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Legion small gang pvp
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Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-06-26 11:10:13 UTC
I checked out this site to see what people had come up with http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Legion

One legion was at 794DPS, 110k EHP overheating
Then there were the neut legions

And then I tried to make my own so let me know what you think. All the stats are with overheating

[afterburner laser]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactor Control Unit II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Afterburner II
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Warp Scrambler

Medium Nosferatu II
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Nosferatu II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

2161 m/s speed but bad agility of 31
small sig radius 154
485 DPS
78k EHP
64 gj/s enemy capacitor neutralizing. Cap stable once the opponent is cap neutralized and I can use the neuts less

Can close quick, stay in range and kill frigates unlike the HAM which struggle against small sigs

But if Im going to be killing frigs Id rather

[MWD laser]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Warp Scrambler

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Nosferatu II
Medium Nosferatu II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

5023 m/s speed, bad agility of 31 but will be able to catch things to make use of its short range and then web/destab the enemy. but can be destabbed in return ruining its speed unlike the first afterburner build. Also not cap stable unlike AB build. Also big sig radius
485 DPS
75k EHP
47 Gj/s cap neutralizing

[AB HAM]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II

100MN Afterburner II
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Warp Scrambler

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Nosferatu II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

Legion Defensive - Adaptive Augmenter
Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

worst at frig killing than the lasers. But packs more neut, DPS. If I can get in range I think the cap neutralizing should make up for the problems doing DPS to small sig sizes
2161 m/s agility of 31
580dps
71k ehp
91 Gj/s cap neutralizing


[MWD HAM]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Reactor Control Unit II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Warp Scrambler

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Medium Energy Neutralizer II
Medium Nosferatu II
Medium Nosferatu II

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Energy Parasitic Complex
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


The fastest of the bunch 5495 m/s slightly less terrible agility of 26.
516 DPS
47 gj/s cap neutralizing
75k EHP


Those probably all seem terrible to you guys. For me, i cant decide between them. 5000 + m/s MWD sounds like fun but 2000m/s AB with more stability has its merits too

Missiles vs lasers have their merits
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-26 11:30:26 UTC
do you even understand what the point of a 100mn fit is?

Art of Explosions
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#3 - 2013-06-26 14:32:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Caius Sivaris
Ciyrine wrote:
I checked out this site to see what people had come up with http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Legion


I forgot that eve-u was well known for its Legion gangs raping everything in sight... My bad...

Seriously, if you have to take inspiration from someone, why not make that someone competent (hint: Snuff Box, Verge of Collapse)


Tsukino Stareine wrote:
do you even understand what the point of a 100mn fit is?


He obviously never even tried to fly anything with an oversized speed mod. Pro tip: they don't mix with short range weapon systems...

The workhorse legion (flown with a pair of Guardians or more) is usually something like that. HAM and neut versions are a lot more specialized...

[Legion, Buffer 6G2HS]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink

Republic Fleet 10MN Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Warp Disruptor II

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Scorch M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump I

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Liquid Crystal Magnifiers
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#4 - 2013-06-26 16:26:34 UTC
Boy, here's a strong advice if you EVER want to EFT your own fits. Read the module descriptions and compare them to other modules of the same type.

And the 100mn MWD Legion is basically not practicable anymore after the Heavy Missile Range nerf, implying it was ever practicable before...
Skelee VI
Appetite 4 Destruction
#5 - 2013-06-26 16:42:04 UTC
No drone legion? You haven't really explained what you are doing with this legion.
Are you soloing nobbs in frigs? You got back up?
One good neut on the 100mn version and you are done!
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#6 - 2013-06-26 18:03:14 UTC
Dear OP.... are you drunk?
oversized mwd fit to chase frigates. rofl. Nice cap stability ;) Caps itself dry probably before the 3rd mwd cycle if anything else is active.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-06-26 18:10:28 UTC
I tried some drones but was able to get slightly better dps without them. While avoiding the hassle of them getting popped by the enemy

The topic title was more intended to explain thats its legion small gang pvp. I dont know what else will be flying with me besides this

I love how all these pros hint at hidden legion knowledge and spit on eveuni fits. Its better legion fit info than ive gotten in 5 pages in 2 legion topics ive started.

