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New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.

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PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-06-22 08:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
CCP Falcon wrote:
Quote:
New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.


No one ever promised that EVE was going to be fair. The odds are stacked against you, and you have to train to overcome them.

The Drones skill has functioned this way for the last decade. Training it to V like everyone else will enable people to field 5 drones.


Whoooooosh.

You raise an excellent point Falcon. Now, replace drones with something that rhymes with robes and re-evaluate.

Edit: This thread is a 10/10 btw, op nailed it.
Josef Djugashvilis
#122 - 2013-06-22 09:40:50 UTC
Skill Training Online wrote:
CCP should change the way the "Drones" skill works.

Set the base number of drones controllable to 5.

Have the skill just increase the damage by 20% per level.

It really feels bad to be a low SP player in a fleet with older players and only being able to launch two drones.


This is an emotional crisis for many new players.


Poor quality trolling.

Please stop.

This is not a signature.
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#123 - 2013-06-22 10:30:43 UTC
Totally supporting TS.

But I think new Drones skill should add not only drone damage but also HP, speed, optimal, control range and even tracking. Bonuses from all the support skills should be halved.

Just because it makes so much sense.


On a serious note: why sentry drones don't require racial drone specialization skill and don't get damage bonus from it? Why are they so special?
Angelhunter
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-06-22 10:34:45 UTC
OP clearly would have shot himself out of depression if he played back in the day when a fully drone trained player could launch 10 drones to his 1.

Stop crying, get training.
Royal Executioner Shazih
Doomheim
#125 - 2013-06-22 11:41:28 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Quote:
New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.


No one ever promised that EVE was going to be fair. The odds are stacked against you, and you have to train to overcome them.

The Drones skill has functioned this way for the last decade. Training it to V like everyone else will enable people to field 5 drones.



How did end up with 3k+ likes answering this way? I guess time to introduce downvoting.

It is actually YOUR responsibility to make game more convenient.
Josef Djugashvilis
#126 - 2013-06-22 12:01:22 UTC
Hell, just skip the whole training thing altogether.

Everyone starts with max skills in everything.

The notion that new players should have less skills than old players is just plain wrong.

This is not a signature.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#127 - 2013-06-22 12:10:47 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

i'd actually buy plex to do this... especially for all those prerequisites that aren't ideal to train on my current remap. (looking at you propulsion jamming!)


Why would you want to "jam" someone's propulsion? Are you an evildoer? Idea
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#128 - 2013-06-22 12:22:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Ma'Baker McCandless
Royal Executioner Shazih wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Quote:
New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.


No one ever promised that EVE was going to be fair. The odds are stacked against you, and you have to train to overcome them.

The Drones skill has functioned this way for the last decade. Training it to V like everyone else will enable people to field 5 drones.



How did end up with 3k+ likes answering this way? I guess time to introduce downvoting.

It is actually YOUR responsibility to make game more convenient.



Just fer causin' this reactshun, ah went an gave Falcon annuther +1
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-06-22 13:02:22 UTC
UddWilliam wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I don't think people remember quite how fun it can be to simply get some t1 fitted t1 frigates and just go on a roam.

You don't NEED skills to have fun. Skills only allow more options.

Whether you have 1mil sp, 10mil sp or 100mil sp, if you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right.


To tell you the truth is, I know it, and I did learn how to pvp using t1 frig in FW and won some fights.

But soon I know what upsets me:
PVP in EVE is like "Warping online", especially for solo player.

Fly a frig in lowsec and you spend 30 mins and you find nothing but teams you can't defeat by yourself or some other solo players that keep escaping. Then you finally get someone that's willing to have a fight, but you fail and explode, then you have to spend another 30 mins to warp to a trade hub or your corp home to fit another ship and repeat playing warping online again.

And many nullsec-ers are complaining that CTA is just a process like this : spend 1 hours to do 30 jumps, shoot, explode, spend another hour to jump back home or speed it up by exploding you pod :).

That's why I saw a thread complaining someone can use micro-warp + stealth to escape from gate camp easily, just because they keep waiting for hours and find few things to shoot. Big smile


Jenn aSide wrote:


Man, were are missing out , we should get some of them irresponsible/impatient instant gratification kids up in here so EVE can be beautiful like the rest of gaming.....

Sarcasm aside, a REAL EVE player is someone who likes a CHALLENGE. Like how Goons came in, saw the established order and said "to hell with that" and toppled them......only to become the Established order themselves lol. But thats another thread Twisted



Keep warping in EVE or suiside to shoot someone you can't defeat is not CHALLENGE, but it's too common in EVE. That's all I want to talk about.



