!!


The REAL BIGGEST BUMMER about it is..... There is no incentive to Subscribe to this game after the initial startup and the publisher is forced to scam for revenue!



PLEX can be purchased with ISK that was made from purchasing a SUB.

So again your argument is invalid.

Please get a life. Go play something you like Blink

You have kept me somewhat entertained at work today, but it's time to go home now.

Bye

Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-06-27 23:33:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Franco Stein
Tixam Quri wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
Franco Stein wrote:
Karsa Egivand wrote:
....



PLEX isn't ISK or it would be called ISK...... know the difference!



Could you explain? I honestly don't know what you mean ... What?



PLEX originates using REAL Money ONLY....

ISK is earned in Game and is FAKE money ONLY....

That is the difference..... just because you can turn PLEX into ISK or buy an already in game PLEX for ISK doesn't make them the same. PLEX doesn't get in game unless someone paid REAL money for it!

PLEX turned into ISK is a cheat code.... plain and simple, and a PAY (read again the description of PLEX) to WIN or with our simplified example = Pay for Advantage!!!


The REAL BIGGEST BUMMER about it is..... There is no incentive to Subscribe to this game after the initial startup and the publisher is forced to scam for revenue!



PLEX can be purchased with ISK that was made from purchasing a SUB.

So again your argument is invalid.

Please get a life. Go play something you like Blink

You have kept me somewhat entertained at work today, but it's time to go home now.

Bye



Have a good night.... truly it's all in good fun... I am throwing the idea out to stir the pot and that is all.... i'm done too.... won't post on this subject again....
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#148 - 2013-06-27 23:42:27 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
I think the issues is your definition of winning folks.

Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!

Winning in this game could mean all or none of the following and is certainly effected by RL Money being added to buy earned game items instead of actually earning them or buying them in game from earned efforts.... piracy, trading, whatever?

1) Seed money to trade with= I am a master trader, all I need is a few billion ISK to control my market... let's PLEX it.
2) False value of time vs reward vs risk: My Tengu will cost me one hour of work time, let's role!!! I'll Just PLEX it.
3) Serious advantage in PVE game play of ALL sorts. With Plex I can buy ORCA's, Miners, Storming missions, etc..etc.
4) Legitimately beating a high score (personal or group).... in all areas of the game!

If all you think winning is .... surrounds blowing up another players rig... well, no one can help you.....





PLEX is no more an advantage than a player giving an alt isk which happens all the time. So I guess you want to get rid of alts as well. While you're at it I guess you'd want to get rid of the character market too, as that can be also seen as an advantage by some.

I don't use alts I also pay by sub even though I don't have to. I have more isk than I know what to do with at this moment so buying PLEX would not benefit me one bit if the goal was to sell for isk. Any advantage you might gain is limited by the skills that your character has trained. But in the grand scheme of things the advantage you would gain is small certainly not enough to worry about.

So even I think you're really making a mountain out of a molehill.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#149 - 2013-06-27 23:48:10 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
You puzzle me?

What does buying something in JITA have to do with Buying ISK via a real life transaction to get a TIme Code to sell to get ISK.
It has to do with how you're skipping over the very important part of where the ISK and characters are coming from.

When you use ISK to buy a PLEX or a character (or vice versa, or any combination thereof), all that's happening is that you're transferring in-game assets. My ISK for your PLEX. My character for your ISK. My PLEX for your character… (actually that isn't allowed — we have to go through the medium of ISK to make that happen). All of it already has to exist in-game for the trade to be made.

If no-one has taken the time to create the ISK, then there will be nothing to sell your PLEX for. It doesn't matter how low you're willing to go — you can't sell it. You gain zero ISK. Conversely, it doesn't matter how much ISK you have — if no-one has created a PLEX, you are up a certain creek without a paddle and you will not be able to “play for free” any more no matter what. Finally, and in exactly the same way, unless someone has spent the two years required, there will be no 50M SP character for you to buy, and you can have every ISK and PLEX in the database — you're not getting a 50M SP character.

