These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The tutorials give the wrong impressions about the game

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aelisha
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2013-06-24 11:02:18 UTC
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
I'm also new, about 2 weeks I think. I'be done the tutorials, the careers, the SoE epic, and now I'm basicslly pootling around doing a bit of mining here, a few dilevery/security missions there, in Frigates. I'm currently at 39mil ISK, but 30mil of that I won in the lottery in a chat channel I frequent.

I like the fact that Eve can take a while longer than 'NAO!' to achieve things. And the journey is great fun.

If you can fly Cruisers already, I suspect your Frigate skills are worse than mine (I don't have the skills for Cruisers, but I've invested that time into jury-rigging and other stuff which can improve my Frigate efficiency.

I'm coming to realise that Eve isn't made up of a level progression illustrated by size of ship - rather, as you progress in SP and ISK, you build up a fleet of ships of your own, and you ise them depending on need.

A good example happened yesterday. I was on a group mining op. loads of Retrievers, an Orca, a frieghter, and a few Ventures, mine included. We were stripping belts with the rule that if we got to a belt and there was already someone there, we'd move on - there were plenty of belts in the system, it's nice to be nice, etc.

My little vent has 25% the ore cap of a ret, and its mining lasers are slower, but because it's a much faster vessel than the 'better' mining barges, I could quickly warp to a belt and report back 'clear' or 'already occupied', saving the fleet cumbersome pointless warps snd realigns etc.

Eve's not about getting a bigger hammer. It's about collecting a full set of appropriate tools.



Quoting because the truth must be heard. Why you're not already in a player corp, I do not know, but this mentality will serve you well when you find/start one.

CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange

Intaki Reborn

Independent Capsuleer
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#62 - 2013-06-24 11:03:51 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
With 600k SP, you probably don't have the skills to fly a cruiser well.

Consider the following advice: Don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

You can't afford to lose cruisers, so it follows that... ?


You can put a competent frigate fit together for under 1m ISK.


yeah everyone tells me that but no-one says how to make the money to recover their costs.


I guess what he means is that you shouldn't be looking at cruisers yet. Stick to flying Frigates and Destroyers while your support skills (ie: electronics, engineering and mechanics Skills) improve and you have trained up your cruiser skill to 4. Trust me when I say that you still have a lot to learn about small ships, and I don't mean your character skills.

1.5M SP is probably a good threshold to start flying a cruiser, depending on exactly which kind you want.

What ships and weapons are you training in at the moment?


Training for mining barges (got the small one but can't afford the strip miners) and now I'm training salavaging. Actually is seems to be working.

Your listening to advice now, that is a good start. Here is a tip then for you, train up to use tractor beams alongside your salvagers, fit up a destroyer with 5 tractor beams and 3 salvagers fitted. Blitz a couple of missions in your combat ship, then dock up and refit into your salvaging destroyer, then go back and salvage and loot the missions. Remember you only have 2 hours before the loot expires.

Pretty basic way to make isk, but it will be a good start for you.
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
#63 - 2013-06-24 11:25:07 UTC
I know what this guy is going through, I jumped my Moros in to lowsec with 96mil SP and died! IS THERE NO GOD?!
Knights Armament
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-06-24 19:34:44 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
I know what this guy is going through, I jumped my Moros in to lowsec with 96mil SP and died! IS THERE NO GOD?!


it happens

Click here to get something special for new players, an EvE Trial Invitation extremely rare, high quality.
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-06-24 19:41:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Quote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game


I set the goal of becoming the best Megathron pilot in EVE. That was three years ago and I am still learning new things but I feel I am getting there.

Set a goal, work towards it and don't expect it to happen quickly.


