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NPC loot underminds the mining and production professions!!

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#21 - 2013-06-23 03:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

I guess what you're trying to do here is remove all drops and give miners the absolute monopoly on mineral acquisition? Because fleets of botted retrievers don't already make plenty of ISK, right?

I'll ask you one other question: What about pirate faction, deadspace and officer modules? Should those cease to drop as well, simply because you want a totalitarian death-grip on the mineral trade?



Aren't you cute?

Mission runners are subsidized by the efforts of people that mine. Miners are paid less because you're a greedy rat murderer. Take that welfare boy! ;)

So according to your reasoning, asteroids should drop salvage and give an ISK reward, right? And anyone who does trade should get free moon goo with each transaction? That sounds reasonable to you?


As for dead space modules etc, that is solved by the OP. Instead of getting the item outright, you instead would get an 'upgrade' as stated in the OP. Could also be something like, a 'broken' item. and to use it, it has to first be repaired. And to repair it, you right click, choose the new option "fix" and it consumes a meta 0 module that needs to be present in the hangar.

Personally I mission more than I mine, so it's not like this idea is a big money maker for me, so get off your greedy little happy horse and think about health of the game before you think about the health of your own space wallet.


Your post breaks down like this:

Quote:
Ad hominem

False cause, ad hominem, ad hominem.

Strawman, strawman.

Block of text in the middle where you answer only the part of my post you find convenient.

Anecdotal, ad hominem, appeal to emotion.


Please try again. Less fallacies this time - or more, if you want. I'm learning how to spot them so I can avoid them myself.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-06-23 04:15:12 UTC
It's a decent idea and it has been suggested before. The effect on mission runners would be negligible and it would likely do wonders to stimulate entry level manufacturing (which is essentially dead thanks to the flood of meta 1-4 mods spawned from NPC loot).

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#23 - 2013-06-23 04:30:24 UTC
How do you propose to get the meta lvl items then? grab them from sites that drop blueprint copies of them?

Not many options for reinserting them into the game if they are taken from their major farming area, mission rats...

Easy enough fix on the isk side though... add 50k bounty per ship? covers the cost and more of most modules that are dropped
Adunh Slavy
#24 - 2013-06-23 04:40:08 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Please try again. Less fallacies this time - or more, if you want. I'm learning how to spot them so I can avoid them myself.



ROFL, look at your post then get back to me

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#25 - 2013-06-23 04:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Please try again. Less fallacies this time - or more, if you want. I'm learning how to spot them so I can avoid them myself.



ROFL, look at your post then get back to me


Tu quoque! I was hoping I'd get to point out one of those today.

Now, if you're all done, mind showing me what part of my post I'm supposed to look at?
Adunh Slavy
#26 - 2013-06-23 04:46:00 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
How do you propose to get the meta lvl items then? grab them from sites that drop blueprint copies of them?

Not many options for reinserting them into the game if they are taken from their major farming area, mission rats...

Easy enough fix on the isk side though... add 50k bounty per ship? covers the cost and more of most modules that are dropped



When a rat drops something it drops a "broken" item. To fix the broken item, you have in your hangar, the broken item and a meta 0 item of the same type. Right click the broken one and pick "fix", and poof.

For instance, instead of a rat dropping "Limited Energized EM Membrane 1" it drops a "Broken Limited Energized EM Membrane 1" Now to fix it, or 'upgrade' used by the OP, you place a meta 0 "Energized EM Membrande 1" in your hangar, right click the "broken" item and pick fix. It consumes both the broken item and the meta 0 item and results in a functional "Limited Energized EM Membrane 1"

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Adunh Slavy
#27 - 2013-06-23 04:46:22 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:


Please try again. Less fallacies this time - or more, if you want. I'm learning how to spot them so I can avoid them myself.



ROFL, look at your post then get back to me


Tu quoque!



Your troll powers are weak and boring.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-06-23 04:46:31 UTC
OP is a bit hyperbolic and/or hysterical.



But it's an interesting notion.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#29 - 2013-06-23 04:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Adunh Slavy wrote:


Your troll powers are weak and boring.


