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Federation citizens, let's talk about the Republic
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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-06-25 14:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
In any case, I don't see why you're here tossing little snarky throw-away lines into a discussion which is intended to be by-and-for citizens of the Federation. I have taken pains to try and keep Federation citizens out of Havohej's discussion, after all. I would have hoped the same courtesy would be extended to this one.


"Federation citizens, let's talk about the Republic"

"Republic citizens, let's talk about the Federation."

May I propose a novel idea?

"Federation and Republic citizens, let's talk to each other."

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#62 - 2013-06-25 15:26:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Derin Phobos
*Galnet Error*
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#63 - 2013-06-25 15:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Derin Phobos
Stitcher wrote:
Andrea Okazon wrote:
What reasoning, exactly, are we meant to employ in dealing with such a person?


You're not. You're meant to employ reasoning with the people who are reasonable.

Disentangle the conversation and have it, it's a valid one to have. The whys, wherefores and consequences of Colelie are one conversation. The question of whether or not the Federation respects the Matari and is content to leave the Tribes to chart their own course is another. The latter may have springboarded off the former, but it's a subject that can be discussed on its own, I think.

And if somebody tries to kill you, you try and kill them right back. That's the way of the world.

Derin Phobos wrote:
Now would hardly be the right time to address that topic,


When would be?



After the Republic has formally apologized and sought to make some manner of amends for their actions.

Greater errors must be addressed and solved before lesser ones, and make no mistake: a condescending attitude IS lesser than the invasion and slaughter of a nation that considered you allies.

If the Republic refuses to acknowledge this, then I imagine the only thing that will save this alliance is lack of conviction on the part of the Federation leadership in their own rights as a sovereign entity.


Stitcher wrote:


May I propose a novel idea?

"Federation and Republic citizens, let's talk to each other."


Something I have been advocating myself. However, as per above, such talks are going to have to start with an apology from the Republic. Given what I have seen so far from Republic loyalists, that is unlikely to happen, to the point where I wonder if it might actually be more damaging than silence.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-06-25 15:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
I see no reason why these things can't be done concurrently, nor indeed do I see any reason why the discussion couldn't lead to a reconciliation.

There's no such thing as an "appropriate time" for a conversation, pilot, with the possible exception of "right now."

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Anslo
Scope Works
#65 - 2013-06-25 15:35:20 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I see no reason why these things can't be done concurrently, nor indeed do I see any reason why the discussion couldn't lead to a reconciliation.

There's no such thing as an "appropriate time" for a conversation, pilot, with the possible exception of "right now."


Both sides have faults. Doesn't matter if one is worse than the other. Both sides screwed up. So, both sides need to ******* suck it up, get over themselves, say 'my bad,' leave it at that, and focus on reaffirming this alliance.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#66 - 2013-06-25 15:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Derin Phobos
*GalNet Error*
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#67 - 2013-06-25 15:40:51 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I see no reason why these things can't be done concurrently.


Perhaps this crude analogy will work better for you:

A judge holds court over two men. The head of security speaks:

"Your honor, these men have registered simultaneous complaints against each other."

The judge nods at the men. "And what are these complaints?"

The first man, swathed in bandages, addresses the judge. "Your honor, that man broke into my home, destroyed my property, and very nearly beat me to death!"

Turning his gaze to the other man, the judge nodded, indicating him to voice his own complaint.

"That guy's an arrogant snob!"

Tell me, Mr. Stitcher, whose complaint in that scenario should be addressed first?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-06-25 15:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Your analogy isn't just crude, it's useless. We're not in a courtroom here, where appeals must be made to an arbiter of justice who has a limited budget of attention. We're in the real world, where multiple things are capable of being discussed simultaneously.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#69 - 2013-06-25 15:53:08 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Your analogy isn't just crude, it's useless. We're not in a courtroom here. We're in the real world, where multiple things are capable of being discussed simultaneously because there is no arbiter of justice with limited attention to appeal to.


I am not saying that weeks or months need to pass before the Republics concerns can be addressed, only that a certain action is required. The Republic committed a war crime, Mr. Stitcher. Any grievances of Federation attitude they wish to bring forward pale in comparison, and as such this crime needs to be addressed and the root cause rectified before further negotiations can continue.

