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EVE Launcher - a comparison

First post
Author
Elvis Fett
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-06-25 16:50:04 UTC
I guess I am weird cause I dig the new launcher. It's nice not having to re-type my password 1000 times a day to switch characters. I don't know how anyone can say the old way of having to go to the login screen every time you switch characters is superior. I just wish I could have multiple instances of the launcher open, one for each account.

My only complaint is every once in awhile it bugs out. About 1 out of 20 times after entering my account info the launcher goes almost all white with the only thing not white being the boxes with my log-in info. When that happens I just restart the launcher and it works fine.

So the launcher is not perfect, but leaps and bounds better than what we had., it's progress.


“The only limit to our realization of tomorrow will be our doubts of today. Let us move forward with strong and active faith.” -F.D. Roosevelt
CCP Atropos
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2013-06-25 17:04:18 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
I was going to troll this thread by suggestion that people should buy a Mac and enjoy that way the old launcher but the better part of me actually only wants to ask a question to the Dev, why did you launch the launcher (for PC) when it wasn't ready for prime time?

It is something we old and loyal customers see happen over and over again, something has been found 'good enuf we'll fix it later' like the inventory debacle, Incarna, this PC only launcher and you just rub people's hair the wrong way with this. It's just bad for business.

Why not release it when you have it A: in sync with the Mac launcher, B: fixed the loss of the epic login screen C: have most of the bugs worked out? There will be always bugs but this launcher far from ready to be launched.

So why? Straight

CCP must have some masochistic side somewhere, it's the only reason I can think of.

Just because something works doesn't mean it's perfect. If I want to work on proper multi account support and not have every come up with custom junction/symlink workarounds, I have to change something. I want to remove the reason for having a second install/copy of the client and allow easier access with multiple accounts, and that necessitates something changing.

As for the Mac one, it's on Singularity at the moment.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#43 - 2013-06-25 19:39:55 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Ruze wrote:
I think the op tried really hard to sound like he knew what he was talking about. I think the op failed. Many of his 'comparisons' between the new launcher and this World of Tanks launcher are very narrow and lack meaty, real information.

But, our dear dev seems to be skipping over some of the downright honest and friendly requests.

I'll go through your statements one at a time.

Ruze wrote:
- CCP, please hear us when we say we would love to go straight back to the character selection screen from within the game. I *know* that the launcher really does ease us down that road faster than the old launcher did. But we're one set of coding away from fairly simple 'ease of use'. I don't understand why you guys seem so resistant to this.

This isn't quite the easy task you make it out to be; the client needs some extensive work to be able to restart a character from a fresh state and as such this is a large undertaking. This is why the old "logoff" button simply rebooted your client and sent you to the log in screen again.

Ruze wrote:
- Please understand that we really loved the themed and minimalistic look of the old login screen, and many of us nostalgic types would love to see that brought back in somehow. So while the launcher is straightforward about the information, maybe a new and unique character selection screen could be given more power.

I've already commented elsewhere that whilst we won't be resurrecting the login screen to be expansion branded, we are looking into making the character selection screen more in line with a theme for each expansion.

Ruze wrote:
- CCP, let us select a character from the launcher, if we so desire, and that way we can happily skip and hop right into the game.

This probably won't happen. You're almost asking for duplicated work; choose characters from within the EVE Launcher, but also character switch in the EVE Client. If you switch characters in the EVE Client, why would we duplicate it when the EVE Launcher already handles this?

There's more discussion to be had on this point, but as I mentioned above, switching characters in the client is a large technical project.


Thank you for the replies. I'd heard you mention in another post about the themed character selection screens, so this was just me reiterating a common request. I'm really looking forward to something awesome that includes full-character rendering and 'active ship/station' details, something to give us flavor and whatnot. Because if your going to keep the character screen at it's current 'icon/news' angle only with background music, you could more easily add this as an element to the center of the launcher and only have us load the client once.