Probably because I'm not trolling.


mynnna wrote:
But it's an interesting notion.

I might be a little more interested if OP hadn't basically said "All PvE in the game should take an income nerf on top of this" by mocking the first person to suggest that bounties be raised to compensate.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-06-23 04:52:12 UTC
supernova ranger wrote:
How do you propose to get the meta lvl items then? grab them from sites that drop blueprint copies of them?

Not many options for reinserting them into the game if they are taken from their major farming area, mission rats...


If the change is simply that NPC loot drops change from the item itself, to instead dropping the components needed to create the item when combined with the meta 0 module, then very little changes.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Adunh Slavy
#31 - 2013-06-23 04:54:16 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

If the change is simply that NPC loot drops change from the item itself, to instead dropping the components needed to create the item when combined with the meta 0 module, then very little changes.



Very true. The mission runner can still make money from these drops. The value will be derived from the meta level and not the minerals.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#32 - 2013-06-23 05:13:44 UTC
Awesome idea. One addendum: We're going to make asteroid and ice fields "free-fire" zones (no CONCORD).

Sound good? Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-06-23 08:16:20 UTC
Thinking about it, what if loot drops were changed from modules to components for all wrecks, including those of other players?

It's always struck me as a little odd that I can riddle an opponent's hull with gunfire and missiles until their ship explodes in a fireball, but that half the equipment survives totally intact and can be picked up and used immediately.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2013-06-23 09:03:08 UTC
mynnna wrote:
OP is a bit hyperbolic and/or hysterical.


But it's an interesting notion.

I am an industrialist. And the recent ore redistribution in null sec seems to have had no impact on mineral market trends. Though it may just be delayed market reaction(quite delayed) it would seem as though high end minerals are actually taking a dive. The most likely reason i can think of is because of high sec generated supply of high end minerals. This is why i believe mining in general suffers. This is why everyone says "forget mining, do combat and run missions or rat" because not only do you generate isk immediately, but you also generate meta gear, salvage, minerals, LP and occasionally extra rare drops depending on what you are killing. Then, the risk is extremely minimal and if you do decided to pvp you don't have to create a whole new character or account because you train the same skills!

Training to be a miner has an incredibly high skill ceiling to "Specialize" into. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to have all minerals in the game come from that one profession. All salvage in the game comes from combat alone and the skill ceiling for salvaging is pretty minimal. Based on the chart of Harvest > Build > Destroy you could see the 3 main professions in this game as Mining, Production and Combat. And I may be misinterpreting this, but I think of the "Destroy" part of the cycle is specifically in regards to player built items. This means with PVE "combat" you can harvest minerals and bypass production while actually destroying nothing. So technically PVE combat is mining & production all rolled into one with the added bonus of instant isk gratification, LP and lower training time to pvp.

Personally I feel that this should either be fixed, or the skill ceiling should be lowered dramatically so miners can change to the combat path without wasting years of training. Well maybe this part was a bit hysterical....

or was it? ;)

Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Awesome idea. One addendum: We're going to make asteroid and ice fields "free-fire" zones (no CONCORD).

Sound good? Twisted

I'm already in Null, this would only positively affect me. But on the other hand, your idea is also an Awesome idea! Using your logic, why don't we just make all missions "free-fire" zones (no CONCORD). Or we could make all of high sec space "free-fire" zones (no CONCORD) as well!

But seriously, the next time you try to reply to a post, please stop yourself. For your own sake.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-06-23 09:34:20 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
"Gun mining" was already addressed when meta 0 modules were removed from rat loot. This had the secondary effect of also nerfing mission/ratting income even further, as the supply of modules and/or minerals yielded from PvE was decreased. Lately, between nerfed mission rewards, nerfed bounties and what loot does still drop, the only way for missions to be profitable is if you grind them for hours like some kind of bot.

I guess what you're trying to do here is remove all drops and give miners the absolute monopoly on mineral acquisition? Because fleets of botted retrievers don't already make plenty of ISK, right?

I'll ask you one other question: What about pirate faction, deadspace and officer modules? Should those cease to drop as well, simply because you want a totalitarian death-grip on the mineral trade?


