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Specialized Low - Sec / Null - Sec mining ships
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Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#1 - 2013-06-26 11:44:21 UTC
There's been a lot of grief going around about Null - sec wanting High - sec to come into Null - sec, and yet most of the grief seems to be conveniently skipping over 2 important facts:

-Firstly: There's no way in hell that high-sec peeps are going to leave their comfort zone and come into the null-sec comfort zones, especially since null-sec comfort zones have lots of guns and lots of experienced people who know how to use them.

You can't just expect high - sec people to root up and leave and go to a whole new dangerous area they aren't equipped to handle. Its not about fairness, its about competition. What kind of competition does a defenseless Hulk offer? While I'm sure that there are several people who are griefers and trolls who just want to make quick ISK, I'm sure there are more PvPers who actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt and not just the ISK.

- Secondly: Even if miners wanted to come to Null - sec, we don't really have a ship option that wouldn't be completely destroyed. All our ships are basically paper thin, even the T2 versions. Really the only chance of us going to null - sec is with a big PvP back-up, which sure, would make you PvPers more money, but it gives us less profit.

When you combine that with the fact that losing a Hulk would sink you between 200 - 300 million ISK and loosing an orca would sink you around 600mil, there's very little motivation for us to come there. Sure, there are rarer minerals, but those are already contest by people who do have PvP back-up, so it makes more sense for us to just sit and mindlessly grind away at High - sec rocks.

So what is the solution? Simple, just give us a ship that would be able to at least moderately withstand PvP. I'm not talking about an uber shield or armor tanked ship, but maybe something along the lines of blockade runners or something like that. That way people could stop griefing about High - sec being full of carebears, when in reality, the issue is that we don't have the logistical support to go to null-sec. Or at least, it would make their griefing more valid.

2 specialized industrial ships, like a Covetor - class and a Hulk - class, that has better tank and maneuvering, but gives up cargohold space or mining yield. This would give High-sec miners two good choices for venturing into Null - sec and Low - sec. One ship will be the T1 version, so its cheap and not a big deal to lose, and the T2 version for people who feel more secure in their skills in Low/Null - sec.

This wouldn't dramatically effect people who already have PvP back-up, they would still use their Hulks and what not, but at least for the majority of corporations that don't have PvP back-up it would allow them to organize some low-level mining operations in Low/Null - sec.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#2 - 2013-06-26 11:51:47 UTC
I wasn't aware nullsec wanted highsec to go to nullsec. I thought nullsec wanted highsec to be pathetically spacepoor forever and quit the game entirely. Something about "carebear trash" and "highsec themepark-loving shitlords" and etc.
Lakitel
4.20ly Mining Range
#3 - 2013-06-26 11:56:45 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I wasn't aware nullsec wanted highsec to go to nullsec. I thought nullsec wanted highsec to be pathetically spacepoor forever and quit the game entirely. Something about "carebear trash" and "highsec themepark-loving shitlords" and etc.



Well then take your head out of your ass and try and keep up with the news. You need high-sec, deal with it you mindless drone.

Also, I'm not interested in a flame war with you. But thanks for bumping my thread anyway :)
Deryn Angrard
Lightning Squad
Snuffed Out
#4 - 2013-06-26 12:26:12 UTC
I don't say anything about where people should be mining, but there are procurer and skiff which are awesome for low-sec mining. Mining fleets that have BC or 2 protecting, procurer can survive long enough for the support to start hurting the attacker. Of course you are dead if you don't have protection or it is too weak.

You don't need new barges for low/null mining, but you need to have someone protecting the fleet.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#5 - 2013-06-26 12:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Lakitel wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I wasn't aware nullsec wanted highsec to go to nullsec. I thought nullsec wanted highsec to be pathetically spacepoor forever and quit the game entirely. Something about "carebear trash" and "highsec themepark-loving shitlords" and etc.



Well then take your head out of your ass and try and keep up with the news. You need high-sec, deal with it you mindless drone.

Also, I'm not interested in a flame war with you. But thanks for bumping my thread anyway :)

It's interesting that you start slinging insults and making assumptions when my post wasn't even written that way. I happen to live in highsec and be the CEO of my own corporation specifically because to hell with the Nullsec Machine, but thanks for calling me a mindless drone anyway.

Deryn Angrard wrote:
but you need to have someone protecting the fleet.

