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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Federation and Republic citizens, lets talk about the situation.
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Anslo
Scope Works
#21 - 2013-06-25 16:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
I think it's funny that you demand we give respect to murderers and traitors, before expecting the same from them.

I ain't demanding one before the other. I'm saying both need to acknowledge their failures, together, in some semblance of maturity that is apparently lacking in the political spheres of both Empires. Don't twist my words like that to fit your own agenda. The forces that invaded were a major **** up, more so than ours in not working with the Minmatar when this all started.

That STILL does not mean we're justified in what we did. The verse doesn't revolve around the Federation. We USED to think that way and respect cultures far and wide. I don't know what the hell happened to us.

Quote:
I also think it's funny that you classify the invasion fleet as a rogue force, when the Republic itself has yet to do so. I think perhaps you should show the Matari some respect and let them speak for themselves before rushing off to defend them.


Or maybe you should stop twisting words and labeling my inference as not only non-factual because of LACK of evidence (as opposed to contrary evidence), but as insulting to the same people I'm trying to back up here while you wag a finger at em. Do you really think we're infallible? Do you really think we're a faultless entity?

Wake up and smell the ashes kid. The Federation ain't all the glitz and glam it appears to be when wearing that pretty mask. There's a pretty scarred face, its true face, right under the glittering facade. You'd do yourself a favor to learn that quick.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
#22 - 2013-06-25 16:37:37 UTC
Anslo wrote:

THANK YOU. All of my this.

OK so some nutter extremists came in and invaded. Not good. This doesn't mean the whole of the Republic backed this event. This doesn't mean every Matari is anti-Federation. But seriously, they didn't even get information about Midular til it was too late. We didn't meet them in the middle as an entity that is supposed to be a 'moral paragon' and leader in progressive thought.

We didn't reach across the celestial aisle despite their (justified) outrage and say, "Look, this is bad. Really bad. We get that you're angry, but we can't just go find and kill the guy or let you all come in and then we back off. But we know this means a lot to you. Send over your best investigators and security people, and let's work together side-by-side to bring this bastard to justice." See, IF we had done that instead of letting pompous, nationalist windbag politicians treat the Minmatar like children and just saying "no," as opposed to a people capable of LOGICAL REASONING, this whole thing could have been avoided.

AND THEN The Fed has the balls to say that this is ALL the Republic's fault. Is it in part their fault? Sure. Who the hell sends dreads over to an ally's space to get a criminal mid-trial or grab a lady in IC that might die if she moves? But the blame isn't just the Republic's...no, not the Republic. The extremists in the dreadnaughts. It's our fault too for being such stuck up political assholes. Plain and simple.

We're both at fault and loyalists on both sides are acting like school children yelling YOU STARTED IT, NU UH, YA HUH, NA UH.

For ****'s sake man. Both side's diplomats need to sit down and hammer this out. Preferably more worldly and exposed diplos from BOTH SIDES.


I admire your sentiment, I really do. It would be so easy to agree with you entirely, and part of me really wants to accept what you say, so that we could all find a way forward from this.

However, I believe that if we are to bury our heads in the sand and hand wave this as a 'just a mistake' we are in grave danger of finding ourselves in this same place again one day.

There is something deeply wrong with the alliance, it is evident that there is a festering resentment on both sides. This is not simply going to fix itself if we refuse to discuss the issues at home first, as well as with one another as nations. Please recognize, that this was not a situation created by "some extremists" in a minority. Colelie was sanctioned by the Republic's government, as the Federation's decision to withhold details of Broteau was made by our own FIO. We are dealing with genuine feeling from our peoples.

I do agree when you say that both sides have made mistakes, we can infer from this that there are certainly legitimate grievances on both sides. If we do not confront this head on and alter the shape of our alliance in light of these grievances, they will only fester further. We will only invite history to repeat itself by equivocating at times like this.

