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Post Odyssey evaluation - Who is the king of PVE?

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Anti-social Tendencies
Society for Miner Education
#21 - 2013-06-23 18:42:55 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:
While you guys are arguing about the CNR (or RNI now I guess), can you give yours thoughts on the Navy Scorpion? I really like it for PvE particularly if you have a pair of them. We use them for running wh sites.

So how does the Navy Raven compare with the Navy Scorpion for level 4 missions? My ships aren't going to be as shiney nor will I be using expensive implants.



I have an SNI as well and it's great. It has a higher RoF than the RNI, but slightly less applied DPS because it's not got the 25% Explosive Radius Reduction bonus that the RNI gets. Better tank though. If I had to make a suggestion, I'd say fly the SNI if your missile and support skills are middle of the road (Lvl 3 and no lower), and the RNI if those skills are Lvl 4 -5. The SNI is far more forgiving. Either way, don't scrimp on the cash when it comes to fitting - Faction BCUs and a nice DS Booster are order of the day.

Whichever you use, both need 2 x Republic Fleet TPs, 2 x T2 Rigor and 1 x T2 Flare IMHO.


Thanks. I have two toons that fly the Scorpion. Their skills are different. One has excellent skills in everything but doesn't has Cruise V. The second has good core skills, level 3 related missile skills but does have T2 cruise. Actual dps I about the same between them.

Since they fly in wormspace, I just use meta and T2 modules. However for hisec ill look at the faction items you mention.

Thanks.

"Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#22 - 2013-06-24 12:49:40 UTC
According to pro's tiers that sustained me over the ship re balance threads...it is TFI.....

LoL.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-06-24 20:08:33 UTC
Well, the 13xx DPS out to lock range, before implants, sure is terrible.....
Blodhgarm Dethahal
8 Sins of Man
Stray Dogs.
#24 - 2013-06-24 20:25:23 UTC
Revelation for C5-C6 Escalations.
stoicfaux
#25 - 2013-06-25 04:03:16 UTC
In regards to level 4s, the MWD Mach is probably best for isk ticks and blitzing.

In regards to missiles, the CNR is nice, but Golem is better since you can loot and salvage as you go (more isk.) Raven might be better than the CNR due to RoF bonus, however, CNR has a high alpha which makes it easier to one shot things. Golem, Raven, and CNR are better than the other cruise boats because they get a missile speed buff which in Odyssey translates to almost no more DPS loss to miscounting volleys, and because the hulls have long sensor range. TFI is best in raw DPS (due to 5x sentries + cruise missiles) *if* you're dealing with NPCs that consistently spawn within your sentry (and sensor) range.

tl;dr - I doubt there's a King of PvE anymore, and if there is, the Mach probably holds it, but the gap has closed.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#26 - 2013-06-25 10:32:18 UTC
and people cried when they changed the RNI
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-06-25 13:24:33 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
In regards to level 4s, the MWD Mach is probably best for isk ticks and blitzing.

In regards to missiles, the CNR is nice, but Golem is better since you can loot and salvage as you go (more isk.) Raven might be better than the CNR due to RoF bonus, however, CNR has a high alpha which makes it easier to one shot things. Golem, Raven, and CNR are better than the other cruise boats because they get a missile speed buff which in Odyssey translates to almost no more DPS loss to miscounting volleys, and because the hulls have long sensor range. TFI is best in raw DPS (due to 5x sentries + cruise missiles) *if* you're dealing with NPCs that consistently spawn within your sentry (and sensor) range.

tl;dr - I doubt there's a King of PvE anymore, and if there is, the Mach probably holds it, but the gap has closed.


If you have to deal with Guristas, is the super low sensor strenght a problem on the Golem? My SNI gets jammed once in a while so i'd like to know what it looks like on a Golem before buying into one.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#28 - 2013-06-25 14:06:03 UTC
Gefen Orion wrote:
LEVEL 4 MISSIONS

Per 20 min / isk tick = best ship?
Mission blitzing for LP rewards = best ship?

ANOMALIES

Hubs = best ship?
Havens = best ship?
Sanctums = best ship?



For a single ship, it's hard to see how a cruise + sentry shield fitted fleet Typhoon can be beaten. But you'll need to fly it carefully it keep it alive and get the best from it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#29 - 2013-06-25 14:06:52 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
In regards to level 4s, the MWD Mach is probably best for isk ticks and blitzing.