Opps, I think i went too far from what this thread is talking about.

What makes me so interested in this thread is how CCP Falcon replied. With no disrespect, but I think:

It's better not to answer a thread with some logic like "somthing has functioned for a decade so it's good and no need to change". Please, hear voices from more players and answer like a game dev more.

Or you just show you don't know how it hurts players. Everything in EVE has functioned for a decade and you don't even need to have expansions because nothing need to be changed.Roll

Keep Drones V like what it is now has no obivious adavantages. A caracal without Missile Ops V can run well. But you won't even want to use a vexor without Drone V to do LV2 missions because you loose more dps than caracal just because a T1 skills. It's obiviously discouraging newbie to choose what he want to fly freely.

So tell me why not make a little change to make it more funny for a newbie, or CCP don't care newbie? @CCP Falcon


I agree on the finding of fights... that's where my point comes from. Some people are scared of the effort to reship or lose. Another problem, which you yourself mentioned... is that it takes 5 extra minutes more, per ship, to pre fit them =)

Make like, 10 frigs for a night of losing them. Winning isn't even that much fun compared to actually doing stuff. I'd rather lose 5 frigs in 2 hours (not just feeding them) then spend 2 hours in 1 frig looking for a fight. Also, I like setting a straight long desto and hitting it, then just roaming a specific area. You meet new people that way.

The part you mentioned about newbie pilots flying what they want, freely, is a misnomer.

Newbie pilots actually don't have that choice innately and by design. They do have ship restrictions because of being a trial account. A trial account is not just an account you get full access to. It's a test drive. A taste.

Once you feel you like the game design, then you sub up and have free reign to choose a skill/ship. You aren't supposed to just play how you want and fly what you want as a trial account. It's supposed to be limited.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
UddWilliam
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-06-22 16:13:37 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:


The part you mentioned about newbie pilots flying what they want, freely, is a misnomer.

Newbie pilots actually don't have that choice innately and by design. They do have ship restrictions because of being a trial account. A trial account is not just an account you get full access to. It's a test drive. A taste.

Once you feel you like the game design, then you sub up and have free reign to choose a skill/ship. You aren't supposed to just play how you want and fly what you want as a trial account. It's supposed to be limited.


Maybe I don't make myself understood. See my example mentioned before. Vexor and Caracal are both available for trial accounts and they stand for two major ship types (drone boat and missile boat).

EVE is encouraging ship diversification. It means players can fight with the way he like. That's why we see ship rebalancing. That's why drake is nurfed, and we see new drone ship line like dragoon and new amageddon.

The key problem is that you can fit all your high slots with missile launchers with just 1 day skill training while drone boat need 1 week training to get the same effect. So players who choose drone boat (Vexor) as their initial LV2 mission boat is a bad choice because his effeicency in the first week is much worse than players who are using Caracal. Tristan has even worse situation. It's not because the ship is bad, but because the skill is designed in an imbalanced way.

This is surly an imbalance for a newbie's early life. While most MMO is trying to solve class imbalance, Falcon doesn't think it as a problem.
Maybe that means a newbie has responsibility to suffer the punish for his "silliness".
stoicfaux
#131 - 2013-06-22 16:33:35 UTC
UddWilliam wrote:

Maybe I don't make myself understood. See my example mentioned before. Vexor and Caracal are both available for trial accounts and they stand for two major ship types (drone boat and missile boat).

EVE is encouraging ship diversification. It means players can fight with the way he like. That's why we see ship rebalancing. That's why drake is nurfed, and we see new drone ship line like dragoon and new amageddon.

The key problem is that you can fit all your high slots with missile launchers with just 1 day skill training while drone boat need 1 week training to get the same effect. So players who choose drone boat (Vexor) as their initial LV2 mission boat is a bad choice because his effeicency in the first week is much worse than players who are using Caracal. Tristan has even worse situation. It's not because the ship is bad, but because the skill is designed in an imbalanced way.

OTOH, drones don't require much in the way of secondary skills, whereas guns/missiles do:
missiles: Target Navigation Prediction, Missile Projection, Rapid Launch, Warhead Upgrades, Guided Missile Precision (plus TP skills)

guns: Controlled Bursts, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis (plus cap skills for non-projectile)

drones: Drone Durabilty, Drone Navigation, Drone Sharpshooting.



Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#132 - 2013-06-22 16:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Gustav
stoicfaux wrote:
UddWilliam wrote:

Maybe I don't make myself understood. See my example mentioned before. Vexor and Caracal are both available for trial accounts and they stand for two major ship types (drone boat and missile boat).

EVE is encouraging ship diversification. It means players can fight with the way he like. That's why we see ship rebalancing. That's why drake is nurfed, and we see new drone ship line like dragoon and new amageddon.

The key problem is that you can fit all your high slots with missile launchers with just 1 day skill training while drone boat need 1 week training to get the same effect. So players who choose drone boat (Vexor) as their initial LV2 mission boat is a bad choice because his effeicency in the first week is much worse than players who are using Caracal. Tristan has even worse situation. It's not because the ship is bad, but because the skill is designed in an imbalanced way.

OTOH, drones don't require much in the way of secondary skills, whereas guns/missiles do:
missiles: Target Navigation Prediction, Missile Projection, Rapid Launch, Warhead Upgrades, Guided Missile Precision (plus TP skills)

guns: Controlled Bursts, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis (plus cap skills for non-projectile)

drones: Drone Durabilty, Drone Navigation, Drone Sharpshooting.




Combat Drone Operation. Drone Interfacing. Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing, Advanced Drone Interfacing.

Not sure I see your point.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom
stoicfaux
#133 - 2013-06-22 17:01:22 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
UddWilliam wrote:

Maybe I don't make myself understood. See my example mentioned before. Vexor and Caracal are both available for trial accounts and they stand for two major ship types (drone boat and missile boat).

EVE is encouraging ship diversification. It means players can fight with the way he like. That's why we see ship rebalancing. That's why drake is nurfed, and we see new drone ship line like dragoon and new amageddon.

The key problem is that you can fit all your high slots with missile launchers with just 1 day skill training while drone boat need 1 week training to get the same effect. So players who choose drone boat (Vexor) as their initial LV2 mission boat is a bad choice because his effeicency in the first week is much worse than players who are using Caracal. Tristan has even worse situation. It's not because the ship is bad, but because the skill is designed in an imbalanced way.

OTOH, drones don't require much in the way of secondary skills, whereas guns/missiles do:
missiles: Target Navigation Prediction, Missile Projection, Rapid Launch, Warhead Upgrades, Guided Missile Precision (plus TP skills)

guns: Controlled Bursts, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis (plus cap skills for non-projectile)

drones: Drone Durabilty, Drone Navigation, Drone Sharpshooting.




Combat Drone Operation. Drone Interfacing. Advanced Drone Interfacing.

Not sure I see your point.

Firstly, this is in the context of newbies getting the "most" out of their ships.

Combat Drone Operation == Gunnery == Missile Launcher Operation, which is why I left it out. Drone Interfacing I missed. Advanced Drone Interfacing is in the realm of T2 weapons, i.e. not applicable in the context of the "newbie" experience.

My point is that missile and gun ships need a lot of secondary skills to be effective. Drones on a drone bonused hull, on the other hand, work out of box with minimal skill training.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-06-22 22:54:11 UTC
UddWilliam wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


The part you mentioned about newbie pilots flying what they want, freely, is a misnomer.

Newbie pilots actually don't have that choice innately and by design. They do have ship restrictions because of being a trial account. A trial account is not just an account you get full access to. It's a test drive. A taste.

Once you feel you like the game design, then you sub up and have free reign to choose a skill/ship. You aren't supposed to just play how you want and fly what you want as a trial account. It's supposed to be limited.


Maybe I don't make myself understood. See my example mentioned before. Vexor and Caracal are both available for trial accounts and they stand for two major ship types (drone boat and missile boat).

EVE is encouraging ship diversification. It means players can fight with the way he like. That's why we see ship rebalancing. That's why drake is nurfed, and we see new drone ship line like dragoon and new amageddon.

The key problem is that you can fit all your high slots with missile launchers with just 1 day skill training while drone boat need 1 week training to get the same effect. So players who choose drone boat (Vexor) as their initial LV2 mission boat is a bad choice because his effeicency in the first week is much worse than players who are using Caracal. Tristan has even worse situation. It's not because the ship is bad, but because the skill is designed in an imbalanced way.

This is surly an imbalance for a newbie's early life. While most MMO is trying to solve class imbalance, Falcon doesn't think it as a problem.
Maybe that means a newbie has responsibility to suffer the punish for his "silliness".



I'll bite again. There are no classes in EVE, only decisions.

