Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Problem: Missile Launcher skills are oddly designed compared to Gunnery Turret Skills. This poor design actually makes gunnery turret SP far more valuable and effective than missile launcher SP.

Explanation: When training projectile turrets you start off with small projectile turrets. This skill allows you to use small autocannons and small artillery. In order to train medium projectile turrets you need to train small projectile turrets to 3. in order to train large projectile turrets you need to train medium projectile turrets to 3. This is a stepped progression based system.

In order to specialize in a T2 gun you need all the equivalent sized and smaller base skill trained to V and you need the smaller spec trained to IV. For example to train medium Autocannons you need small and medium projectile turret V and small autocannon spec IV in order to train medium autocannon spec.

This isn't true when dealing with missiles. There is no small missile launcher skill. Instead there is rockets and light missiles. In order to get that same effectiveness as one would get with the small projectile turret skill (being able to use both small autocannons and small artillery) I would need to train TWO skills. This takes far longer.

Because missile launcher SP takes longer to train to an equivalent effectiveness, gunnery turret SP is actually far more valuable and effective than missile launcher SP. There isn't any good reason/benefit to Eve that I can see for this inequality to exist. If you find one please post below.

Proposed Solution #1: Make specialization beneficial (dream system)
SR = short ranged = Rockets, HAMs, torps and autocannons
LR = long ranged = light missiles, heavy missiles, and artillery

Several people down below pointed out that it would be nice to have a system where specializing is actually beneficial. This is a three part solution: First split the gunnery skill in to two skills. For example take Large Projectile Turret and split it in to Large Autocannon and Large Artillery skills. The second part of the solution is to change most of the smaller sized prereqs from the larger sized turrets to make them similar to how missiles currently work (with a small tweak). The third part of the solution is to set the SP it takes to train missile skills to the same it takes to train gunnery skills.

How the solution would play out:
Small SR 5 -> small SR spec
Small SR 3 -> medium SR 5 -> medium SR spec
Small SR 3 -> medium SR 3 -> large SR 5 -> large SR spec

Do it again for long range. Now the training times would be about half of what they are currently, but if you wish to specialize in the future it will be quicker. Think ~9-10 days to pick up Large SR or large LR instead of ~18-20 for both.

Proposed solution #2: slightly less effective, but rectifies the skill point difference.
1. Unify Rockets and Light Missiles in to Small Missile Launcher skill. Take Heavy Missiles and HAM and unify them in to Medium Missile Launcher skill. Take Cruise Missiles and Torpedos and unify them in to Large Missile Launcher skill. Combine Citadel Torpedos and Citadel Cruise Missiles in to Capital Missile Launcher skill. Set training time, prereqs, and SP to equal same sized turret skill.

2. Modify the specializations in order to require the previous sized spec to IV. The progression would be (short ranged): Rockets -> HAMs -> Torps. Long Rage would be Light Missiles -> Heavy Missiles -> Cruise Missiles. Again set training time, prereqs, and SP equal to same sized turret spec skill.

3. Do the database market wizardry to replace old skill books and seed the new ones. Then refund excess SP.

Questions/comments post below. Also feel free to +1 this and hope that CCP Ytterbium, CCP Fozzie and CCP Rise see this and can fix it.

pity reply

I updated my second post with some numbers to make it more clear as to just how much extra training is needed to be just as effective as someone who trained a gunnery turret to V.

I am not trying to say they need to progress absolutely the same. I agree that there should be some differences. Good luck getting drones to follow something like this. For someone to be as effective with missiles as a turret they need to train twice as long I think there is something wrong.

Would you like to train both Large Autocannons Turrets and Large Artillery Turrets to V (would be 2304k SP) instead of just training Large Projectile Turrets to V (with small and medium to V also is 2304k SP)? That is the boat Missile users are in. Same effort to be less effective.

You could take away all 6 of the Missile launcher skills and specializations, replace them with the new skill books and specializations, and then refund the total SP. If you want to get back to using T2 Cruise missiles you have to train the skills over again using the refunded SP.

Or you could do what CCP did with the Ship skill rebalanced and pull a "if you could use it before you can use it after" then just refund the excess SP.

Some ideas. There are other ways. I would leave the best way up to CCP to figure out.

Yes the missile skill tree is longer. And this is balanced by being able to enter it at different points. A classic case of different but balanced.

But it isn't balanced in its current state. How is taking twice as long to be just as effective balanced? Choose between getting every skill needed in half the time or being selective and having to train twice as long. Who in their right mind would take that deal? You would be almost criminally incompetent to take the missiles side of that deal. Why not fix it and take half the time to train EVERY skill?

Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris, You argue for quicker specialization but it isn't quicker in its current state. Specializing in Cruise and Torps takes just as long as it would to train all the skills for a turret. I agree that your system would be best under the condition that it takes the same amount of training. 9-10 days for a large Autocannon or Large Artillery instead of 18-20 for both would be fantastic. Especially if you never use one or the other and can choose not to train it. Make missiles take the same amount of time to train and we have a deal. I will add this idea to the OP.

Malcanis, being different doesn't mean it is wrong.

What is wrong with this picture is how imbalanced the effort is for the reward. Why does it take twice as long to be just as effective? Specialization is a pretty dead argument because there is no benefit to specialization in its current state. Take a look at the OP in a few minutes to see my shot at a system where specialization is actually beneficial.

I'd have to side with people who are saying, that the only thing needing change is to make gun specialization work like missile specialization. It just makes more sense. I'm not a fan of the changes proposed in the OP though. Missiles are nothing like guns, so it's not exactly unreasonable to have them and their support skills follow a different skilling path in some respects. It could be changed, but I don't feel it needs to.

How are missiles and turrets not the same? They both have an object that propels the the munition at the target. Both of them have optimal and tracking (flight time/velocity and explosion velocity and explosion radius). Even their support skills can be mapped almost 1 -1 to each other (No missile version of controlled bursts due to missiles not needing cap). Both have short and long rage variants. Once you take away the words missile and turret they are almost EXACTLY the same.

Also, you all are getting stuck on how skill trees work. I agree that turrets should act the same as missiles and updated the OP with a system to do that. However, I have yet to hear a good reason as to why it takes twice as long to train missiles as it does to train turrets. The way it works right now is you are actually penalized for specializing. That is the issue I am trying to fix. however to fix the issue and not create a new imbalance one or the other systems needs to change.

But it doesn't take less time to train Cruise Missiles V. it take just as long as it would to train Large Projectile turrets to V. So you get 2 weapon systems (large autos and large arty) whereas missile users only get Cruise Missiles for the same amount of training time. If it took less time to train I would be here arguing for gunnery to follow missiles skill tree because it would then be imbalanced towards favoring missiles.

The current system is you are penalized for specializing while benefit from generalization. I want to change both of those so you benefit from specialization and it takes just as long as it does currently to generalize. Under the first system proposed in the OP you only stand to gain because gunnery gain the ability to specialize and missiles will no longer be penalized for specializing. It is pure win-win.

It takes 73 days to get T2 torpedoes to level 5 (no supports).

It takes 126.5 days to get T2 large Blasters to level 5 (no supports).

Personally I've never seen a problem, they're just different.