And now he has an entire doctrine based around that ship named after him by the largest warfaring coalition in EVE

what dreams may come

no not believin
Zeus Zed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-06-24 20:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Zed
Truth be told, the "tutorials" in eve are not really tutorials in the common sense of the word, but rather "profession demos" that help you choose something to do in this game. The main thing a new player has to understand us that the FUN in the game comes a lot later, when you have all core skills to V. But a new player can not possibly know what the core skills really mean, or whether he or she should train x versus y - no matter how much reading he or she does. Also, a new player can not possibly understand how good a rifter or a megathron really is, and of course has no idea what all this clutter in the market is.

One way for CCP to fix this would be to offer pre-set skill queues for the various professions. Also CCP could do away with the zero sense naming of the various ship equipment. Most importantly, CCP should really consider giving a serious sp boost in all newbie pilots, at least k only for the core flying skills (nav, mech, electronics).

There is obviously a major problem with new players having to wait for a long time before doing something enjoyable in this game, which kills all enthusiasm. And it's very unfair, because eve is really a fantastic game. If CCP wants to fix that problem, they have to take some action, now.
Haoibuni
Mish 4 free
#67 - 2013-06-24 22:33:37 UTC
Here's some pointers, OP.

Join Red versus Blue for a few months. They will give you some free ships to PvP with whilst your skills train up. Be chatty and friendly and a guy will probably just bung you 50mill (but don't ever ask for it).

or

Join a n00b friendly 0.0 corp. There are a few (but not many so you will have to search).

Go to their ratting systems and get chatting. Tell the guys ratting that you are new and you can salvage their anoms once they have done them. Tell them your poor and have no noctis and ask can you borrow one.
Someone will take pity on you and lend you it, and they wont care if you lose it cos 90mill is nothing to many people (just don't jump system with it, fit an i stab or 2, watch intel and you will be fine... probably)

Then after a few hours of doing that you can buy your own noctis and carry on looting / salvaging for a few weeks whilst your skills get better.

This is one of the fastest ways to be making 30mill an hour as a low SP dude.

After a few months you will be able to fly a dictor (3months) or a logistics (4months) if you train specifically for it and you can pvp for free as those classes of ship are usually fully reimbursed.

If you take the initiative and are chatty and friendly you will find people will help you. They will bung you isk, ships or lend you ships. Or if you fly certain types of ship, your alliance "pays" you for it.

There you go. Eve's not quite so hard now, is it.
Short Stack122
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-06-24 22:39:35 UTC
been playing for around 4 months right now.

trained up my mining/indy skills to a point where i can now refine and sell the basic(high sec) ores for a profit right now. it was FAR from easy and quick. sure, i could fly a retriever and eventually a hulk/mack, but that did not mean i could make money from the mining i did. i only sold minerals when i NEEDed the money and stock piled the rest. then i got to a point where i could make a profit, and sold all my minerals for 400m or so and bough a bunch of pvp ships that i couldnt afford to lose and really couldnt fly but i wanted them. expensive lesson learned.

now i have had plenty of helpful corp mates along the way and i HIGHLY suggest you join the new player chat channel and let some people know that you are a new mining player looking for a home. worst thing that can happen is that you find a crappy home and have to move again, it happens from time to time. they will get you set up, help teach you some of the skills you should probably train and different ways to mine and pvp in basic ships. just remember that a lot of the players here have been playing for 5,6,7 or a few players, 10 years. they have LOTS better skills, expirence and tactics that you do right now. talk to them, learn from them and find out what you enjoy.

lots of people have given good advice in this thread thus far, read through, find what you enjoy and take some of the advice. else wise, check out the evelopedia and read up on some of the different branches you can choose to make money in.

hope you find something you enjoy, fly safe.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#69 - 2013-06-24 22:51:39 UTC
Paul, it's normal to make a slow progression through the ship classes. Take your time, try out different activities, and have fun.

The people who PLEX up into a BS instantly are missing an important part of the Eve experience.

Really, don't grind missions for 6 hours a day. If you end up sticking with eve, you'll probably be here for years, there's no need to rush, pursue knowledge and experience, isk will come later.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-06-24 22:54:01 UTC
It's not the destination, but the journey that drives this game. Skill points and ISK be damned.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#71 - 2013-06-24 23:29:10 UTC
How to get to level 2 missions FAST!