As for 100mn. Theres the group that say 100mn is too unweildy so u cant use it with short range weapons. To which i ask. Can i speed at 5500m/s towards the target. Once within range. Web and neut them so their slow. Turn off the mwd gaining my agility back. One person mentioned using 100mn then switching to 10mn at close range. Any problem with this?
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#8 - 2013-06-26 18:12:34 UTC
Don't use isk to try and patch over your skill hole, it doesn't work.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Whitehound
#9 - 2013-06-26 18:13:13 UTC
An interesting way to give someone a T3 killmail and make yourself lose skillpoints in the process.

You are gambling and hope to find a sitting duck somewhere, perhaps a miner. All it needs is a group of pilots who are on guard and have been flying together for a while.

These "high speed ganking" fittings with questionable resistances and the inertia of a sponge are desperate and thoughtless. You list the eHP values, but with the resistance holes do these become meaningless the moment you get hit on them. Nor does your inertia allow for mistakes. Your approach has to be right the first time or you will shoot past your targets or come too short, in which case your tracking will fail or you will be sitting in your falloff, and all the DPS will be of little consequence. There is too much that can go wrong with flying such fits and it will be an avoidable loss. Could be fun though. Lol

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Rengerel en Distel
#10 - 2013-06-26 18:24:37 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
I tried some drones but was able to get slightly better dps without them. While avoiding the hassle of them getting popped by the enemy

The topic title was more intended to explain thats its legion small gang pvp. I dont know what else will be flying with me besides this

I love how all these pros hint at hidden legion knowledge and spit on eveuni fits. Its better legion fit info than ive gotten in 5 pages in 2 legion topics ive started.

As for 100mn. Theres the group that say 100mn is too unweildy so u cant use it with short range weapons. To which i ask. Can i speed at 5500m/s towards the target. Once within range. Web and neut them so their slow. Turn off the mwd gaining my agility back. One person mentioned using 100mn then switching to 10mn at close range. Any problem with this?


Perhaps instead of making countless posts about every ship you're dreaming of flying in a year, you can start with something like frigates, and figure out how modules and ships actually work.

Then, when you're ready for your small gang or solo null carrier ratting, you'll have a better idea of what you need to fit, and will just be looking for tweaks from more experienced players.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-06-26 18:27:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
An interesting way to give someone a T3 killmail and make yourself lose skillpoints in the process.

You are gambling and hope to find a sitting duck somewhere, perhaps a miner. All it needs is a group of pilots who are on guard and have been flying together for a while.

These "high speed ganking" fittings with questionable resistances and the inertia of a sponge are desperate and thoughtless. You list the eHP values, but with the resistance holes do these become meaningless the moment you get hit on them. Nor does your inertia allow for mistakes. Your approach has to be right the first time or you will shoot past your targets or come too short, in which case your tracking will fail or you will be sitting in your falloff, and all the DPS will be of little consequence. There is too much that can go wrong with flying such fits and it will be an avoidable loss. Could be fun though. Lol


So a group of pilots can beat the legion. This is true for every ship in the game

Why am i gambling on a sitting target? Why cant a 5500m/s legion engage moving targets when slower boats with short range weapons can?

Inertia of a sponger. Are u saying that they accel/decel slow or just that they turn slow? Would turning off the 100mn and turning on the 10mn work? I dont have experience how a ship using this technique performs.