A legitimate grievance is ammunition for demagogues. We have much to fear from the people who can distort these issues, and herd a crowd with vitriolic rhetoric for their own ends. We've seen this mechanism at work in the State over the last years, and seen how people have suffered from it. We saw part of this same process at Eturrer's execution. We saw it again at Colelie, then again in the aftermath as ethnic Matari were made to live in fear in the Federation.

We are not always going to agree on every issue, and there is no reason that we should. I believe what should matter, is how we deal with these disagreements, and how they are resolved. So yes, bring on your worldly diplomats, but do not be afraid to step back from any part of our current commitments that are not working or only serving to drive the resentment further. We need to confront this with realism.
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#23 - 2013-06-25 16:38:20 UTC
Mr. Anslo, while it is important to understand what actions caused Colelie, it is just as important if nor more so for the Republic to take responsibility. To essentially say, "Regardless of how we felt or what insults we percieved, this should not have happened and will never happen again." That is a basic requirement for an alliance based on mutual trust to continue. If the Federation has to appease the Republic to get such a response, then it is meaningless, because it indicates that the Republic is still governed by feelings instead of logic and tact.

The invasion may not have been full scale, but I would not rush to credit extremists until the Republic government has done so. Work with the information you have, not with what you wish to be true.

The Gallente actually DO have a right to trash other cultures, as I believe your own culture focuses on individual expression and freedom. I personally do not see the merits of this, but if it comes down to the fact that Republic culture is offended by Federation culture, I do agree the Federation would benefit from a little self-examination. However, navel-gazing takes a backseat to safety, and the Republic should take steps to assure that safety for their allies.

Regarding Federation apologies regarding Broteau, I imagine those could come quick on the heels of the Republic diplomatic efforts. Again however, as the side who transgressed the last and most violently, the Republic needs to demonstrate a desire to initiate this process.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-06-25 16:40:52 UTC
The terrible and atrocious crime we committed against the Republic... remind me again, was that the time we prosecuted and punished a Federation criminal who committed a heinous act of violence in the Federation against Federation citizens and guests of the Federation?

The Federation made some mistakes in the process, yes, but the way the Republic responded was leagues and orders of magnitude out of line. The burden to prove that they are still dedicated to this alliance is almost entirely on their shoulders now. It is not at all unreasonable to expect them to make the first moves of penance and restitution before reciprocating the gesture.
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#25 - 2013-06-25 16:45:34 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
It is not at all unreasonable to expect them to make the first moves of penance and restitution before reciprocating the gesture.


Ha! Knowing the Republic, you'll likely be old and dead before that happens with any sincerity.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#26 - 2013-06-25 16:46:28 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
It is not at all unreasonable to expect them to make the first moves of penance and restitution before reciprocating the gesture.


Ha! Knowing the Republic, you'll likely be old and dead before that happens with any sincerity.


That is my fear in this matter.
Anslo
Scope Works
#27 - 2013-06-25 16:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:
However, I believe that if we are to bury our heads in the sand and hand wave this as a 'just a mistake' we are in grave danger of finding ourselves in this same place again one day....I do agree when you say that both sides have made mistakes, we can infer from this that there are certainly legitimate grievances on both sides. If we do not confront this head on and alter the shape of our alliance in light of these grievances, they will only fester further. We will only invite history to repeat itself by equivocating at times like this.

No. This was not a mistake. I'll state that this was clearly an intentional attack. A rogue fleet possibly, but it still happened. As mentioned before, I'm fine with sanctions and reparations for this. I just don't like seeing my own people act like they're faultless saints in all this. But for the most part, I agree with you, and I'm happy to see another level head in here not spewing vitriol about tearing up treaties and closing borders and blasting stations.

Quote:
Colelie was sanctioned by the Republic's government, as the Federation's decision to withhold details of Broteau was made by our own FIO. We are dealing with genuine feeling from our peoples.

Did I miss something? Where was it stated that this was a Republic sanctioned fleet invasion?