In the game that CCP balances ships for, this kind of thing actually happens. In the game that we actually play, this kind of concept is a myth and virtually never happens. The ships we already have will do just fine if they're re-balanced around the reality that exists rather than the nonexistent reality they're currently designed for.
Aurora Fatalis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-06-26 13:49:49 UTC
It really doesn't matter how much tank your mining ships have. If you're going in without people to defend the ships, you're going down sooner or later anyway. The Venture already exists for low-risk low sec mining with its warp core strength, and the Procurer for those who have a BC or two supporting, something you'll need to take care of the BS rats that spawn. 40k EHP on a Procurer is more than enough for something like that - and it's actually a lot more than Blockade Runners have. You could even fit warp core stabs and ECM to your miners and jam the enemy while you warp out.

Or you could just join a null alliance with your mining corp, and mine in sov?

Now to make fun of you.

Quote:
You can't just expect high - sec people to root up and leave and go to a whole new dangerous area they aren't equipped to handle.
Then how do you explain that there are people in null sec? Nobody started their game there, they all left high sec at some point. They hardened the **** up and accepted they would lose a lot of stuff.

Quote:
Even if miners wanted to come to Null - sec, we don't really have a ship option that wouldn't be completely destroyed.
Noone does. To paraphrase Arya Stark, anything can be killed. Even large alliances lose large fleets on a semi-regular basis. Why should miners be at less risk in null than everyone else? You already have the Venture, which comes pre-fitted with warp core stabs.

Quote:
So what is the solution? Simple, just give us a ship that would be able to at least moderately withstand PvP.
If you're too bad at the game to warp out when the enemy lands, use Mining Drones in an Arbitrator or Vexor, and defend yourself by switching drones.

Quote:
2 specialized industrial ships, like a Covetor - class and a Hulk - class, that has better tank and maneuvering, but gives up cargohold space or mining yield. This would give High-sec miners two good choices for venturing into Null - sec and Low - sec. One ship will be the T1 version, so its cheap and not a big deal to lose, and the T2 version for people who feel more secure in their skills in Low/Null - sec.
It's almost like you don't know the Venture, Procurer and Skiff exist. The Venture has super maneuverability, and the Procurer/skiff a decent tank - and even drones! Both are dirt cheap. The Venture can even fit a cloak in its utility slot.

If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you?
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#7 - 2013-06-26 14:08:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
Lakitel wrote:
There's been a lot of grief going around about Null - sec wanting High - sec to come into Null - sec, and yet most of the grief seems to be conveniently skipping over 2 important facts:

-Firstly: There's no way in hell that high-sec peeps are going to leave their comfort zone and come into the null-sec comfort zones, especially since null-sec comfort zones have lots of guns and lots of experienced people who know how to use them.

You can't just expect high - sec people to root up and leave and go to a whole new dangerous area they aren't equipped to handle. Its not about fairness, its about competition. What kind of competition does a defenseless Hulk offer? While I'm sure that there are several people who are griefers and trolls who just want to make quick ISK, I'm sure there are more PvPers who actually enjoy the thrill of the hunt and not just the ISK.


I mine in nullsec. I use Procurers as do most people who don't want to lose lots of ships. I was mining one day when a cov ops hot dropper in a force recon came into system, warped to the belt and cyno'd in a Black Ops battleship and a couple of other ships with cov ops cloaks (only paid attention to the BlOps), which started attacking some other procurers in the belt. All the procurers in the belt then pointed the attacking ships, dropped drones and concertedly and forcefully killed them. True story.

You'd be amazed what a small fleet of correctly fitted Procurers can do. You'd also be amazed what a difference is made by miners that act in concert and don't panic. Procurer FTW!

Lakitel wrote:
- Secondly: Even if miners wanted to come to Null - sec, we don't really have a ship option that wouldn't be completely destroyed. All our ships are basically paper thin, even the T2 versions. Really the only chance of us going to null - sec is with a big PvP back-up, which sure, would make you PvPers more money, but it gives us less profit.

Procurer, Procurer, Procurer. It is NOT paper thin. It has a BS tank and a much smaller sig radius. That ship rocks! Oh, and it's only ~15mill.

Lakitel wrote:
When you combine that with the fact that losing a Hulk would sink you between 200 - 300 million ISK and loosing an orca would sink you around 600mil, there's very little motivation for us to come there. Sure, there are rarer minerals, but those are already contest by people who do have PvP back-up, so it makes more sense for us to just sit and mindlessly grind away at High - sec rocks.

Or you could do what those of us that mine in null sec did and stop being a recluse, stop using the most expensive ships and join a corp that promotes mining ops. You'll mine more in a Procurer with Rorqual boosts than in a Hulk with orca boosts, I think. If not more then pretty damned close.