1. Do a mission or two. Your standing will be like 0.01
2. Train Connections.

Connections Level 0: 0.1 base standing yields effective standing = 0.01
Connections Level 1: 0.1 base standing yields effective standing = 0.4096
Connections Level 2: 0.1 base standing yields effective standing = 0.8092
Connections Level 3: 0.1 base standing yields effective standing = 1.2088 *\o/* Level 2 Missions
Short Stack122
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-06-24 23:54:09 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
Confirming that it is impossible to move to nullsec and engage in huge fleet battles and small gang warfare within the first few months of playing.
http://401k.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1600685

Just a hint though. mining and missions are a fairly poor way of making isk. People are not flooding you with specific isk making methods as more competition would lower their income. The tutorials are a guide to the various toys available in the sandbox. They are not a guide on how to use those tools.


confirming that you can be in null fleets within the first few months.

being useful isnt about doing the most damage every time. some times its about knowing how to fly a t1 frig with a warp disrupter and stasis web.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#73 - 2013-06-24 23:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Zeus Zed wrote:
Truth be told, the "tutorials" in eve are not really tutorials in the common sense of the word, but rather "profession demos" that help you choose something to do in this game. The main thing a new player has to understand us that the FUN in the game comes a lot later, when you have all core skills to V. But a new player can not possibly know what the core skills really mean, or whether he or she should train x versus y - no matter how much reading he or she does. Also, a new player can not possibly understand how good a rifter or a megathron really is, and of course has no idea what all this clutter in the market is.
Core skills are covered by the certificate system, namely Core Capacitor, Competency, Fitting, Integrity, Navigation and Targeting, all of which list the skills required to attain various levels of achievement, basic level is good enough for newbies, although standard is the minimum recommended if you plan on sticking around. Other certificates cover more specialised things such as defence etc. If you're confused about what skills to train as a newbie, check out Tippias Newbie Skill Plan, it's aimed at creating a competent character that can effectively use cheap ships in a variety of scenarios.

Quote:
One way for CCP to fix this would be to offer pre-set skill queues for the various professions. Also CCP could do away with the zero sense naming of the various ship equipment. Most importantly, CCP should really consider giving a serious sp boost in all newbie pilots, at least k only for the core flying skills (nav, mech, electronics).
Pre set skill queues are a terrible idea, the joy of Eve is finding your own path, not blindly following the highway. The module naming at least follows a pattern now, many of us hated it when CCP changed the names to the new schema but they make more sense than they used to in many instances.

Quote:
There is obviously a major problem with new players having to wait for a long time before doing something enjoyable in this game, which kills all enthusiasm. And it's very unfair, because eve is really a fantastic game. If CCP wants to fix that problem, they have to take some action, now.
What you're suggesting is nothing new, in the past newbies got a 2x boost to training up to a certain SP limit (1.5mill or so IIRC), but we also had learning skills which were a massive time sink and each races starting attributes were different. Newbies now start off with much better character attributes and a significant head start in SP. Eve is a fantastic game because it doesn't hold your hand, and it doesn't give you goals. In many ways it's one of the last truly open ended games, because the only goals in Eve are ones that you set for yourself, here you get to write your own story as you progress towards them.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
DelBoy Trades
Trotter Independent Traders.
Disaster Strikes
#74 - 2013-06-24 23:54:47 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
No wonder most people only play this game for a month

I'm sorry, but you have the complete wrong attitude to be playing this game, it's not for you, don't whine, just leave.

Damn nature, you scary!
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#75 - 2013-06-25 00:03:14 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:

fleeting up stopped being dangerous (had to do with the way at war flagging was inherited for gang members) before I started playing EVE back in 2008.

If anyone tells you that joining fleets can allow fleet members to shoot you he is using horrendously outdated information.