Bryen Verrisai wrote:
The terrible and atrocious crime we committed against the Republic... remind me again, was that the time we prosecuted and punished a Federation criminal who committed a heinous act of violence in the Federation against Federation citizens and guests of the Federation?

No that was the past few decades of treating them like pets instead of allies. YOU might not have the world view to see how insulting that is to those people, but others do.

Derin Phobos wrote:
Mr. Anslo, while it is important to understand what actions caused Colelie, it is just as important if nor more so for the Republic to take responsibility. To essentially say, "Regardless of how we felt or what insults we percieved, this should not have happened and will never happen again." That is a basic requirement for an alliance based on mutual trust to continue. If the Federation has to appease the Republic to get such a response, then it is meaningless, because it indicates that the Republic is still governed by feelings instead of logic and tact.

Like I said above, this is mostly right. BOTH sides need to come to the table for an apology, Federation AND Republic. The issue I take is what some are suggesting we do. Revenge? Retribution? More blood shed?

I remember a time when the Federation was a supposed paragon of understanding and cultural enlightenment. We messed up with the Caldari and for a fleeting, shining second, it seemed like we had learned from that mistake. The ultra nationalism died out and we were on the way to being the top again. Power is not simply projection of influence or weapons. Power is not just harnessing the power of those with a fervent dedication to a government. Power, as what I believe the Federation is and what it stands for, comes from leading.

We have the ability to lead in how we conduct ourselves and set an example of how things should be done. We have the knowledge and history to reach across the stars and work with another Empire, strong and emotional, and speak as equals and not children. We have the lessons learned to offer a hand in understanding and respectful comradeship to a long time enemy and invite them to sit and discuss things. We have the ability to lead by example not through weapons but through the sheer skills and knowledge we have accumulated through becoming an amalgamation of all races. To hell with nationalism, to hell with military fear mongering, to hell with cultural imperialism through cheap marketing and the next 'fad.' You know what I want to see? I want to see us lead by example and exercise those abilities and show the cluster that we're not just some stuck up, holier-than-thou people. I want us to throw our ego's aside, end the mud slinging, work with our ally and obtain reparations not from children but from EQUALS, to offer a hand to the State and say that what happened all those years ago must not hold us back from co-existence and that we can work together as allies.

I want the Federation to be the Federation again. But all I'm seeing is an endless spiral into utter bullshit.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Narcisa De Fontaine
Core Medical Group
#28 - 2013-06-25 17:06:15 UTC
Anslo wrote:

Did I miss something? Where was it stated that this was a Republic sanctioned fleet invasion?


Please, Anslo, think about this some more. Do you honestly mean to tell me that a fleet of dreadnaughts were allowed to cross the border without Shakor's approval? Electus Matari have already confirmed that this was on orders from 'the highest level' or words to that effect, which in turn became grounds for their own involvement. This was certainly state sponsored.

Anslo wrote:


I remember a time when the Federation was a supposed paragon of understanding and cultural enlightenment.


I feel that much of the tendency for others to call us arrogant stems from this conceit. I prefer a Federation that knows and accepts it has never been any kind of paragon, but strives hard to improve itself, and will not take the easy path in that regard. The problem comes when we expect the same of others, according to our values.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-25 17:06:56 UTC
If the Republic didn't like being in an alliance with our nation then they were free to leave at any time. Instead they chose to not only refuse to address the issue which you seem to believe is so core to their disagreements with the Federation (and thus must be called into question just how large of an issue it actually is), but to express their displeasure via murder and treachery.

And if the Republic doesn't want to be treated like children after these events, then they need to stop acting like children.
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#30 - 2013-06-25 17:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Derin Phobos
Anslo wrote:

Did I miss something? Where was it stated that this was a Republic sanctioned fleet invasion?


As those dreadnoughts were Republic Fleet , and no denial has been made by the Republic despite the length of time that has passed, presuming otherwise is wishful thinking at this point.

Anslo wrote:

No that was the past few decades of treating them like pets instead of allies. YOU might not have the world view to see how insulting that is to those people, but others do.