I realize that the client has issues closing down and restarting. I've heard this mentioned before, and while I'm not a programmer, I can empathize with the issues which go on behind the scenes. I'm sure you realize that this request to simply 'switch characters' is a common item that we, as players, often ask for. Some of us (like myselfj) want more pizazz and flavor, others want it simpler and easier. It's got to be difficult trying to please both sides.

Keep up the good work, and hope to see more usefullness in the launcher soon, like full-fledged account management and petition support from the launcher itself, not a popup browser window.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#44 - 2013-06-25 19:42:56 UTC
CCP Atropos wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
I was going to troll this thread by suggestion that people should buy a Mac and enjoy that way the old launcher but the better part of me actually only wants to ask a question to the Dev, why did you launch the launcher (for PC) when it wasn't ready for prime time?

It is something we old and loyal customers see happen over and over again, something has been found 'good enuf we'll fix it later' like the inventory debacle, Incarna, this PC only launcher and you just rub people's hair the wrong way with this. It's just bad for business.

Why not release it when you have it A: in sync with the Mac launcher, B: fixed the loss of the epic login screen C: have most of the bugs worked out? There will be always bugs but this launcher far from ready to be launched.

So why? Straight

CCP must have some masochistic side somewhere, it's the only reason I can think of.

Just because something works doesn't mean it's perfect. If I want to work on proper multi account support and not have every come up with custom junction/symlink workarounds, I have to change something. I want to remove the reason for having a second install/copy of the client and allow easier access with multiple accounts, and that necessitates something changing.

As for the Mac one, it's on Singularity at the moment.


A personal question:

I run multiple clients on two screens. The reason for this is my screen sizes vary, and my layout/settings for each screen thus are varied as well. Is this scenario, however different I might or might not be from the norm, being taken into account during development brainstorming into multi-client users from a single launcher?

EvE development has always been top-notch on multi-screen support. Possibly individual settings files can be taken into account as well.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Sturmwolke
#45 - 2013-06-25 20:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Sarmatiko wrote:

Yes, their launcher made with one simple assumption that most of the playerbase are brainless idiots (and any SerB answer session proves this every time). This works perfectly in WoT, but do you really want to be threated like this in EVE?

I think you misundertand simplicity and clarity in design for overly dumbing down something for brainless idiots. That said, whenever the masses is concerned, it is always safe to assume that the average person has minimal technical knowledge and the reading skill of an 8 year old - so build your product around that assumption. To do otherwise is folly. Think Apple.

Now, a major fault with WG's launcher is its cryptic error messaging and reference ..... but the framework on how it puts together everything is very simple to grasp, right down to how it organizes its patch files.


  • The WoT file structure. It has an "Updates" folder where all downloaded patches are stored in ONE PLACE.
  • The cryptic message that says "For detail, see log files" refers to WOTLauncher.log file in the main program root - which incidentally, contains only 34 objects. A lot less clutter.
  • When you open that log file, it's fairly human readable and will show where it failed and contains the DL link to retrieve the file manually (via other means).


You see, EVE dumps all its patches into the main program root. Atm, there are 117 objects in the main program root. When you're trying to troubleshoot something, you can do without all that mess.
The EVE launcher log files is buried 2 layers down in Launcher\cache - rather than the more obvious location in \Launcher. This may look like nitpicking, but it all adds up to the complexity of the framework.

@CCP Atropos
It was never my intention to equate it vis-a-vis nor was it a suggestion that CCP follows any particular launcher. The key take is common for all launchers, regardless of its various incarnations.
Reliability and robustness. Clarity and simplicity. That's all I'm asking.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#46 - 2013-06-25 20:51:48 UTC
Sturmwolke wrote:
Sarmatiko wrote:

Yes, their launcher made with one simple assumption that most of the playerbase are brainless idiots (and any SerB answer session proves this every time). This works perfectly in WoT, but do you really want to be threated like this in EVE?

I think you misundertand simplicity and clarity in design for overly dumbing down something for brainless idiots. That said, whenever the masses is concerned, it is always safe to assume that the average person has minimal technical knowledge and the reading skill of an 8 year old - so build your product around that assumption. To do otherwise is folly. Think Apple.