Lakitel wrote:
So what is the solution? Simple, just give us a ship that would be able to at least moderately withstand PvP. I'm not talking about an uber shield or armor tanked ship, but maybe something along the lines of blockade runners or something like that. That way people could stop griefing about High - sec being full of carebears, when in reality, the issue is that we don't have the logistical support to go to null-sec. Or at least, it would make their griefing more valid.

Procurer, Procurer, Procurer! A million times Procurer! The ship you're after is already in the game. It happens to be the cheapest of the mining ships other than the frigate, which is nice. Only takes one strip miner so that brings the overall cost down too.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#8 - 2013-06-26 14:24:09 UTC
^ THIS ^

Any miner that doesn't have a Procurer or two really isn't trying
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#9 - 2013-06-26 14:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
My Procurer can easily get 60k+ EHP using a fit with a warp scrambler and web. It eats close range PvP frigates. I haven't tried using a Skiff yet... but using a similar fit you can get about 100k+ EHP with a bit more dps.... so I'm optimistic.

Get a logistics ship to sit and rep you and your mining fleet and both of the above ships become bricks that can hold their own against PvP ships.

How did you Veterans start?
Sorjat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-06-26 15:50:04 UTC
This discussion keeps going around and around...

Here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=252349&find=unread

Here:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=224545&find=unread

... and one I posted in:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3235252#post3235252

.. and of course this thread. Doubtless there are others.

I thought I would chip in a bit too to Lakitel's thread because it seemed the closest to what I was going to suggest.

Some background. I'm a solo miner who like most solo miner's is mostly confined to high-sec. I also mine wormholes because high-sec mining bores the living cr@p out of me! (I have literally fallen asleep at the KB and lost Retrivers to high-sec rats...) I like mining the evil rocks and I love dodging someone coming after my Venture in a Tengu! I find it intensely satisfying to know that your billion + ISK investment didn't catch my 1 mil ISK investment but I digress...

As I see it the real issue here is that the soloing miners are trapped in high sec because of the available ships. Over and over again I hear folks saying "join a mining corp"... Well I don't want to join your stinking corp! I'm a soloist. I hate meetings. I'm a casual player who plays games to get away from that cr@p! I also *really* hate being bossed around by some wannabe game CEO who has the towering ego of an actual CEO and has never left his momma's basement or got a real job. No thanks.

The other suggestion is to "use a Procurer in low or null sec"... This ship definitely has decent tank and good survivabilty odds against player attack. Its also relatively cheap. However using it to solo against battleship rats in low or null sec is not so good. Everyone says "when playing groups of Procurers in null they..." Group?? What group? I'm a soloist remember! I don't mind taking risks but if I have to run everytime a rat shows up (players are bad enough) then I lose the reward. No fun for me.

Wormhole space is the only viable solo miner's place outside of high-sec. Foremost reason is that the respawn rates on Sleepers is completely different from rats in low/null sec. You can clear them in a combat ship and come back again in a miner. Problem is that finding a viable C1/C2 to mine is time consuming as they are heavily occupied by... mining corps... and others. I have spent whole eveings searching and coming up with nothing. Patience does pay off but even then the rewards in a Venture are limited. Still it is far more entertaining than high-sec mining.

So to my knowledge no-one has suggested this before, but I've been wrong before... What I was thinking of was a new class of mining vessel. Its unique because unlike other suggestions for huge mining vessels, (ie: carriers and dreads), which will only attract bigger enemies... this one would be of the size of the cruiser-battlecruiser classes...

This ship is different because it would come in two pieces. There is 'ship' part and the 'ore compartment' part. When together, the ship would have all the maneoverability of the traditional mining barge. When you separate, (ie: drop your payload), your ship becomes a cruiser class warship. You can of course detach and re-attach whenever you want. Your 'detached' part is simply a big container in space. It could be picked up or destroyed by anyone but only another one of these 'specialized' mining vessels could grab it. If left alone, like any container it would decay after a time.

This ship is not a particularly good exhumer and when separated its not a paticularly spectacular warship either... So no large null sec mining corp would want it as they have fleets to protect their barges. There is also substantial risk to the pilots who fly it... going into null/low/w-space is like that but it offers the ability to survive and come back with a decent reward. It would certainly attract players like myself to use it. I seriously doubt it would disrupt Eve economics since I suspect it is driven far more by the larger groups of players rather than us solo flyers.

So to sum up here what I'm suggesting is a niche-solution to a niche problem. The status quo means that solo-mining for the most part remains a mostly high-sec operation and that most of the game space is out of bounds to you. The exclusive preserve of the 'groupies'.

You know for all the discussion going on I have yet to see a Dev wade into it. Cmon CCP, share your thoughts!