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-06-22 23:31:03 UTC
Exploration changes - the number of probes you can use was just part of the hassle, even with the changes you ship, skills, and equipment still count. And this is just to get to the site.

Drone troll suggestion - just that, a troll suggestion. There are 3 basic weapon types and they all need to have some balance between them. Exploration exists on its own.


Since you are only 2 days old with this char and trolling, I take it you don't have the balls to post with your main.

I can has blogging skills!
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-06-23 00:55:54 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Exploration changes - the number of probes you can use was just part of the hassle, even with the changes you ship, skills, and equipment still count. And this is just to get to the site.

Drone troll suggestion - just that, a troll suggestion. There are 3 basic weapon types and they all need to have some balance between them. Exploration exists on its own.


Since you are only 2 days old with this char and trolling, I take it you don't have the balls to post with your main.


Who are you referring to with that, and how would I tell that someone is not using their main?

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Skill Training Online
Doomheim
#137 - 2013-06-23 00:58:23 UTC
Jeffrey Asher wrote:
Linna Excel wrote:
Exploration changes - the number of probes you can use was just part of the hassle, even with the changes you ship, skills, and equipment still count. And this is just to get to the site.

Drone troll suggestion - just that, a troll suggestion. There are 3 basic weapon types and they all need to have some balance between them. Exploration exists on its own.


Since you are only 2 days old with this char and trolling, I take it you don't have the balls to post with your main.


Who are you referring to with that, and how would I tell that someone is not using their main?


It is irony, he is a forum alt... who is upset about someone posting on a forum alt.

Thank You Obama!
Higgs Maken
The Metal Box Company
#138 - 2013-06-23 03:43:11 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
UddWilliam wrote:

Maybe I don't make myself understood. See my example mentioned before. Vexor and Caracal are both available for trial accounts and they stand for two major ship types (drone boat and missile boat).

EVE is encouraging ship diversification. It means players can fight with the way he like. That's why we see ship rebalancing. That's why drake is nurfed, and we see new drone ship line like dragoon and new amageddon.

The key problem is that you can fit all your high slots with missile launchers with just 1 day skill training while drone boat need 1 week training to get the same effect. So players who choose drone boat (Vexor) as their initial LV2 mission boat is a bad choice because his effeicency in the first week is much worse than players who are using Caracal. Tristan has even worse situation. It's not because the ship is bad, but because the skill is designed in an imbalanced way.

OTOH, drones don't require much in the way of secondary skills, whereas guns/missiles do:
missiles: Target Navigation Prediction, Missile Projection, Rapid Launch, Warhead Upgrades, Guided Missile Precision (plus TP skills)

guns: Controlled Bursts, Motion Prediction, Rapid Firing, Sharpshooter, Surgical Strike, Trajectory Analysis (plus cap skills for non-projectile)

drones: Drone Durabilty, Drone Navigation, Drone Sharpshooting.




Combat Drone Operation. Drone Interfacing. Advanced Drone Interfacing.

Not sure I see your point.

Firstly, this is in the context of newbies getting the "most" out of their ships.

Combat Drone Operation == Gunnery == Missile Launcher Operation, which is why I left it out. Drone Interfacing I missed. Advanced Drone Interfacing is in the realm of T2 weapons, i.e. not applicable in the context of the "newbie" experience.

My point is that missile and gun ships need a lot of secondary skills to be effective. Drones on a drone bonused hull, on the other hand, work out of box with minimal skill training.


Firstly for missile it's lock target, F1 and forget. For drone it's lock target, launch drone, attack target and monitor drone health. Which system seems working out of the box for you?

I have use evemon and added Light missile specialization V and all support skills to V, that's 150 odd days of training, are you claiming you can't use missile without that 150 days of skills? You DO NOT need all support skills at V to be effective, it's good to have all at V but not a necessity! When using light missile do I need Guided Missile Precision and TP? Honestly, your point is you're trying too hard to make your point.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2013-06-23 05:40:10 UTC
So you want Drones to add 20% damage... but Drone Interfacing already does that...

This guy really just wants a stealth buff to GALLENTE

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-06-23 05:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Regan Rotineque wrote:
ummmmm

show me on the dolly where the bad drone pilot touched you......


wait till you fly with a carrier and its wing of frigate sized bad boys.....then we can talk about feeling inadequate....




Last I checked, the largest fighter bomber is the Tyrfing at 28m. This is not frigate sized, with the smallest frigate being the [CORRECTION] Tormentor at 51m.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104