Because, if the Republic cannot show remorse for Colelie and make an effort to prove it will not happen again, what does the rest matter? The alliance would be untenable at that point, as no one values an "ally" that betrays them on a whim.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-06-25 15:59:10 UTC
Whether or not the allegations of Federal arrogance are warranted is an important question in and of its own right, and a conversation worth having in and of its own right. There is no good reason - none - why that conversation cannot be concurrent with the one about Colelie.

Indeed, if such really was the root cause of the battle, then one possible avenue for the Federation to secure an apology would be for them to address the allegations against their character and absolve themselves.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-06-25 16:00:15 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Both sides have faults. Doesn't matter if one is worse than the other. Both sides screwed up. So, both sides need to ******* suck it up, get over themselves, say 'my bad,' leave it at that, and focus on reaffirming this alliance.

No, Mr. Anslo, one side screwed up. One side screwed up very, very badly. The Republic brought an invading fleet into Colelie. The Republic fired the first shots. The Republic refused to back down and leave on several occasions throughout the battle when given the opportunity. Believe what you will, but the facts speak clearly for themselves: the Republic came looking for Gallente blood, and they got exactly what they wanted.

The only downside for them is that they lost. So now they have to deal with the repercussions of those poor decisions. How you can sympathize with them is beyond my reasoning.
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#72 - 2013-06-25 16:07:28 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Are allegations of Gallente "imperialist arrogance" a result of Minmatar extremist politics as encapsulated by pilot Havohej, or is it vice versa?

Either way, if the we are cultural imperialists, we have done mightily terrible job of it, given how vibrant and rich Minmatar culture is.


I'd politely suggest that if both Matari and Caldari are levelling that accusation, it might well be an accusation worth taking seriously.


Here's the thing with that attitude.

If any race in the cluster could be called xenophobic, it's the Caldari. (Note phrasing: I'm not saying they are xenophobic, just that they come pretty damn close sometimes). They're insular, the Napaani language is inherently biased against foreigners... and then there's the fact that the State is extremely structured, conservative, and oh yes, has a colossal grudge against the Federation. This is an entity that isn't going to take cultural influence from anyone kindly, and certainly not from the Federation.

Meanwhile, the Minmatar are trying to recover from a pretty long time under the very real cultural domination of the Amarrians. That's a situation that will put anyone on the defensive - and the Matari are a pretty strong-willed race to begin with, so a natural tendency to be dubious about someone else's ideas has been magnified a thousandfold.

Since I'm on the topic, the Amarrian Empire is defined by its culture and the belief that everyone should have that culture, so anyone else's ideas can go screw themselves.

I'm not saying Gallentean 'cultural imperialism' is a myth. I'm just pointing out that everyone else in a position to comment on it is naturally massively biased.
Eden Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-06-25 16:08:57 UTC
I was in colelie. I was there. I killed many minmatars, and I would do it again if they dared **** on our sovereign federation all for a person who was bound to die any day now anyway.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-06-25 16:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Repentence Tyrathlion wrote:
Here's the thing with that attitude.

If any race in the cluster could be called xenophobic, it's the Caldari. (Note phrasing: I'm not saying they are xenophobic, just that they come pretty damn close sometimes). They're insular, the Napaani language is inherently biased against foreigners... and then there's the fact that the State is extremely structured, conservative, and oh yes, has a colossal grudge against the Federation. This is an entity that isn't going to take cultural influence from anyone kindly, and certainly not from the Federation.

Meanwhile, the Minmatar are trying to recover from a pretty long time under the very real cultural domination of the Amarrians. That's a situation that will put anyone on the defensive - and the Matari are a pretty strong-willed race to begin with, so a natural tendency to be dubious about someone else's ideas has been magnified a thousandfold.

Since I'm on the topic, the Amarrian Empire is defined by its culture and the belief that everyone should have that culture, so anyone else's ideas can go screw themselves.

I'm not saying Gallentean 'cultural imperialism' is a myth. I'm just pointing out that everyone else in a position to comment on it is naturally massively biased.