It is all in-game assets that other players have produced and are willing to sell to you. They are no different than Neutron Blaster Cannon IIs. Buying any of those don't buy you any more “win” than buying a rack of NBCIIs does: you only get what other people are willing to sell you, and you only get stuff that already exists in the game because people have followed the standard rules for creating them, using the standard rules that balance that creation process. There are no exploits; no cheats; nothing but an exchange of effort and time.

You can't buy any “win” because then someone else would have already won the game with the “win” you're trying to buy. If they did, why on earth would they be selling it to you? Maybe it's because it doesn't actually “win” anything so buying it can't be P2W. There is no sudden advantage gained through any of the processes you describe because they have all been in the game for ages and/or are already balanced out by the restrictions on creating them — restrictions that apply equally to everyone.
Abon
Pandorum Research Incorporated
#150 - 2013-06-27 23:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Abon
Franco Stein wrote:
Tixam Quri wrote:



PLEX trade for ~550mil isk or more.

People are not winning with that amount.

They are learning valuable (read: costly) lessons sooner rather than later.

People that are established in game (read and think about this next part carefully) DO NOT NEED TO SELL PLEX TO GET MONEY TO WIN.

So again, let's be perfectly clear here.

You are talking out your arse



The difference is the LIFER or "established as you say it" doesn't need to sell PLEX and therefore uses PLEX to play for FREE, or they wouldn't be complaining about me suggesting that PLEX be removed from the game...... who is talking out of where?

Why in the world would an established player care one way or another if PLEX exists if they weren't using it to sub accounts.


Okay listen Hodor i give it another try.

The PLEX is simply payed for by another person. Nobody plays for "free". It is the equivalent of paying for my buddies EVE sub with my CC. Only by PLEX people can "borrow" other peoples credit cards to pay for their sub and compensate them for their costs with ISK. It is an ingame prepaid card if you want to see it like that. If there would be no PLEX, people would just do it out of game on some player run trade forums. Same happens with prepaid game time codes in other games. Sell WOW timecode or whatever crap game and receive gold, happens all the time. P2W? Not everybody has a credit card you know...

I know A TON of "established" players who pay with their cards for their subs since they blow up all their earned ISK in PVP. They only rat or explore to pay for their toys.

You need to simply educated yourself a little bit about EVE demographics. Young players don`t need (nobody needs to infact) to sell PLEX since they can barely fly anything and can earn the ISK they need fairly fast as small ships are rather cheap.
As you progress in your skills and start to fly more expensive stuff you also have more and better income. Once you are "established" you earn so much ingame that you can easily burn some shiny stuff in PVP if you want to and still be able to fill up your pockets again quickly.

In all my EVE years i was able to afford to fly whatever i wanted without selling a single PLEX and lost a fair share of stuff in PVP. Never had problems to earn the money back. You can make money extremely easy in EVE even as a noob. If my dread gets killed today i could buy myself a new one in about two or three days assuming i would be almost broke and only my Tengu is left in the hangar.

Also PLEX are used for a multitude of other things. Adding game time to your account is just one of many. You simply cannot buy the experience needed to do stuff "good" in EVE. Don`t even think about "winning for PLEX"..that is the most hilarious thing ever.

If you really think PLEX is P2W then i wish you very much to stumble about a P2W pilot once. Those are also known as loot pinatas as they sit in completely overfitted ships with no idea what is going on whatsoever.

See? That is some easy cash right there for you to make. Make him go pop and harvest the remains. You could even buy yourself a PLEX or two with that shiny P2W loot and use themt! Imagine that! You can actually KILL a (wannabe) P2W officer fitted dude (since PLEX can`t buy experience), loot his wreck, sell the loot, buy your own PLEX to play for free! And you killed him without spending a single PLEX in the first place!!! What heresy is that!

Shocked


Addendum: See Tippias post for all the stuff i got wrong or forgot. Bear
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2013-06-28 00:41:30 UTC
I think I figured out an appropriate TL;DR for this thread.

"QQ, it's not fair. Everything should be based around one character per person, and all should be equal. It's not fair that others can afford more stuff and more characters than me. I demand true space communism. QQ."

That about right?
Abon
Pandorum Research Incorporated
#152 - 2013-06-28 00:43:16 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I think I figured out an appropriate TL;DR for this thread.

"QQ, it's not fair. Everything should be based around one character per person, and all should be equal. It's not fair that others can afford more stuff and more characters than me. I demand true space communism. QQ."

