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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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It's about time Autopilot warp to zero.

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Jita Alt666
#41 - 2011-11-08 01:23:50 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Autopilot's 15km warpin might suck but it allows for entry-level pirating in highsec.
You can gank all those haulers using autopilot quite easily.

This is not broken, this is intended.

If you want to avoid being blown up while you're snoozing, i suggest you sit in your pilots chair and fly your ship



LOL, "a broken feature is intented for the abuse of the broken feature therefore should not be fixed"


Please explain how shooting someone who is using autopilot feature is abusing said feature?
Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-11-08 01:23:55 UTC
Remove autopilot all together. Enough of this game is played automatically already.
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#43 - 2011-11-08 01:25:37 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Its not a broken feature. You are misquoting me, massively. Do you work for Fox News? I said, its NOT a broken feature, so dont quote me saying "a broken feature is..." because thats -not- what i said.

It is intended yes, so the lazy pilots are left at risk, As it should be. Lazy truck drivers are more likely to run themselves off the road. Lazy Ship Captains floating past Somalia are left at risk as well. This is pretty basic concept.

Your only reasoning for making autopilot warp-to-0 is that you're a lazy highsec noob and want the game to play for you, while you do other things


No, travelling is an incredibly booring chore. It's like being at work with a super slow computer trying to do some spreadheets: click, wait, click, wait, click, wait... Doesn't require any skill what so ever, and thus can not in any way be classed as playing a game.

And supposedly there's a reward, which is supposedly that you get there sooner. I see it differently. If you don't do it, you get punished by increasing your travel time.

And you say too lazy highsec noob that wants the game to play for you, and you use real life analogies. Oh dear. You know what I think, I think it's the lazy suicide gankers who don't want to expend any effort in getting their ganks.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-11-08 01:25:58 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:

Ok then:
Why do I have to log in and adjust my PI extractors when it would be just as easy for them to be coded to find the highest yield position within range? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to position my cyno alts into the destination system and 5km off of the undock of a station when it could be easily coded to have NPC cyno beacons on stations? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to monitor market prices and can't program in a price range that auto updates with other bidders? Oh its a time sink.


PI extractors: because it takes skill to find the optimal layout or positions etc.

Cyno alt 5km: broken game

Monitor market prices: intellectually challenging game is intellectually challenging



But manualpiloting what should be the autopilot feature is braindead, repetitive, boring, useless.

Other than creating "ganking oppotunities" but it is of course just an emergent gameplay and not a design intention.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-11-08 01:26:19 UTC
Need a new skill.. 10x multiplier

Have it do the same thing to AP's warp distance as Margins does for escrow. :p
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-11-08 01:27:21 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Autopilot's 15km warpin might suck but it allows for entry-level pirating in highsec.
You can gank all those haulers using autopilot quite easily.

This is not broken, this is intended.

If you want to avoid being blown up while you're snoozing, i suggest you sit in your pilots chair and fly your ship



LOL, "a broken feature is intented for the abuse of the broken feature therefore should not be fixed"


Please explain how shooting someone who is using autopilot feature is abusing said feature?


Emergent gameplay is emergent.

When the emergent gameplay is emerged from a flaw in the game mechanics it is automatically an abuse of a flaw.
Shian Yang
#47 - 2011-11-08 01:28:03 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Boosted reaction wouldn't save you from warping into each other anyway so there really is no difference.


Greetings capsuleer,

I am sorry to hear of your deficiencies as a pilot. There are several schools available to novice capsuleers that assist them in learning the requisite skills to handle their ships. I have had much joy with the Pator Tech School, but I believe other empires run their own schools.

I know that I've never hit another ship when warping to zero nor when using the autopilot and sublighting in from 15km; this suggests to me the CONCORD rules are sensible.
Vigdis Thorisdottir
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-11-08 01:28:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Vigdis Thorisdottir
Obviously, the problem here is that hauling goods across long distances is extremely boring. Hence the desire to flip on the autopilot and go do something else.