In regards to missiles, the CNR is nice, but Golem is better since you can loot and salvage as you go (more isk.) Raven might be better than the CNR due to RoF bonus, however, CNR has a high alpha which makes it easier to one shot things. Golem, Raven, and CNR are better than the other cruise boats because they get a missile speed buff which in Odyssey translates to almost no more DPS loss to miscounting volleys, and because the hulls have long sensor range. TFI is best in raw DPS (due to 5x sentries + cruise missiles) *if* you're dealing with NPCs that consistently spawn within your sentry (and sensor) range.

tl;dr - I doubt there's a King of PvE anymore, and if there is, the Mach probably holds it, but the gap has closed.


If you have to deal with Guristas, is the super low sensor strenght a problem on the Golem? My SNI gets jammed once in a while so i'd like to know what it looks like on a Golem before buying into one.


I'm told it's a pretty severe issue with golems.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-06-25 14:23:35 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
In regards to level 4s, the MWD Mach is probably best for isk ticks and blitzing.

In regards to missiles, the CNR is nice, but Golem is better since you can loot and salvage as you go (more isk.) Raven might be better than the CNR due to RoF bonus, however, CNR has a high alpha which makes it easier to one shot things. Golem, Raven, and CNR are better than the other cruise boats because they get a missile speed buff which in Odyssey translates to almost no more DPS loss to miscounting volleys, and because the hulls have long sensor range. TFI is best in raw DPS (due to 5x sentries + cruise missiles) *if* you're dealing with NPCs that consistently spawn within your sentry (and sensor) range.

tl;dr - I doubt there's a King of PvE anymore, and if there is, the Mach probably holds it, but the gap has closed.


If you have to deal with Guristas, is the super low sensor strenght a problem on the Golem? My SNI gets jammed once in a while so i'd like to know what it looks like on a Golem before buying into one.


I'm told it's a pretty severe issue with golems.



With all Marauders except for mission grinding armor ones can fit sebos in mids but still, any fly farting in africa will jam your Marauder 2 galaxies away.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Whitehound
#31 - 2013-06-25 15:00:47 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
With all Marauders except for mission grinding armor ones can fit sebos in mids but still, any fly farting in africa will jam your Marauder 2 galaxies away.

Try using ECCMs and those African flies will be much less hassle.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#32 - 2013-06-25 15:22:14 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
With all Marauders except for mission grinding armor ones can fit sebos in mids but still, any fly farting in africa will jam your Marauder 2 galaxies away.

Try using ECCMs and those African flies will be much less hassle.



Guristas are meanies X

In a single group of 5 or 6 rats you can have 4 of them with jamming ability (duno in high sec now) and several jamming you at the same time, even my Tengu in some unrated sites (with sensor well over 35) gets jam for enough time you can't kill a simple frigate for a couple minutes which is ridiculous, doesn't happen all the time but still.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Whitehound
#33 - 2013-06-25 15:53:21 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
With all Marauders except for mission grinding armor ones can fit sebos in mids but still, any fly farting in africa will jam your Marauder 2 galaxies away.

Try using ECCMs and those African flies will be much less hassle.



Guristas are meanies X

In a single group of 5 or 6 rats you can have 4 of them with jamming ability (duno in high sec now) and several jamming you at the same time, even my Tengu in some unrated sites (with sensor well over 35) gets jam for enough time you can't kill a simple frigate for a couple minutes which is ridiculous, doesn't happen all the time but still.

Seriously, sebos do not help against ECM! (I am assuming it was a typo, because I know you are not dumb.)

Anyhow, look at the bright side. Guristas deal almost exclusively kinetic damage with missiles and fly slowly, which makes them very easy to tank. I find sensor dampeners and tracking disruptors a lot more difficult. Once you run into a group of those can you be in bigger trouble.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Ginger Barbarella
#34 - 2013-06-25 16:06:32 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
According to pro's tiers that sustained me over the ship re balance threads...it is TFI.....


Who is "pro", and what's his "tiers"?? I don't understand...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-06-25 16:38:12 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
With all Marauders except for mission grinding armor ones can fit sebos in mids but still, any fly farting in africa will jam your Marauder 2 galaxies away.

Try using ECCMs and those African flies will be much less hassle.


SNI start with a sensor strenght of 30. Adding an ECCM will put it just shy of 60 and you still get some jams.