Now, a major fault with WG's launcher is its cryptic error messaging and reference ..... but the framework on how it puts together everything is very simple to grasp, right down to how it organizes its patch files.


  • The WoT file structure. It has an "Updates" folder where all downloaded patches are stored in ONE PLACE.
  • The cryptic message that says "For detail, see log files" refers to WOTLauncher.log file in the main program root - which incidentally, contains only 34 objects. A lot less clutter.
  • When you open that log file, it's fairly human readable and will show where it failed and contains the DL link to retrieve the file manually (via other means).


You see, EVE dumps all its patches into the main program root. Atm, there are 117 objects in the main program root. When you're trying to troubleshoot something, you can do without all that mess.
The EVE launcher log files is buried 2 layers down in Launcher\cache - rather than the more obvious location in \Launcher. This may look like nitpicking, but it all adds up to the complexity of the framework.

@CCP Atropos
It was never my intention to equate it vis-a-vis nor was it a suggestion that CCP follows any particular launcher. The key take is common for all launchers, regardless of its various incarnations.
Reliability and robustness. Clarity and simplicity. That's all I'm asking.


To a lamen, these seem like fair suggestions. It doesn't sound like a 'get rid of the launcher' post, but a 'hey, here's some tips' kind of post. +1, even if it's not technically feasible for whatever reason.

That said, some users absolutely HATE Apple because they leave everything they touch feeling like a sixth graders LeapFrog. Hell, some of us hate the newer Windows for the same reason.

While simplicity doesn't equal stupidity, and complexity doesn't equal intelligence, they can be heavily dependent on user preferences. Apple sold hundreds of millions of units, but I've yet to personally meet an Apple user who I had very much in common with and would associate with on a daily basis. It's just a fundamental difference in character, neither side being better than the other.

I play EvE for it's complexity. I realize this may not relate to the principles of programming, if that's what you meant the Apple reference to show, but it's what popped up in my mind when I read it.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#47 - 2013-06-25 21:31:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
CCP Atropos wrote:
It would be good if you were able to throw the following into the comparisons: Borderlands 2, Diablo 3, (old) EVE Online, GuildWars 2, League of Legends, Mechwarrior Online, Planetside 2, Rift, Star Wars KOTR, Star Wars TOR, World Of Tanks and World Of Warcraft.

There are design issues in the EVE Launcher, and I will take your feedback into consideration, but that doesn't mean we're just going to pick one launcher and equate ourselves to it, and it alone. There are many different game launchers out there, of many varying styles, but there are little similarities between them all.


Indeed comparing other launchers to EvE is inappropriate.
EvE is different, it promotes having a lot of accounts, with obvious benefits for CCP.

BUT, while EvE being different makes it hard to make comparisons between its launcher and other games, there is this player experience breaking factor where the EvE launcher is the biggest obstacle to playing several accounts (it is an ugly pain). It basically goes straight against the very fundamental CCP interest and EvE design.

This is its HUGE flaw: going against both your game design and against your company economic interests.
RRNL
Perkone
#48 - 2013-06-25 21:42:51 UTC  |  Edited by: RRNL
Annoying ******* eve launcher, im trying to log in for 3 days in a row and for 3 days its giving problems or i need to wait 10 mins before its working, pls fix or get rid of it!!!

And btw, how does this promoted multiple accounts if i need to type the account name and password in every ******* time... one hell of a big security risk... ccp have you recieved more reports about hacks by keyloggers?
Rutger Janssen
Chanuur
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2013-06-25 22:13:57 UTC
CCP Atropos, first of all a big THANK YOU for taking feedback and posting on the forums. Even if you read all the feedback that's posted, having you actually post that you read it and reply helps sooo much with public opinion. Thank you.

Obviously I want it easier to swap accounts, really liked how I could just have multiple clients load at the same time and just log in one after each other without having to wait inbetween. But you already know that.