The thousands of Federal crewmen defending their homeland were more than insulted, Mr. Anslo. The transition from insults to death is steep, and was initiated by the Republic.

Anslo wrote:

Like I said above, this is mostly right. BOTH sides need to come to the table for an apology, Federation AND Republic. The issue I take is what some are suggesting we do. Revenge? Retribution? More blood shed?


Disregard the anger from your countrymen, for all that they rage and call for blood, the citizens of the Republic can be assured that their nation will not be invaded. The Republic needs to be held to the same standard.

Anslo wrote:
I remember a time when the Federation was a supposed paragon of understanding and cultural enlightenment. We messed up with the Caldari and for a fleeting, shining second, it seemed like we had learned from that mistake. The ultra nationalism died out and we were on the way to being the top again. Power is not simply projection of influence or weapons. Power is not just harnessing the power of those with a fervent dedication to a government. Power, as what I believe the Federation is and what it stands for, comes from leading.

We have the ability to lead in how we conduct ourselves and set an example of how things should be done. We have the knowledge and history to reach across the stars and work with another Empire, strong and emotional, and speak as equals and not children. We have the lessons learned to offer a hand in understanding and respectful comradeship to a long time enemy and invite them to sit and discuss things. We have the ability to lead by example not through weapons but through the sheer skills and knowledge we have accumulated through becoming an amalgamation of all races. To hell with nationalism, to hell with military fear mongering, to hell with cultural imperialism. You know what I want to see? I want to see us lead by example and exercise those abilities and show the cluster that we're not just some stuck up, holier-than-thou people. I want us to throw our ego's aside, end the mud slinging, work with our ally and obtain reparations not from children but from EQUALS, to offer a hand to the State and say that what happened all those years ago must not hold us back from co-existence and that we can work together as allies.

I want the Federation to be the Federation again. But all I'm seeing is an endless spiral into utter bullshit.


Perhaps ironically, your desire to "lead by example" comes off (to my Caldari senses) as just more patronizing. The Republic need to prove that they can function as a nation without the Federation's help or example. The first step is to admit when they have erred. From there, the Federation can respond in kind, and the alliance can be renewed.
Anslo
Scope Works
#31 - 2013-06-25 17:11:31 UTC
Narcisa De Fontaine wrote:
Please, Anslo, think about this some more. Do you honestly mean to tell me that a fleet of dreadnaughts were allowed to cross the border without Shakor's approval? Electus Matari have already confirmed that this was on orders from 'the highest level' or words to that effect, which in turn became grounds for their own involvement. This was certainly state sponsored.

Highest level of...what? Republic Administration? A single General? A Republic Representative capable of hiding fleet movement? Governments aren't that simple. I get where you're coming from, honestly. I can see why that looks rather horrid. Even if it WAS the Republic, or Shakor himself, I still support reparations and and an apology sure. But we still need to be the bigger people here and sit with them as equals despite what's happened.

Anslo wrote:
I feel that much of the tendency for others to call us arrogant stems from this conceit. I prefer a Federation that knows and accepts it has never been any kind of paragon, but strives hard to improve itself, and will not take the easy path in that regard. The problem comes when we expect the same of others, according to our values.

This is a good way of looking at this. I agree. Paragon was not the right word. But the act of continually striving and improving, is definitely the right word for it. Narcisa, I would love to talk to you more about this topic outside of the impending **** storm that will be this thread. If you're willing, let's chat.

Bryen Verrisai wrote:
If the Republic didn't like being in an alliance with our nation then they were free to leave at any time. Instead they chose to not only refuse to address the issue which you seem to believe is so core to their disagreements with the Federation (and thus must be called into question just how large of an issue it actually is), but to express their displeasure via murder and treachery.

And if the Republic doesn't want to be treated like children after these events, then they need to stop acting like children.


You'll learn one day. I hope...

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Anslo
Scope Works
#32 - 2013-06-25 17:19:30 UTC
Derin Phobos wrote:
The thousands of Federal crewmen defending their homeland were more than insulted, Mr. Anslo. The transition from insults to death is steep, and was initiated by the Republic.