That about right?


Spot on.
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#153 - 2013-06-28 01:08:41 UTC

I thought I was over it, but you keep just making mistakes over and over and have a tremendously warped (pun intended) understanding of FAIR Gaming and Game play that is designed to be unfair..

LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR....

ADDING even ONE Cent to a game using REAL money for any GEAR or Character Advantage PERIOD is cheating, when another player has to skill or EARN it in game. The advantage goes to the person who just Bought it... if the advantage is time, then they get it.. if the advantage is the ability to control a market, then they get it.... if the advantage is to just sit in a stupid ship and be a big shot in local, then they get it..... not by merit, but buying it... .. Real MONEY should only be added for additional content, not advantage! if you think PLEX doesn't equal advantage then you're just stupid and need to go back to school and study, or you just focus on ONE part of the game and that's how cool your gang is.

Second.... If you think paying for your personal Subscription using PLEX bought with FAKE money is "YOU" contributing to the game developers pockets, you are WRONG... but, you blowing up the guy who got suckered into buying the PLEX with RL money is in FACT helping CCP... so more power to you!! But "YOU" like so many others who are fighting for PLEX not for the sake of what is right, but for what is FREE or easy!!!! CCP doesn't need YOU to help them blow ships up, they can just make NPC's harder, or do what they have already done and remove PVP for the masses, and make it extremely difficult not to lose your ship in PVP zones.

"You ALL are WRONG", but I still believe in you!!

Defend your FREE ticket folks, your EASY pass... it's all fake anyway! ... it has killed this game.

ONCE AGain.....

I can buy Characters, I can buy GEAR, I can buy anything is this game with real life money..... ANYTHING without earning it!!!! If I suck at playing, I CAN Buy a better player to do it for me........ If I amass Billions, which most lifers do.... I don't have to Pay anymore, or I wonder why should I pay?

If you don't use PLEX, then you are contibuting. If you use PLEX you are a cheat and a user....plain and simple... is that clear enough!

Let's play chess, I will just buy as many Queens as I can afford to kick your tail...... I will just PLEX it ! If I suck at chess but still want to win, I will hire a better player or buy a computer!! When the bills are due for the rental of the chess board, I will just defer the cost to the other players, but demand the same game play because I am somehow helping in the long run by being wonderful.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2013-06-28 01:09:26 UTC
******* GD ******* mororn ******* stupid
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#155 - 2013-06-28 01:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Franco Stein
Casirio wrote:
******* GD ******* mororn ******* stupid



Another example of a well educated soul who uses too big of words to comprehend...




PS... I never thought Trolling could be so much fun!!!
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2013-06-28 01:16:27 UTC
I like your chess analogy, actually. Here's the secret to beating someone at chess who can afford more queens than you in a P2W situation: get the **** up and walk away.

o7m8
Franco Stein
Doomheim
#157 - 2013-06-28 01:21:30 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I like your chess analogy, actually. Here's the secret to beating someone at chess who can afford more queens than you in a P2W situation: get the **** up and walk away.

o7m8



Thank you.... but i am off work now and I am done trolling you all..

I totally USE PLEX to sub all my accounts, why in the world would I pay for them?
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2013-06-28 01:33:31 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I like your chess analogy, actually. Here's the secret to beating someone at chess who can afford more queens than you in a P2W situation: get the **** up and walk away.

o7m8



Thank you.... but i am off work now and I am done trolling you all..

I totally USE PLEX to sub all my accounts, why in the world would I pay for them?


Because you have a job that isn't minimum wage bottomfeeding, and your hourly rate irl is worth more than the time invested to farm the ISK for a PLEX? :)
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#159 - 2013-06-28 01:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Six Six Six
Franco Stein wrote:

I thought I was over it, but you keep just making mistakes over and over and have a tremendously warped (pun intended) understanding of FAIR Gaming and Game play that is designed to be unfair..

LET ME MAKE THIS VERY CLEAR....