As for resistance holes. With strong neut, decent dps, awesome speed. Something had to give. 75k eho may not blow peoples minds but considering sig size and speed its not too bad from comparing ehp of other ships ive seen posted
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#12 - 2013-06-26 18:34:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Floydy
100mn ab nano fit tengus (before they got a bit of a nerf with the HML changes) were hard work to fly due to lacking agility - you'd have to judge the approach just right if you wanted to get a point on the target. The tengu got away with this in a gang as you'd leave tackle for another.

Switch around to the Legion - It'll be armour tanked- so you'll have no nano. It'll handle like a bus - I doubt it would even hit 5km/s on the 100mn mwd before running out of cap due to how bad the agility is. Plus you'd overshoot your enemy and they'd get away. You'd not have the cap to fire you're laser, plus they'd probably get poor quality hits due to your overspeed.
If you are HAM fit - you'll overshoot and probably be out of range too much. I can not think of a situation where a 100mn mwd would be good - beyond a practical joke on someone.
The 100mn makes the ship accelerate, slow down and turn slow. Not just turning.

Oversized prop mod and neuts is a terrible idea without cap boosters. Don't think it's a great idea even with them....

100mn AB HAM Brick fits can work I believe - I've briefly tried one myself on Sisi - and again it handled like a bus. Luckily I had enemies trying to shoot me so coming into range. The oversized ab is mostly for escaping.

As to actual working fits. The one Caius Sivaris is a good basis, I fly similar in a gang - trimark rigs and no web. It's a nice ship.
Alternatively try something like this if you really want to use a 100mn prop mod. Bear in mind it's for escaping, don't use it during a fight unless you really have to. In an ideal situation with a gang you're mates can get a tackle, you get into range and apply dps. If things go badly, you overheat the AB and burn out of range and escape:

[Legion, HAM]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Warp Scrambler II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


You can swap to the chassis optimisation subsystem, put in a 10mn mwd, swap out a BCU for another 1600mm plate if you want something with insane ehp.
Skelee VI
Appetite 4 Destruction
#13 - 2013-06-26 18:48:35 UTC
I have killed many a 100mn ab tengu , I don't see why you can't kill a legion . One curse will put stop!
If you have support I say go for it in the legion. All you need is a fast tackler, the legion and a falcon for gtfo!
If you are planning on being in web range i'd say the hams will tear ships apart.
Whitehound
#14 - 2013-06-26 19:28:51 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
So a group of pilots can beat the legion. This is true for every ship in the game

This is not the point. Many will try to go for the T3, because it makes such a nice killmail, a nice bounty and/or good loot.

Propulsion mods have a cycle time during which they give their speed gain. Just turning them off will not instantly slow you down or return your inertia to normal, but the cycle first has to end. Even when you brake manually is it not a full stop, but it is a descent. This makes it difficult to estimate the distance at which you come out. Webs then do not stop ships instantly and always leaves them a chance to coast out of range. Being too fast, too inert, too imprecise makes this only harder to control. This is why I say it is like a sponge and your best chance is with a sitting target. But please do give it a try and see for yourself.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-06-26 19:49:47 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Ciyrine wrote:
So a group of pilots can beat the legion. This is true for every ship in the game

This is not the point. Many will try to go for the T3, because it makes such a nice killmail, a nice bounty and/or good loot.

Propulsion mods have a cycle time during which they give their speed gain. Just turning them off will not instantly slow you down or return your inertia to normal, but the cycle first has to end. Even when you brake manually is it not a full stop, but it is a descent. This makes it difficult to estimate the distance at which you come out. Webs then do not stop ships instantly and always leaves them a chance to coast out of range. Being too fast, too inert, too imprecise makes this only harder to control. This is why I say it is like a sponge and your best chance is with a sitting target. But please do give it a try and see for yourself.


Im told the great killmail comment about most of the higher end ships yet people fly them in gangs.

Great response about the nature of web/mwd trying to land in ur optimal ranges. I do understand what ur saying but i believe i can factor in my deceleration, cycle times of the mwd, deceleration of opponent from webs.