Yes, it was. You are correct.

Quote:
Disregard the anger from your countrymen, for all that they rage and call for blood, the citizens of the Republic can be assured that their nation will not be invaded. The Republic needs to be brought up to the same standard.

Another point I agree on, yes.

Quote:
Perhaps ironically, your desire to "lead by example" comes off (to my Caldari senses) as just more patronizing. The Republic need to prove that they can function as a nation without the Federation's help or example. The first step is to admit when they have erred. From there, the Federation can respond in kind, and the alliance can be renewed.

Sorry if that was patronizing, not how I meant to come off. But why does it come down to, 'we'll do it if they do it?' That seems like more of the immaturity I want to see avoided. When I say lead by example, I mean we take the first step to offer a table to sit at.

We, while apologizing for our mistake, firmly state that the retaliation that occurred was no acceptable and demand reparations from there. This is the example I want us to lead by, not to go into some fit of xenophobic rage and act on it. Still, rikaato for your opinion on my statement.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#33 - 2013-06-25 17:27:58 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Highest level of...what? Republic Administration? A single General? A Republic Representative capable of hiding fleet movement? Governments aren't that simple. I get where you're coming from, honestly. I can see why that looks rather horrid. Even if it WAS the Republic, or Shakor himself, I still support reparations and and an apology sure. But we still need to be the bigger people here and sit with them as equals despite what's happened.


You acknowledge the Republic is a polyarchical entity...so why are you painting the Federation as an entity that unequivocally supported everything you are calling it out on? We have a Senate of over 900 individuals, 62 constellation parliaments, 388 sovereign star systems, and a list of state signatories that go into the tens of thousands.
Anslo
Scope Works
#34 - 2013-06-25 17:32:28 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
You acknowledge the Republic is a polyarchical entity...so why are you painting the Federation as an entity that unequivocally supported everything you are calling it out on? We have a Senate of over 900 individuals, 62 constellation parliaments, 388 sovereign star systems, and a list of state signatories that go into the tens of thousands.


...How does this pertain to the debate? Can you explain? Sorry, I'm a doctor, not a political scientist.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#35 - 2013-06-25 17:35:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Derin Phobos
Anslo wrote:
We, while apologizing for our mistake, firmly state that the retaliation that occurred was no acceptable and demand reparations from there. This is the example I want us to lead by, not to go into some fit of xenophobic rage and act on it. Still, rikaato for your opinion on my statement.


I think it is mostly a matter of protocol that we disagree upon, Mr. Anslo. From my (outsider) perspective, the party that has most grievously transgressed must be the first to offer the olive branch. The willingness to do is a sign of maturity and goodwill, and it is a credit to your Federation that some of your citizens display such willingness in the face of recent events.

That said, sometimes it is necessary to yield the initiative to others, to let them prove their own maturity and goodwill. There are those in the Republic that have expressed regret and a desire for the treaty to continue, which is a hopeful indicator. With you and others in the Federation having expressed the same, all that is needed is for the Republic to come to the table with an apology. I think the diplomats can work things out from there.

There is certainly no need for further bloodshed.
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#36 - 2013-06-25 17:39:09 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
You acknowledge the Republic is a polyarchical entity...so why are you painting the Federation as an entity that unequivocally supported everything you are calling it out on? We have a Senate of over 900 individuals, 62 constellation parliaments, 388 sovereign star systems, and a list of state signatories that go into the tens of thousands.


...How does this pertain to the debate? Can you explain? Sorry, I'm a doctor, not a political scientist.


I believe he is making the point that if you are going to break down the Republic's leadership into blocks of power that may or may not have the authority to, in this case, make a major blunder, then it has to be recognized that the Federation, while ostensibly under the direction of the Senate, is in fact, a vast array of governing bodies each capable of independent action.