Granted, but you can't assume bias, and in fact bias doesn't necessarily invalidate the position. If all the other cars are coming towards you, sounding their horns and flashing their lights, you might naturally conclude that they're biased and you'd be right about that... but you'd still be on the wrong side of the highway.

The point is, take the allegations seriously, treat them with the respect they deserve. If the respect they deserve is to be dismissed after a thorough demolition job, then fair enough. Bias is a factor you have to be aware of and account for in your reasoning, not an excuse never to embark on the process of reasoning in the first place.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#75 - 2013-06-25 16:23:23 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Whether or not the allegations of Federal arrogance are warranted is an important question in and of its own right, and a conversation worth having in and of its own right.


I agree.

Stitcher wrote:
There is no good reason - none - why that conversation cannot be concurrent with the one about Colelie.


I disagree.

Stitcher wrote:
Indeed, if such really was the root cause of the battle, then one possible avenue for the Federation to secure an apology would be for them to address the allegations against their character and absolve themselves.


That is absurd, and I think displays a fundamental flaw in your logic.

The Republic owes the Federation that apology, for their transgression is far, far greater than what they are accusing the Gallente of.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-06-25 16:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
A) On what grounds do you disagree? What good reason is there that the conversation about attitude cannot be concurrent with the one about the battle at Colelie?

and B) Please specify exactly where, and what, the flaw in my reasoning is.

Whether or not the Republic owes the Federation an apology is a very different matter to whether or not they are persuaded that they do. As I said, this isn't a courtroom where an arbiter of justice will hand down judgement. If the Federation wants that apology and any remuneration that goes with it, then they will receive it only if the Republic is both persuaded that it is owed and also feels obligated to honour that debt.

Having the conversation about arrogance and attitudes etc. is a potential gambit the persuasion side of things.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#77 - 2013-06-25 16:36:23 UTC
I will always appreciate that Gallenteans and Caldari alike both seek to govern their respective empires by the principles of the rule of law. One must really consider who one's friends and enemies are.
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#78 - 2013-06-25 16:45:08 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
A) On what grounds do you disagree? What good reason is there that the conversation about attitude cannot be concurrent with the one about the battle at Colelie?

and B) Please specify exactly where, and what, the flaw in my reasoning is.

Whether or not the Republic owes the Federation an apology is a very different matter to whether or not they are persuaded that they do. As I said, this isn't a courtroom where an arbiter of justice will hand down judgement. If the Federation wants that apology and any remuneration that goes with it, then they will receive it only if the Republic is both persuaded that it is owed and also feels obligated to honour that debt.

Having the conversation about arrogance and attitudes etc. is a potential gambit the persuasion side of things.


You are assuming the the Federation wants to persuade the Republic, Mr. Stitcher. That is the flaw in your reasoning, and why I disagree.

If the Republic does not inherently understand the severity of their actions and how that undermines any legitimate claims they may have against the Federation, then a severe myopia on their part is revealed. There is no value in an "ally" that seeks to invade and slaughter your citizens because they feel slighted, Mr. Stitcher.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-06-25 16:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Derin Phobos wrote:
You are assuming the the Federation wants to persuade the Republic, Mr. Stitcher. That is the flaw in your reasoning, and why I disagree.


Stitcher wrote:
If the Federation wants that apology...


The word "if" has a very specific meaning, pilot.

In any case, you have not addressed the question; What good reason is there that the conversation about attitude cannot be concurrent with the one about the battle at Colelie?

Quote:
If the Republic does not inherently understand the severity of their actions and how that undermines any legitimate claims they may have against the Federation, then a severe myopia on their part is revealed. There is no value in an "ally" that seeks to invade and slaughter your citizens because they feel slighted, Mr. Stitcher.


There would, however, be value in persuading them of the existence of said hypothetical myopia. You have to be aware of a problem before you can seek to correct it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Eden Deninard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-06-25 16:53:28 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I will always appreciate that Gallenteans and Caldari alike both seek to govern their respective empires by the principles of the rule of law. One must really consider who one's friends and enemies are.

Agreed, this is probably the most mind blowing thing out of all this.