Im also thinking about a pvp group using 100mn mwd + webs on each other. As in i target my friend and he targets me with web to make a sharper stop. Just an idea might not work or may not be necessary.

What does offlining the 100mwd at the right time and/or switching to 10mn ab to fix my agility/deceleration do for my ability sliw down on a dime?
How2FoldSoup
Hull Tanking Elitists
#16 - 2013-06-27 01:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: How2FoldSoup
After reading this thread and the other thread that you've made I see no reason why to attempt to help.In both threads you ask for advice and when people give you (very sane) advice about how what you're doing is a bad idea. Then you shrug it off and continue asking if anyone else has any ideas. But I'll give it a go.

If you truly want some good advice here's what to do:

#1 Drop that awful legion fit and don't even start with oversized prop mods. You clearly don't have much pvp experience and starting in a t3, in addition to a fit like that, is laughable. I'm not trying to be insulting but I would be laughing pretty hard If i got a kill like that.

#2 If you want to start pvping the best advice anyone can give you(you will find this all over the forums) is to go out and buy 50 t1 frigates. Fit them however you want, you will learn how to fit them better as time goes on. So do yourself a favor and spend only a fraction of what you would be spending on the t3 in ships that you will actually learn something in and go fly it out into lowsec or fw.

#3 If you feel like being a jackass then use that fit and fly around in your nearest low or nullsec area and prepare to be the laughing stock of the day for the corp. Feel free to do this because even though I may not get the kill whoever does will have their day made.

Soup

Edit: Grammar
Whitehound
#17 - 2013-06-27 08:43:26 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
What does offlining the 100mwd at the right time and/or switching to 10mn ab to fix my agility/deceleration do for my ability sliw down on a dime?

Nothing. It will not abort the cycle, but it may set your capacitor size back to normal (it will not fill it up though). It becomes dead weight and you cannot turn it back online unless you have a 95% capacitor load, which means you will have to dock before you can use it again.

Do not forget while you consider all your options here that one can use web and scram not only offensively, but defensively as well.

You may think "Hey, I just web and scram my target and then I have caught it." but this is wrong. What works for you works for it as well. A kiter fits scram and web not to tackle you, but to slow you down as a means of defence for it to stay at its distance. In your case would the kiter's web do little, because you are way too fast, but this is also its rescue, because all it needs to do is stop and watch you drift past.

All this speed and manoeuvring at close range will be bad for your DPS, because your tracking is not meant for it. Do some simple math. Take a Heavy Pulse Laser II, look up its optimal and tracking and multiply both:

With Conflagration M: 11.3km * 0.0711 rad/s = 803 rad*m/s
With Multifrequency M: 11.3km * 0.102 rad/s = 1152.6 rad*m/s

The speeds you get are the limits for the speed difference between you and your target at which your DPS will drop below 50%, because of tracking issues. If your target then flies 500 m/s while you approach with 5000 m/s, and you web your target down to 250 m/s will the speed difference be far too high. You would need a four times higher tracking only to apply half your DPS, or hope your target runs off in a straight line, is not aligned and cannot warp and is basically as bad at piloting as you are (not that you have much of a chance with an over-sized mod to do anything about it).

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#18 - 2013-06-27 08:56:02 UTC
How2FoldSoup wrote:
After reading this thread and the other thread that you've made I see no reason why to attempt to help.In both threads you ask for advice and when people give you (very sane) advice about how what you're doing is a bad idea. Then you shrug it off and continue asking if anyone else has any ideas.


This is basically Ciyrine in a nutshell.
Swordfingers
The Swollen Horse Society
#19 - 2013-06-27 10:05:49 UTC
Dude, stop. Really, get the idea of T3 or even T2 ships out of your head. Jut buy a bunch of nano omens or stabbers and lose a few dozens of those. If nothing else it should teach you the basics, like how module activation cycles and moving ships work.
Ryuce
#20 - 2013-06-27 15:31:32 UTC
Ohh look a succesfull troll.
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