As a solution to this problem, I propose that it be made easier to pirate in highsec space. I'll leave the specifics to others, but obviously there is a large segment of players who feel they need more incentive to actually play the game. Travel should be exciting too.
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2011-11-08 01:29:00 UTC
Actually CCP, why not make a Autopilot skillbook:

L0 = warp to 15
L1 = warp to 12
L2 = warp to 9
L3 = warp to 6
L4 = warp to 3
L5= warp to zero from jumping zone
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2011-11-08 01:29:39 UTC
Fille Balle wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Its not a broken feature. You are misquoting me, massively. Do you work for Fox News? I said, its NOT a broken feature, so dont quote me saying "a broken feature is..." because thats -not- what i said.

It is intended yes, so the lazy pilots are left at risk, As it should be. Lazy truck drivers are more likely to run themselves off the road. Lazy Ship Captains floating past Somalia are left at risk as well. This is pretty basic concept.

Your only reasoning for making autopilot warp-to-0 is that you're a lazy highsec noob and want the game to play for you, while you do other things


No, travelling is an incredibly booring chore. It's like being at work with a super slow computer trying to do some spreadheets: click, wait, click, wait, click, wait... Doesn't require any skill what so ever, and thus can not in any way be classed as playing a game.

And supposedly there's a reward, which is supposedly that you get there sooner. I see it differently. If you don't do it, you get punished by increasing your travel time.

And you say too lazy highsec noob that wants the game to play for you, and you use real life analogies. Oh dear. You know what I think, I think it's the lazy suicide gankers who don't want to expend any effort in getting their ganks.

Yes, traveling 20 or 30 jumps through highsec is boring.
*ding ding ding* highsec is boring.

Now that we've figured that out, we can maybe grow a pair and check out lowsec and nullsec. 5 jumps through 0.0 space in your hauler isnt as boring. This is where the real eve game is.

Have you ever played Guild Wars? Do you remember Pre-Sear? That is GW equivelent of HIghsec. The game doesnt start untill you are in low/nullsec. If you want to choose to remain in highsec for years and years (or forever) You will need to learn to love it the way it is, and stop crying to have YOUR gameplay style override everyone else's.

This game was designed ground up to be hostile, and unforgiving. If you cant handle that, you need to find a different game.

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP
Black Dranzer
#51 - 2011-11-08 01:31:53 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Why is warping to 15 a good idea then?

Its not. Its not supposed to be.
Everyone tells you, dont use autopilot. Its because warping to 15 and slowboating to the gate is a BAD IDEA.

This option however, is left open for people who want to take that risk still. Consider it a gift. If it wasnt warp-to-15 there would be no autopilot at all. Enjoy the bonus its giving you already.

Okay, here's the problem with that.

Autopilot-to-15 existed back when the closest you could warp to the gate without bookmarks was.. surprise.. 15. And back then, people actually used autopilot because, hey, there was a reason to use it! Now, there isn't, except for a niche. Don't give me all this talk of "risk". Being AFK is a risk. This change would primarily benefit people who are attentive and at their keyboard. You'd see a barely noticable decrease in people autopiloting to 15 in exchange for an enormous jump in AFK pilots either flying through space helpless to adapt or else sitting AFK at their destination.

Even if you're a pirate, this change is profitable to you.

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Jita Alt666
#52 - 2011-11-08 01:36:21 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:

Ok then:
Why do I have to log in and adjust my PI extractors when it would be just as easy for them to be coded to find the highest yield position within range? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to position my cyno alts into the destination system and 5km off of the undock of a station when it could be easily coded to have NPC cyno beacons on stations? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to monitor market prices and can't program in a price range that auto updates with other bidders? Oh its a time sink.


PI extractors: because it takes skill to find the optimal layout or positions etc.

Cyno alt 5km: broken game

Monitor market prices: intellectually challenging game is intellectually challenging



But manualpiloting what should be the autopilot feature is braindead, repetitive, boring, useless.

Other than creating "ganking oppotunities" but it is of course just an emergent gameplay and not a design intention.


Moving PI extractors requires no skill
Monitoring market prices is not intellectually stimulating
Your logic for not having a cyno beacon on NPC stations is two random disconnected words.

All of these things are time sinks. Flying by auto pilot is a greater time sink than clinking the buttons to manual fly.
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-11-08 01:38:27 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Why is warping to 15 a good idea then?