Insanity is not hubris, not pride; it is inflation of the ego to its ultimate - confusion between him who worships and that which is worshipped. Man has not eaten God; God has eaten man.

-- PKD
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#11 - 2013-06-27 04:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
@Sorjat

Saying "I don't wanna" when someone suggests you join a nullsec mining corp in a Massively Multiplayer game does not constitute a good reason for introducing a new all singing, all dancing mining ship that can take on BSs solo.

Your argument that WH ore site are better than Null because the spawn rate is different falls down in the face of my experience in that it's not. The spawn rate in null seems pretty much the same. On top of that, I've killed a BS rat in a solo procurer so your argument falls down there too.

What you're proposing, unless it can win against specialist war ships which would be unbalanced, would be no more use than a procurer as unless it can actually kill your oppontnt, which would be unbalanced, you'll still die in a fire and so as I said, no difference to a procurer.

Now, if you were in a group it might have a purpose but you're not and by the sounds of things you don't want to be.

For your information, not all nullsec corps make you go to meetings or dictate to you any more than high sec corps or npc corps, for that. Your negative impression is just that, an impression. It isn't accurate.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-06-27 06:38:51 UTC
Lakitel wrote:
There's been a lot of grief going around about Null - sec wanting High - sec to come into Null - sec, and yet most of the grief seems to be conveniently skipping over 2 important facts:

-Firstly: There's no way in hell that high-sec peeps are going to leave their comfort zone and come into the null-sec comfort zones, especially since null-sec comfort zones have lots of guns and lots of experienced people who know how to use them.


The only reason I'm even playing EvE is for crafting and trading. EvE has the most comprehensive crafting and trading system that can't be found in other MMOs. PvP I can just grind a WoW BG or play some BF rounds if need be. PvP is a dime a dozen in MMOs. The crafting and trading isn't and it's uniqueness is what attracts players, too.

So truly, nothing CCP can do that will entice me into blow up others in this game...as it's not the reason I came to play. They don't want PvE players, then just get rid of the market and crafting then. Otherwise, I'm playing the game as intended...and building and trade are "careers" in this game.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Sorjat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-06-27 13:42:20 UTC
@Tchulen,

Telling me that I have a negative impression about corp life is stating the obvious. Granted I have no experience with it in Eve. (In other MMO's absolutely). On the other hand, I do get to listen to you guys chat in local, various channels and of course on these boards. I think I will stick with my own opinion and play the way that entertains me the most.

That being said then why discuss rebalancing these ships? If you are an active corp member mining null sec then you have the protection of your corp mates. Your reccomending the status quo and the current fleet of mining ships works just fine for that purpose.

As for your assertion that the ship I proposed is unbalanced... I dont' think so. First off, corporate players wouldn't want it. It wouldn't do the volume the existing ships do and as for PvP combat it is very limited. It offers a bit more survivability and reward for those willing to explore. Reading over all the other threads everyone just wants 'bigger'. I don't think that will work because it invites a bigger response and doesn't address the issue.

Ratting with a Procurer? I haven't done it. I prefer using a Daredevil. I think I might try it though since you suggest it.

"The spawn rate in null seems pretty much the same". I mine the WH's not null. Once the sleepers are down they stay down for at least as long as I play in an evening. I think I will return to null and check this out because I don't believe you.

I think your first point is the most compelling. Why indeed create a ship to keep myself and a few others happy? Well, that is a CCP management thing. I pay fees too and my presence in the game keeps your fees down. That's one good reason. The other good reason is that with a better risk/reward balance it would encourage more players to get out of high-sec and play around in low and null.

Insanity is not hubris, not pride; it is inflation of the ego to its ultimate - confusion between him who worships and that which is worshipped. Man has not eaten God; God has eaten man.

-- PKD
Sorjat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-06-27 14:42:42 UTC
Quote from Lakitel:

So what is the solution? Simple, just give us a ship that would be able to at least moderately withstand PvP. I'm not talking about an uber shield or armor tanked ship, but maybe something along the lines of blockade runners or something like that. That way people could stop griefing about High - sec being full of carebears, when in reality, the issue is that we don't have the logistical support to go to null-sec. Or at least, it would make their griefing more valid.

++++

I totally agree with you. To my mind there are two parts of the equation. Risk and Reward. Right now, given the current fleet of available ships for mining (aside from the Venture), they present enormous risk for moderate reward. The Venture has mitigated this with moderate risk but tiny reward. (Very small ore hold). I still have a lot of fun with the Venture but it involves a lot of trips to make it worthwhile.