I said nothing about Fleet members.....

It's still entirely possible to lure people into areas where they will get blown up.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#76 - 2013-06-25 00:08:37 UTC
Setaceous wrote:

It's still entirely possible to lure people into areas where they will get blown up.

Fleet warping a bunch of frigates and destroyers in to a lvl 4 Recon 3 of 3 springs to mind

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tyrton
Imbecile MIiss Managment and Disasters
Intergalactic Interstellar Interns
#77 - 2013-06-25 00:17:50 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Caldari Citizen 20120308 wrote:



It feels like that yes, join faction warfare and do offensive/defensive plexing (novice sites) and earn lp -- use that lp to purchase/sell faction things on the market. Good income along with some pvp action. If you don't want the pvp action, just warp off until the hostile(s) leave?

0.0 for ratting / exploration


because every PvP combat I've run across the enemy have jammed my warp drive then shot me.

Also doesn't faction warfare destroy your standing with other factions. I don't want to walk off even more of the map.



I believe that is the essence of PVP stop the other guy from leaving until you kill it.

And you said you did not get experience.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#78 - 2013-06-25 00:23:19 UTC
Quote:
Training for mining barges (got the small one but can't afford the strip miners) and now I'm training salavaging. Actually is seems to be working


Confirming that salvaging is the best path to riches for newbros. It requires all of about 4 days training to get decent at it, you can do it effectively in a cheap destroyer, and it makes a totally disproportionate amount of money if you get some mission runners to follow after.

The same is also true of Faction Warfare, but I would highly advise joining a reputable corp before getting into that so they can show you the ropes, otherwise it's just a good way to lose ships. But the rewards there are also fairly good. Better than salvaging overall, but much more risky.

Someone else suggested RvB. This is a great idea. You won't make a lot of money in RvB, but you will get some serious gudfites, and it's a great way to have fun while skilling up for larger ship classes.

The last thing I would mention. Don't think that because you're stuck in a frigate for now, that you are gimped. Frigates are probably the most fun ship class in EVE, with the most nuances and subtleties of combat.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zeus Zed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-06-25 07:28:06 UTC
Haoibuni wrote:
Here's some pointers, OP.

Join Red versus Blue for a few months. They will give you some free ships to PvP with whilst your skills train up. Be chatty and friendly and a guy will probably just bung you 50mill (but don't ever ask for it).

or

Join a n00b friendly 0.0 corp. There are a few (but not many so you will have to search).

Go to their ratting systems and get chatting. Tell the guys ratting that you are new and you can salvage their anoms once they have done them. Tell them your poor and have no noctis and ask can you borrow one.
Someone will take pity on you and lend you it, and they wont care if you lose it cos 90mill is nothing to many people (just don't jump system with it, fit an i stab or 2, watch intel and you will be fine... probably)

Then after a few hours of doing that you can buy your own noctis and carry on looting / salvaging for a few weeks whilst your skills get better.

This is one of the fastest ways to be making 30mill an hour as a low SP dude.

After a few months you will be able to fly a dictor (3months) or a logistics (4months) if you train specifically for it and you can pvp for free as those classes of ship are usually fully reimbursed.

If you take the initiative and are chatty and friendly you will find people will help you. They will bung you isk, ships or lend you ships. Or if you fly certain types of ship, your alliance "pays" you for it.

There you go. Eve's not quite so hard now, is it.


The original post was about the TUTORIALS. So you are irrelevant.

Also, a newbie understands less than 10% of your post. "Anoms", "ratting", "noctis", "stab", "dictor" and so on. And, most importantly, why one would want to fly a Noctis or a dictor. Before seeing and experiencing the big picture, there's no way for a new player to understand the value of the ships you mentioned (and the advice you offer which is of course very valuable).
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
#80 - 2013-06-25 11:21:58 UTC
Don't think I have ever ran out of money since my third month into this game, if you got creative you might actually make some isk.