Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Okay, after reading this post I have come to the conclusion that you've got to be trolling and we're all just misguidedly continuing to feed you. The only other alternative is that you've been bumped and conned by the New Order one too many times and have finally lost your marbles. Nevertheless, I'll take your bait - as bad an idea as it may be.

Mining: I think the big thing suppressing mining is the fact that it is soul-crushingly boring and really only suitable for people who are AFK, alt-tabbed, trying to manage 10 accounts at once or not actually human - that is to say, a bot. If mining were.. you know.. interesting, then I'm almost completely certain that many more people would do it. There'd be people and more competition and it would look like an actual community.

However...

It's also worth noting that the big thing keeping minerals as cheap as they are and keeping mining low-pay (other than the complete lack of any genuine difficulty in the action of mining, which necessitates its low income) is the fact that you've got people who multibox 5, 20, 50, in some cases even 100 accounts. All of them mining in max-skill, max-yield, pimped-out Hulks with maxed-out Mindlinked Orca boosts. I'd be willing to put money down on the fact that the real flood of minerals isn't coming from rat loot but rather from the sea of multiboxed mining alts that yield billions of ISK per month.

Manufacturing: Not exactly "suppressed". There's a lot of it going on, just not necessarily much manufacture of meta 0 modules outside of what's used for exporting highsec minerals to null. Ships, ammo, T2 modules, these things are being built all the time and sold on the market for actual use. There's buckets of money to be made in manufacturing, so I don't quite see how it's "suppressed". It's worth taking a moment here to comment that Meta modules are usually not purchased for melting down. They're bought to be used on ships or used in Invention, which leads to the next point..

Research: ...I actually laughed out loud on this one. If rats didn't drop modules, research would improve? More T1 BPOs would be researched? Do you even know the first thing about research and invention?

T1 BPCs are a core requirement of the T2 invention process, and BPOs are required in order to get those BPCs. Between all the people who have their own personal BPO library for invention and the people who research BPOs with the intent of researching those BPOs to resell or make BPCs for selling to inventors, I don't think there are very many useful T1 BPOs that aren't already being cooked or copied in a research POS or slot somewhere. The only thing rats no longer dropping modules would do is drive the price of invention up when the inventor now has to buy someone's Meta 0 module or the minerals to build their own and then also buy someone else's "upgrade module".

As you can imagine if you understand economics as well as you claim, between the opportunity cost of the minerals and time required to make a meta 0 module, the market cost of the "upgrade module" and the time cost (if there is one) to "upgrade" the meta 0, invention with a Meta 4 module (which will be the only available option since meta 3 and below will become virtually unavailable, also pushing up costs) under your proposed system will actually cost noticeably more than it does now. The inventor passes that cost along just like everyone else passes their costs along to him and the end price of T2 rises again.

Your proposal would not sufficiently affect research enough to create more POS activity. POSes are a terrible thing and they're not entirely cheap to run unless you already have a strong income. There's also the matter of having roles in your corporation and/or an available moon to anchor at. People who don't already have POSes won't start putting them up just because they can manufacture meta 0 stuff; they'll just use NPC research/manu slots and wait around like they already do instead of having to pay for ice. Ice, therefore, will not actually be affected.

Incidentally, I know what "opportunity cost" is. Do you?

Actually it is in absolute terms. The question is the degree of suppression.



Given the price points between meta levels there are actually many meta items that never see use on ships. While invention does consume npc mods, the cost (including transport) many times does make them viable. If we assume that people are taking all this into account (which is entirely open for debate i admit) then there is an excess of NPC mods being traded/used for mineral content.

Just sayin'

If player ships don't drop "everything" why should NPC ships do so? That's about as silly an idea as making mission whores suffer for the sake of industrialists.

And you have proven your ignorance. Thanks for playing

I have always thought there should be a player input into creating all the items. So all those meta items would have parts dropped from rats but to get the mods you would need to put them together using a bpc created through invention. For me though this would be utterly pointless without tiericide on the mods in question though. None of them should be better than the others in all respects like it is now, instead different named items should have different advantages over straight Tech 1.

would be interesting so meta 4 guns get close to damage and fitting requirements of the t2 part were as meta 1 get the lowest fitting req and lowest damage :P

Another option would be to bump down meta 1 and 2 items to meta 0 and 1 and make T1 items meta 2. That would put them squarely in the middle of the meta pack with a named->named->T1->named->named->T2 progression for some (weapons) module types. This would help promote the usage of T1 modules over some named modules while still preserving the superiority of others over their T1 counterparts.

saying that nobody would bother with them is probably the most moronic thing ive heard today. Mission runners already loot every wreck for every piece of equipment they can get, and in fact most of them come back and salvage the missions too spending additional effort to get things out of the wrecks . . . now i wonder . . . why do they do this?

Im just under the assumption that they are selling those items to other players who manufacture them into things, or if they want to be vertically integrated, the manufacture the items themselves. So what you're saying is that mission runners would stop collecting items from wrecks to sell? especially if these items had other uses beyond just repairing.


well you think wrong . . . I know several people who mine because they like it; they think it's fun. I dont really understand them because to me that isnt fun, but he actually made a game out of how many asteroid belts he could clean out in a play session. The problem was, they cant ever make enough isk to keep their accounts plexed because mining's isk/hour is terrible.

im not saying this idea is perfect, or even very good, but it definitely deserves some consideration more than *WAH WAH WAH DONT NERF MY MISSIONS!!!!111oneoneone*

in fact this could even be a bonus to mission runners and PvPers, these items could be smaller than the modules they represent because they cant be used for mineral compression. This could actually be a mission running buff.

It's nice to have a bit of CSM support. The examples i gave in my original post were just quick examples. I don't really care how it happens, i just care about it being fixed.

The skills i mentioned were very specific to mining. You need all of the refining skills to use mining crystals. For tech I you need level 3 specific ore refine, for tech II you need level 4. You need the industry skill at level 5 as a prerequisite skill for many of the mining skills. The Leader ship skills to use the mining boost are Leadership V, Mining Foreman V, and Mining Director I to use the tech 1 module. For the Tech II you need Mining Director V which is a 5x skill, you also need this and Cybernetics at level 5 to use the Mining Foreman Mindlink. These Leadership skills are not basic pvp skills. Please don't post your guesses as a counter point. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

If you cannot be bothered to mine then you should not just be given free minerals. If you want minerals you should have to use the primary income gained from your profession as a bartering tool. In this case it would be actual currency gained instantly without having to refine or sell anything first.

If by these other "professions" you my piloting a titan, then yeah, you have mining beat. Good job pointing out that flying caps are the SP peak that keeps on going.

Tank and combat drone skills are not needed for mining. They are needed for combat. And because there's going to be at least a slight amount of combat mining anything then you're going to be forced to train up a certain amount of those skills.

Based on the markets for the Named modules and the faction/deadspace/officer modules it is overwhelmingly clear that the volume of named modules dropped is much much much higher. If you don't understand this concept then i don't know if you have the cognitive powers to understand very much at all. I guess that's why you can't find "empirical content" in this thread.

This is called sarcasm. Allegedly it exists in all languages.

Troll or not, this is the point of this thread. Everything is less rewarding than combat. Combat is supposed to be the resource sink, not the source!!!

In case you havent figured it out yet opportunity cost is basically what you miss out on by making a choice. ie: You have enough money to buy a Bicycle or a Snowboard. If you buy the bike your opportunity cost is winter activities. If you buy the snowboard your opportunity cost is summer activities. In the example given earlier he was saying that by not making the change you're costing the jobs people would have by being able to make the items instead of them just falling out of the sky.