One other thing, I wouldn't worry too much about that put-down about 'carebears'. The folks who throw that around are the tough guys hanging out in gank fleets who call themselves 'tough' by being able to anihilate newbies. They engage only when they have aboslute certainty that they can take you down either alone or with their friends. If the fight even looks anywhere close to being 'fair' they run away.

Don't let the trolls get to you. Play the game any way you want to play it!

Insanity is not hubris, not pride; it is inflation of the ego to its ultimate - confusion between him who worships and that which is worshipped. Man has not eaten God; God has eaten man.

-- PKD
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#15 - 2013-06-28 05:42:46 UTC
Sorjat wrote:
@Tchulen,

Telling me that I have a negative impression about corp life is stating the obvious. Granted I have no experience with it in Eve. (In other MMO's absolutely). On the other hand, I do get to listen to you guys chat in local, various channels and of course on these boards. I think I will stick with my own opinion and play the way that entertains me the most.

I completely respect your right to play however you want. I'm not suggesting that you *have* to join a nullsec corp, just that if you joined the right corp you'd have a lot of fun with it.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of douche corps and douche people in nullsec. I'm not trying to suggest that they're all lovely friendly people out here. However, there are corps of helpful, friendly people and indeed alliances the same. It's not like everyone's a megalomaniac control freak.

Sorjat wrote:
That being said then why discuss rebalancing these ships? If you are an active corp member mining null sec then you have the protection of your corp mates. Your reccomending the status quo and the current fleet of mining ships works just fine for that purpose.

As for your assertion that the ship I proposed is unbalanced... I dont' think so. First off, corporate players wouldn't want it. It wouldn't do the volume the existing ships do and as for PvP combat it is very limited. It offers a bit more survivability and reward for those willing to explore. Reading over all the other threads everyone just wants 'bigger'. I don't think that will work because it invites a bigger response and doesn't address the issue.

Hmm.... This isn't strictly true for most people. Miners don't actively have protection in a lot of nullsec. Miners mine when no one suspicious is in system and dock up the second someone comes in, typically. Whilst it is possible to use a number of procurers to defend a mining fleet people generally only do it when they've failed to dock up or they know they have weight of numbers on their side. It's pretty much the same thing as combat. You generally don't go into a fight willingly knowing you're likely to lose.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm all for expanding on the mining profession. If there is a generally perceived need for a mining ship that has the ability to survive solo in nullsec whilst ninja mining beneath the noses of the corps who *own* the space then I'm all up for that being added. I just think that the line of mining ships we currently have is sufficient for all the purposes currently in the game. I'm more than up for debate on that though as I could easily be wrong.

Considering you're not proposing a ship that can win in combat, just a ship that's more survivable you could use one of two ships currently in the game. You could use a procurer with two WCS or you could use the mining frigate. Both have survivability, just in different ways. The Procurer with two WCS can escape being pointed, can tank and kill the rats (slowly) and can mine a decent amount. The mining frigate can escape being pointed and aligns in almost no time so can gtfo easily. I've used the mining frigate for solo ninja mining in other people's space in null and it works really well.

Sorjat wrote:
Ratting with a Procurer? I haven't done it. I prefer using a Daredevil. I think I might try it though since you suggest it.

"The spawn rate in null seems pretty much the same". I mine the WH's not null. Once the sleepers are down they stay down for at least as long as I play in an evening. I think I will return to null and check this out because I don't believe you.

I think your first point is the most compelling. Why indeed create a ship to keep myself and a few others happy? Well, that is a CCP management thing. I pay fees too and my presence in the game keeps your fees down. That's one good reason. The other good reason is that with a better risk/reward balance it would encourage more players to get out of high-sec and play around in low and null.

Now don't get me wrong, whilst I said the Procurer can tank the rats and kill them I didn't say it was quick. A daredevil will easily beat a Procurer on the ratting front but the procurer can mine whilst it's tanking and (slowly) killing the rats. I certainly wouldn't try to use it for actual ratting.

On the spawn rate, let me put it this way: in the last 7 days of mining I have seen rats in the sites on one day, once. I don't find the spawn rates to be very high at all. Mind you, I'm not mining in belts, I'm mining in sites in null as you are in WHs. The respawn rates in belts is significantly higher from what I've heard. I don't have any real experience with that though.

As I said, I don't mind and actively encourage CCP to expand the mining fleet in game if there is a genuine need and want for it from the players. I just think you're trying to fix your problem by creating something new where you could quite easily do what you want to do with assets which already exist in the game. Don't get me wrong, it's an interesting idea and these things are always worth discussion. It's also really early here so I might well have just made a completely gibberish post Big smile