What I haven't seen posted about yet (but that's because I barely keep up on the forums) is that with the previous launcher, it would detect a new patch after you got your pc out of hibernation and had the launcher open. Atleast before the client was started.

However the new launcher fails at this. I can login and get the old login screen saying that there's a new patch, requiring me to close the client and restart the launcer (tried to patch one time from the login screen which didn't work).

If you could restore that functionality, it would be very very nice :)
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#50 - 2013-06-25 23:01:48 UTC
I hate to bash people's work when I don't understand the trade but as a customer I would like to say:

KILL THE LAUNCHER

and

GIVE ME MY NICE LOG-IN SCREEN BACK
Sir Spottington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-06-25 23:05:55 UTC
i play lots of mmo's and i dislike the launchers on alot of them. But personally ive not had any problems with the new EvE launcher, i also dont have a problem with the way it works for multiboxing, changing accounts,updating etc. i dont like it or dislike it overall, its just new. It is alot better than some mmo's though, star trek online's is just horrific.

Jassmin Joy
Pulling The Plug
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#52 - 2013-06-25 23:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jassmin Joy
"I joined EVE Online on May 2010 and this was the logon screen I saw..The first time I saw that blood red screen and the very moody and ominous music made me say to myself, "Oh. MY. God. What the ^@?! did I just subscribe to?". And whoa, did I ever find out. I got griefed a few times a week during my first month.
This logon screen and the music, for me, best captures what EVE Online is all about.
This ain't Star Trek Online, buddy. EVE Online will eat you alive."

The above is the top comment on a video of the dominion log in screen, i've linked this because this is entirely relevant.
Log in screen are a huge part of gaming, For each and every Halo game i own, i've sat at the log in screen just listening the to theme, for anything up to 20 minutes i'd sit and listen in awe at it, and just all round brilliance of what i'm seeing and listening to.

For me starting, i forget which eve expansion i started with, But i sat listening and remember shivers going down my spine as i listened and watched theme and eve come to life, i hadent even logged in yet and here was this window into eve! what was about to happen?!

Now we have this flimsy log in screen that reminds me of things F2P games release, it's not eve and i don't like it.

I already get that you're likely never going back on this, but you've lost a major part of the experience of eve with losing the old log in screen, Some of you don't play eve, some of you have played eve for far too long, But lets not try to forget that the log in screen is the first thing new players see. And the advertising billboard that we have now is a shadow of the former log in screen.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#53 - 2013-06-26 06:09:08 UTC
Jassmin Joy wrote:
"I joined EVE Online on May 2010 and this was the logon screen I saw..The first time I saw that blood red screen and the very moody and ominous music made me say to myself, "Oh. MY. God. What the ^@?! did I just subscribe to?". And whoa, did I ever find out. I got griefed a few times a week during my first month.
This logon screen and the music, for me, best captures what EVE Online is all about.
This ain't Star Trek Online, buddy. EVE Online will eat you alive."

The above is the top comment on a video of the dominion log in screen, i've linked this because this is entirely relevant.
Log in screen are a huge part of gaming, For each and every Halo game i own, i've sat at the log in screen just listening the to theme, for anything up to 20 minutes i'd sit and listen in awe at it, and just all round brilliance of what i'm seeing and listening to.

For me starting, i forget which eve expansion i started with, But i sat listening and remember shivers going down my spine as i listened and watched theme and eve come to life, i hadent even logged in yet and here was this window into eve! what was about to happen?!

Now we have this flimsy log in screen that reminds me of things F2P games release, it's not eve and i don't like it.

I already get that you're likely never going back on this, but you've lost a major part of the experience of eve with losing the old log in screen, Some of you don't play eve, some of you have played eve for far too long, But lets not try to forget that the log in screen is the first thing new players see. And the advertising billboard that we have now is a shadow of the former log in screen.



Great post!

We have traded the big impact, EvE atmosphere with a F2P washed look.

When are we going to get some pandas in its background graphics? X
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