Its not. Its not supposed to be.
Everyone tells you, dont use autopilot. Its because warping to 15 and slowboating to the gate is a BAD IDEA.

This option however, is left open for people who want to take that risk still. Consider it a gift. If it wasnt warp-to-15 there would be no autopilot at all. Enjoy the bonus its giving you already.

Okay, here's the problem with that.

Autopilot-to-15 existed back when the closest you could warp to the gate without bookmarks was.. surprise.. 15. And back then, people actually used autopilot because, hey, there was a reason to use it! Now, there isn't, except for a niche. Don't give me all this talk of "risk". Being AFK is a risk. This change would primarily benefit people who are attentive and at their keyboard. You'd see a barely noticable decrease in people autopiloting to 15 in exchange for an enormous jump in AFK pilots either flying through space helpless to adapt or else sitting AFK at their destination.

Even if you're a pirate, this change is profitable to you.



Even if the change is not profitable to pirates it is still a change that should happen.

The reasons is that warping-to-15 is simply an outdated funtion and should have been brought in line with other kinds of warps which allow you to warp to zero.

Autopilot should warp to zero. Simple as that.
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2011-11-08 01:39:23 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:

Ok then:
Why do I have to log in and adjust my PI extractors when it would be just as easy for them to be coded to find the highest yield position within range? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to position my cyno alts into the destination system and 5km off of the undock of a station when it could be easily coded to have NPC cyno beacons on stations? Oh its a time sink.
Why do I have to monitor market prices and can't program in a price range that auto updates with other bidders? Oh its a time sink.


PI extractors: because it takes skill to find the optimal layout or positions etc.

Cyno alt 5km: broken game

Monitor market prices: intellectually challenging game is intellectually challenging



But manualpiloting what should be the autopilot feature is braindead, repetitive, boring, useless.

Other than creating "ganking oppotunities" but it is of course just an emergent gameplay and not a design intention.


Moving PI extractors requires no skill
Monitoring market prices is not intellectually stimulating
Your logic for not having a cyno beacon on NPC stations is two random disconnected words.

All of these things are time sinks. Flying by auto pilot is a greater time sink than clinking the buttons to manual fly.


Everything is a time sink, so CCP should not fix the bugs and release new features? Y/N
Black Dranzer
#55 - 2011-11-08 01:43:19 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Even if the change is not profitable to pirates it is still a change that should happen.

Ehh, even though we both support the same thing, I still have to fundamentally disagree. If APWTZ would actually destroy an entire well-established segment of gameplay, I'd be skeptical to endorse its implementation. The thing is, it doesn't.

The key is not to tell people that they're wrong, it's to find out why people disagree, and figure out if their objections are valid or not. In this case, I don't think they are. If I were a suicide ganker, hell, I'll take "frequent AFK at destination" over "infrequent AFK at 15 and approaching the gate".

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Zions Child
Higashikata Industries
#56 - 2011-11-08 01:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zions Child
Hi-sec isn't safe. It shouldn't be safe. It should be more secure than low sec and null sec. Hisec is more secure than null sec and low sec. Autopilot WTZ would go a LONG way to making hi-sec safe. That is not what CCP wants. Also, quit whining, there was a time when there was no WTZ, and you had to set up bookmarks for all the major routes you'd take. Seriously, there is absolutely no problem with warping the way it is now, you're just a lazy idiot. Now GTFO the forums.


Oh, and this has nothing to do with suicide ganking, it has to do with actually paying attention to your damn screen on occasion in hi-sec. Its not like you have to pay constant attention with WTZ as it is, you just have to check back often enough to jump and warp to the next stargate.
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#57 - 2011-11-08 01:48:51 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:
Yes, traveling 20 or 30 jumps through highsec is boring.
*ding ding ding* highsec is boring.

Now that we've figured that out, we can maybe grow a pair and check out lowsec and nullsec. 5 jumps through 0.0 space in your hauler isnt as boring. This is where the real eve game is.

Have you ever played Guild Wars? Do you remember Pre-Sear? That is GW equivelent of HIghsec. The game doesnt start untill you are in low/nullsec. If you want to choose to remain in highsec for years and years (or forever) You will need to learn to love it the way it is, and stop crying to have YOUR gameplay style override everyone else's.