Golem start with a sensor strenght of 14. An ECCM will put that just shy of 28. It's an improvement but still jam prone.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-06-26 20:00:54 UTC
I'm a long-time L4 runner, and have tried a number of different ships with good effect: L4 Raven, pulse geddon, blaster Astarte (slow missions, but fun!), etc. My current favorite is the MJD/AB/sentry Dominix, with tracking links, drone link augmentors and drone damage amps. The DPS isn't record breaking - about 700 with Garde II, or 520 with Warden II - but it applies it evenly from about 15km to 129km (about 90km with the Gardes). Most missions are done in well under 10 minutes, with no damage taken at all.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Cage Man
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2013-06-27 01:00:35 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
SaurianX wrote:
Well, for lvl4's I still run with my Machariel.

1100 Dps - Cap stable, 63 km falloff, capable of 562m/s with AB on.

It's pretty damn fast.


The RNI goes that fast, has the same DPS, has almost twice the range and is cheaper.



Paper dps means nothing in the game. I have used both and can say the mach will complete the mssions faster for the simple reason that it can insta pop frigs and cruisers on approach. No cruise or torp fit ship is going to do this. You can rigor fit and TP fit all you want inf you favorite fit tool, there is no way its going to practically work better. 4 grouped 800mm ac will insta pop a frig from 15km to 60km and will be ready for its next victim in 3 ish seconds. A bit slower against kinetic weak rates.. but still.
PS.. it also has a faster lock time than the other ships. Only time I don't use my mach is in amarr space as the NM is better there.
I have yet to try the TFI, but suspect it will do really well, probably better than the Navy raven purely because it can insta smaller stuff on approach with 5 x T2 sentries.

Null anoms, use a sentry carrier, will apply damage better than a Thany, even though EFT says it has more dps...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#38 - 2013-06-27 08:39:02 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
With all Marauders except for mission grinding armor ones can fit sebos in mids but still, any fly farting in africa will jam your Marauder 2 galaxies away.

Try using ECCMs and those African flies will be much less hassle.


SNI start with a sensor strenght of 30. Adding an ECCM will put it just shy of 60 and you still get some jams.

Golem start with a sensor strenght of 14. An ECCM will put that just shy of 28. It's an improvement but still jam prone.


This doesn't quite feel right to me. I'll freely admit that I learned all the jamming rats and shot them ASAP, but in my experience with a pre-boost Vargur:
- No ECCM (11): Aaaaalllllllllll the jams. Fuuuck.
- 1 ECCM (21.6): Jamming is a minimal hassle.
- 2 ECCM (39.5): Jammed once in a blue moon.

The new situation:
- No ECCM: 13.2
--- Minimal Hassle Line ---
- Jackals: 23.2
- 1 ECCM: 25.9
--- Almost Never Jammed Line ---
- Jackals, 1 ECCM: 45.4
- 2 ECCM: 47.5
- Jackals, 2 ECCM: 83.4

I think one of the silliest things in the world is to optimize half your offense away to avoid getting a 20 second jam every 25th mission. I'd probably roll with an ECCM implant set and 1 ECCM on a Marauder if I lived and fought Guristas/Caldari all the time. Otherwise I wouldn't worry about it too much.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-06-27 10:11:01 UTC
Cage Man wrote:
No cruise or torp fit ship is going to do this.

Confirming that you've never used the new CNR
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#40 - 2013-06-27 10:23:37 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
In regards to level 4s, the MWD Mach is probably best for isk ticks and blitzing.

In regards to missiles, the CNR is nice, but Golem is better since you can loot and salvage as you go (more isk.) Raven might be better than the CNR due to RoF bonus, however, CNR has a high alpha which makes it easier to one shot things. Golem, Raven, and CNR are better than the other cruise boats because they get a missile speed buff which in Odyssey translates to almost no more DPS loss to miscounting volleys, and because the hulls have long sensor range. TFI is best in raw DPS (due to 5x sentries + cruise missiles) *if* you're dealing with NPCs that consistently spawn within your sentry (and sensor) range.

tl;dr - I doubt there's a King of PvE anymore, and if there is, the Mach probably holds it, but the gap has closed.


Except that any serious mission runner will either drag a Noctis along behind them on an alt account, or sub-contract their wrecks to Pro Synergy.

The TFI does more paper DPS by about 250 over an RNI. Less applied DPS though, so I suspect the RNI would come out on top. I can't fly the Golem and suspect there'd be little actual difference between the ships now.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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