If we are going to make exceptions for the Minmatar and not hold the Republic responsible for making the call on the invasion, then the Senate cannot be held responsible for the actions of the member states within the Federation.

Of course, I may have missed the mark.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#37 - 2013-06-25 17:41:09 UTC
I'm saying that you're treating the Federation as a homogeneous and amorphous blob that is absolutely guilty of every allegation you level against it. It's not completely innocent either, but balance and deliberation is what defines our liberal democracy.
Anslo
Scope Works
#38 - 2013-06-25 17:53:35 UTC
Derin Phobos wrote:
Anslo wrote:
We, while apologizing for our mistake, firmly state that the retaliation that occurred was no acceptable and demand reparations from there. This is the example I want us to lead by, not to go into some fit of xenophobic rage and act on it. Still, rikaato for your opinion on my statement.


I think it is mostly a matter of protocol that we disagree upon, Mr. Anslo. From my (outsider) perspective, the party that has most grievously transgressed must be the first to offer the olive branch. The willingness to do is a sign of maturity and goodwill, and it is a credit to your Federation that some of your citizens display such willingness in the face of recent events.

That said, sometimes it is necessary to yield the initiative to others, to let them prove their own maturity and goodwill. There are those in the Republic that have expressed regret and a desire for the treaty to continue, which is a hopeful indicator. With you and others in the Federation having expressed the same, all that is needed is for the Republic to come to the table with an apology. I think the diplomats can work things out from there.

There is certainly no need for further bloodshed.


You. I like you. A lot.

Steffanie Saissore wrote:

I believe he is making the point that if you are going to break down the Republic's leadership into blocks of power that may or may not have the authority to, in this case, make a major blunder, then it has to be recognized that the Federation, while ostensibly under the direction of the Senate, is in fact, a vast array of governing bodies each capable of independent action.

If we are going to make exceptions for the Minmatar and not hold the Republic responsible for making the call on the invasion, then the Senate cannot be held responsible for the actions of the member states within the Federation.

Of course, I may have missed the mark.


That's a very good point. My grievance, however, wasn't with the counter attack, but with the venom I've seen from the Federation's capsuleers. I got a thing with nationalism. It just...irks me to see it cause so much spite to surface.

Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
I'm saying that you're treating the Federation as a homogeneous and amorphous blob that is absolutely guilty of every allegation you level against it. It's not completely innocent either, but balance and deliberation is what defines our liberal democracy.


Yes, it does. With the bad comes good and I know that. The same government that acts stupidly and arrogant at many a time if the same one that let's me speak out against it. It's the same one that lets me jump in a fountain on Federation Day just because. It's the same one that governs where I call home. We have a lot of good things, big and small, going for us. It's a great place to live. But that doesn't mean calling out the bad (and it's bad) means labeling the Federation as a 'blob.'

I can see where you're coming from though. It seems like I'm saying everyone's crying for blood. This, surely, is an exaggeration. However, while not everyone is crying for blood and revenge, there sure is a whole hell of a lot of it coming from both eggers AND baseliners. A whole lot. What little level headedness that shows up calling for both sides to sit and discuss this matter is drowned out by the cries of rage from our own people. It makes my stomach knot up.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-06-25 18:19:21 UTC
Anslo wrote:
You'll learn one day. I hope...

And supposedly it's the rest of us that are conceited and holier-than-thou.
Anslo
Scope Works
#40 - 2013-06-25 18:23:28 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Anslo wrote:
You'll learn one day. I hope...

And supposedly it's the rest of us that are conceited and holier-than-thou.


No, not the rest. Just people who seem to think the Minmatar are completely to blame and that the Federation has done nothing wrong, or does not need to do a thing, or that the Fed should close all borders, or that the Minmatar should be 'taught a lesson,' etc. I could on. But you get the idea.

No, I'm hoping you look beyond our own borders as a new pilot and try to see the verse from someone else's perspective. This doesn't mean roll over and get walked on. It means strengthen yourself with ideology and thoughts beyond our Empire to better act on a situation.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]