This game was designed ground up to be hostile, and unforgiving. If you cant handle that, you need to find a different game.


I'm sorry you feel that highsec is booring. If it's so booring for you, then I think you need to leave highsec. Also, there is no such thing as a real/not real game in eve. It's a sandbox game. There is no end game. The game is whatever you want it to be. The only thing apwt15 is doing right now is making me avoid travelling at all costs.

If I want to stay safe, I know damn well that wtz is not the answer. I've been to lowsec, and I've been to 0.0. Yes, it's fun, but it's time consuming. I don't have that much time to play anymore, and that throws those sort of group activities out the window.

Nope, I never played guild wars. And you say I should stop crying because I want to have my gamestyle override other gamestyles. Well, I'll play it differently. I just don't want other people's playstyles add a timesink to my gamestyle. And it's only there because of lazy gankers whining about it since wtz was introduced.

Removing apwt15 would not i nany way override anyones gamestyle. It would just provide more of a challange.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#58 - 2011-11-08 01:49:08 UTC
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Dear CCP,

With all the stuff that you are fixing, can you remove the autopilot-not-warping-to-zero "feature" as well?

It is obviously outdated and plain stupid.

Tired Finger


The reason you don't warp to 0 is to punish you for playing the game, while not playing the game. CCP knows people afk while traveling across high sec. Everyone at some point has needed to do other things, and move their empty frieghter back home, so Auto pilots it up. We all do it, the price you pay is having it take longer. Thats the reason. I know, you know everyone knows it would make more sense landing at zero, but then their would be no reason to every stay tabbed at your screen when moving items across space.

Thats the reason its there, if this makes it easier for the gank squads to hit that over common pilot that carriers 600m - 2B worth in an auto piloting Badger, I believe Darwin had an answer that fits.

-1, Autopilot while it should be their to use, should also punish you on time for using it.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#59 - 2011-11-08 01:51:28 UTC
Zions Child wrote:
Hi-sec isn't safe. It shouldn't be safe. It should be more secure than low sec and null sec. Hisec is more secure than null sec and low sec. Autopilot WTZ would go a LONG way to making hi-sec safe. That is not what CCP wants. Also, quit whining, there was a time when there was no WTZ, and you had to set up bookmarks for all the major routes you'd take. Seriously, there is absolutely no problem with warping the way it is now, you're just a lazy idiot. Now GTFO the forums.


Oh, and this has nothing to do with suicide ganking, it has to do with actually paying attention to your damn screen on occasion in hi-sec. Its not like you have to pay constant attention with WTZ as it is, you just have to check back often enough to jump and warp to the next stargate.


Yeah, see your arguement doesn't hold any water. wtz does not safe travel make. So I think you need to GTFO of this thread.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Jodis Talvanen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#60 - 2011-11-08 01:52:38 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Jodis Talvanen wrote:
Even if the change is not profitable to pirates it is still a change that should happen.

Ehh, even though we both support the same thing, I still have to fundamentally disagree. If APWTZ would actually destroy an entire well-established segment of gameplay, I'd be skeptical to endorse its implementation. The thing is, it doesn't.

The key is not to tell people that they're wrong, it's to find out why people disagree, and figure out if their objections are valid or not. In this case, I don't think they are. If I were a suicide ganker, hell, I'll take "frequent AFK at destination" over "infrequent AFK at 15 and approaching the gate".


Okay. Perhaps we are concerned with different things.

Suicide ganking is a well established gameplay as well but then CCP is taking away insurance payout if you are CONCORD'd. I think it is exactly the same thing in this case. It is not about what concequences it will bring but what is right or wrong at the root, before any emegent gameplay is emerged. If autopilot doesn't get updated to warp to zero, pirates will keep ganking people, if it gets updated, pirates will perhaps have to find something else to so. This, I don't care at all. Warp-to-15 is stupid from the first moment it is not updated with the other warp-to-zero stuffs. It is a change overdue. It is a flaw in the game and it simply needs to be fixed.

But then you suggested the change seems to be in favour of the pirates as well so I think all is fine.

Autopilot to zero gogogo CCP