ADDING even ONE Cent to a game using REAL money for any GEAR or Character Advantage PERIOD is cheating, when another player has to skill or EARN it in game. The advantage goes to the person who just Bought it... if the advantage is time, then they get it.. if the advantage is the ability to control a market, then they get it.... if the advantage is to just sit in a stupid ship and be a big shot in local, then they get it..... not by merit, but buying it... .. Real MONEY should only be added for additional content, not advantage! if you think PLEX doesn't equal advantage then you're just stupid and need to go back to school and study, or you just focus on ONE part of the game and that's how cool your gang is.


It's CCPs game, I think I'll leave it to CCP to decide what is cheating and what is not. As CCP allows it it's not cheating. You're so hung up on this time advantage, but this game's been going for 10 years, older characters already have a huge advantage in this respect. So it really doesn't matter that much. If it was a game that had just been released I might even agree with you in part but it's not.


Franco Stein wrote:

Second.... If you think paying for your personal Subscription using PLEX bought with FAKE money is "YOU" contributing to the game developers pockets, you are WRONG... but, you blowing up the guy who got suckered into buying the PLEX with RL money is in FACT helping CCP... so more power to you!! But "YOU" like so many others who are fighting for PLEX not for the sake of what is right, but for what is FREE or easy!!!! CCP doesn't need YOU to help them blow ships up, they can just make NPC's harder, or do what they have already done and remove PVP for the masses, and make it extremely difficult not to lose your ship in PVP zones.


They are contributing to the developers pockets, they provide isk that is used to buy PLEX, allowing CCP to be able to sell the PLEX which generates currency for CCP whilst keeping currency out of the hands of RMTers. So they're actually contributing in a very positive way.


Franco Stein wrote:

"You ALL are WRONG", but I still believe in you!!

Defend your FREE ticket folks, your EASY pass... it's all fake anyway! ... it has killed this game.


I just did in the statement I made above this one.


Franco Stein wrote:

ONCE AGain.....

I can buy Characters, I can buy GEAR, I can buy anything is this game with real life money..... ANYTHING without earning it!!!! If I suck at playing, I CAN Buy a better player to do it for me........ If I amass Billions, which most lifers do.... I don't have to Pay anymore, or I wonder why should I pay?

If you don't use PLEX, then you are contibuting. If you use PLEX you are a cheat and a user....plain and simple... is that clear enough!


I always pay a sub and I've purchased PLEX from CCP in the past, so by your definition that makes me a contributing cheat. Well coming from you, I think I could live with that.


Franco Stein wrote:

Let's play chess, I will just buy as many Queens as I can afford to kick your tail...... I will just PLEX it ! If I suck at chess but still want to win, I will hire a better player or buy a computer!! When the bills are due for the rental of the chess board, I will just defer the cost to the other players, but demand the same game play because I am somehow helping in the long run by being wonderful.


I see you're still trying to make a mountain out of that molehill.
Sir Mack Inawrex
NEW ORDER DEATH DEALERS
#160 - 2013-06-28 02:16:28 UTC
Franco Stein wrote:
I think the issues is your definition of winning folks.

Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!

Winning in this game could mean all or none of the following and is certainly effected by RL Money being added to buy earned game items instead of actually earning them or buying them in game from earned efforts.... piracy, trading, whatever?

1) Seed money to trade with= I am a master trader, all I need is a few billion ISK to control my market... let's PLEX it.
2) False value of time vs reward vs risk: My Tengu will cost me one hour of work time, let's role!!! I'll Just PLEX it.
3) Serious advantage in PVE game play of ALL sorts. With Plex I can buy ORCA's, Miners, Storming missions, etc..etc.
4) Legitimately beating a high score (personal or group).... in all areas of the game!

If all you think winning is .... surrounds blowing up another players rig... well, no one can help you.....

Why do you care if someone defines winning as simply PLEXing their way to victory? You said it yourself: "Winning doesn't mean Blowing up another players ship, exclusively!" You cite examples of alternative goals for players, goals that players set for themselves. Why do you care if they can take a shortcut? Why do you care that someone achieves their goals in a different way to you?

You've just openly stated that a player can set pretty much any goal in this sandbox MMO, but also sit there complaining that people can achieve those goals in ways you don't agree with. Your arguments are weird and confusing.

"…but now only one beacon of light survives.  A stubborn world that dared to defy Mintchip, Lord of the Lollipops."