This is pretty funny. You're saying that Miners, let me emphasize here, MINERs shouldn't have monopoly on MINERal acquisition? You also think that running missions should get you isk (in faucet form), minerals, modules, LP and more isk(also in faucet form)? You think that miners who only get ore/minerals from their extremely SP intensive profession that does not overlap any other profession in any way should not have the sole access to minerals?

The reason mission running is not profitable is for many reasons. First, lots and lots of people/bots do it. Because so many people do it LP and the majority of salvage are basically worthless. There is absolutely no competition between mission runners, you each get your own semi-instance that is all to yourself where miners have to compete for limited resources especially in high sec where even the lowest end ore can be wiped out of a system at any given time. Though they could go run "mining missions" they would have to deal with rats occasionally and have to switch ships back and forth and would need extra skill points in combat to even be able to do that. And not only that but high sec miners do not have access to high end minerals at all, while mission runners actually do! And potentially unlimited amounts of them with their unlimited instanced mission sites! And don't get me started on hauling ore!

If you think mission running is not profitable without hours of bot-like grinding, try the mining profession.

As for faction/Deadspace/officer mods, I don't care if they continue to drop like normal. If you want to reprocess those for the minerals then go right ahead.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-06-23 12:03:36 UTC
I wonder how he'd respond to the alternate idea that mining should also grant LP, salvage, loot, and bounties?

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#37 - 2013-06-23 13:22:26 UTC
This forum needs troll countermeasures... Forced biomassing would be my first suggestion.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2013-06-23 13:40:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
erutpar ambient,

i dont like the tone of your post it makes me want to punch you somehow :P Twisted

Now to your idea. Why ok im up for the change that only damaged modules would drop if meta and they can be repaired with using meta 0 items that i would support. Maybe in a way that there wont ever be a loot drop (full triangle) but with salvaging.
But i think when u salvage a wreck that way u also deserve to get some minerals or components which can be refined into building minerals. If you think about it you would maybe understand my reasoning. That destroyed ship was built by either players or npc shipyards so they needed minerals to build them. And no it shouldnt be as much minerals as the ship would have originally cost to build because reactor overload would reduce a good portion of the minerals put in the original hull through to vaporizing them.

Regards

Jeanne-Luise Argenau

EDIT: even if its a troll looting mechanics could get another look at
Kraal Utrecht
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2013-06-23 14:34:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kraal Utrecht
My RADICAL idea is to transform wrecks from containers to asteroid-like entities "mineable" with salvage drones and salvagers - gained "ore" would be scrap metal with possibility of scrap modules depending on salvaging skills/ship/tech.
So similar like now but not "salvaging failed" it never fails, it would just give you scrap instead of salvaged part...
Size and scrap-value of such wreck would be proportional to size of ship it was before returning some small % of its mineral value.

When wreck was completely salvaged - container will pop like now.
To get into container before clearing wreck - use scanning module that would reveal still usable parts.
Containers ownership - no change.
Wreck ownership - no change.

To simulate "drifting away" and being devoured by vast universe - such wreck will loose its mineral value over time.
Wreck will drift away with the container and modules inside.

Key phrase -"No instant gratification beyond ISK".

So it would be interesting to see armies of salvagers rushing to great battlefields waiting for the silent screams to fade. Like ravens feasting on flesh of fallen warriors. :D
Fights between salvagers who will get more of some juicy part of fallen titan or carrier maybe?

...
My imagination running wild again...
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-06-23 15:01:42 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
mynnna wrote:
OP is a bit hyperbolic and/or hysterical.


But it's an interesting notion.

I am an industrialist. And the recent ore redistribution in null sec seems to have had no impact on mineral market trends. Though it may just be delayed market reaction(quite delayed) it would seem as though high end minerals are actually taking a dive. The most likely reason i can think of is because of high sec generated supply of high end minerals.

It's only been a few weeks since the expansion launched and furthermore, most of nullsec is currently at war. And on top of THAT, highsec mining is still the vast majority of mining by volume in the game... I'd have to go back and dig through Diagoras' twitter feed to find the relevant tweets, but its not like low end supply was suddenly increased by 50% or something.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal