Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Out of curiosity, would it be so bad to give Industrials the grid and armor/shields/structure of t1 cruisers, along with more turret and launcher slots? They still wouldn't have any combat bonuses but they could be fit to fight if their owner chose to do so. I'm thinking it might be kind of fun to have a ship like the Galaxy from the original Privateer.

I have that thought in a Thread I made a while back.

Thoughts on a Proposal for the Tiericide of the Industrial Ship Class.

Basically the idea was to give a role to each Industrial and make the Cargo Expanders less important in their fits. One of which is an Armed Merchant shipfor self defense that doubled as the tank ship too. It has the lowest Cargo and about the attack / defense of a T1 Cruiser with the speed and sig rad of Battlecruisers. So not a ship you would want as your first choice compared to fast cruisers or Heavily Armed Battlecruisers but good for defense of Cargo.

I also wanted their hull price increased to the cost of ships around that size. I still think they should be priced around T1 Cruiser cost.

Well, if I can counter the bolded statement, it almost sounds as if you're suggesting that because you're putting *some* effort into it, we should just be satisfied with the bone we've been thrown. I couldn't disagree more. You've admitted that the industrial lines have never "popped," and that their purpose is to haul stuff cheaply. Nobody is suggesting otherwise. We (meaning the many posters who've passionately made the various suggestions) are merely advocating that there is room for innovation here, and if you're going to go through the trouble of rebalancing this line--not as some sort of afterthought or half-hearted effort--then you ought to give it the same attention you'd give any other line.

You could have argued that Mining Barges were boring and only served to suck up asteroids at the fastest rate. You could have buffed Barges' respective rock-sucking amounts and left it at that. But you didn't. You innovated on a line that could have used some help, and the results have been fantastic.

It's the same treatment we're asking for here, because, look, we all get that Industrials won't be even on the list after these changes are made. So give them a proper balance now, and have them pop. Give them the Mining Barge treatment where one can actually tank something (~50k ehp) to stop mindless ganks, make one really fast for afk, low-value hauls and make one enormously capable of carrying goods for the high sec bold or for those that live safely deep in the back reaches of space.

The "flavor" of the lines--at least as I understand it, since there isn't "traditional" flavor by optimal range or tracking, etc.--is how slick it can do its job. Is it engaging to have a ship that has a huge cargo bay? Is it satisfying to fly that boat when I need to pick up my daily haul? Does it feel good knowing that when I undock my Hoarder it'll actually survive the random ganking dessie? It can.

If you don't take the opportunity to innovate now, then it'll still be just a matter of who holds the most and train that--look how this has worked out historically: The Itty V carried the most, and it was trained into the most for haulers. The Covetor/Hulk sucked rocks the most, thus it was skilled into the most for this. In fact, in every instance where a ship did "the most," it was trained into and flown extensively until tiericide came along (Hurricane?). With the proposed changes, admittedly you're looking for viable choices, so as not to have them all marginalized, but it almost sounds like you don't want competitive choices. As players we like competitive choices and decision making. Adding flavor to the industrial line gives that--true choice with pros and cons to each.

I'm sorry, but I'm not content with holding off on the future promises when the issues facing Industrial rebalance can be addressed today. Besides, it's not worth being complacent today, since this is THE chance we'll get to innovate. Obviously, we haven't seen behind the candelabra and know what future industrial changes are coming. All we can speak to is what we know the Industrial line can--and should become now and not some future balancing period.

Lastly, just to address the point that T1 Industrials are effectively replacing DSTs' role as a "large" high sec hauler, I'd like to say that DSTs are horrendously broken at the current time. They perform poorly as tanky haulers, considering that their cargo bay is smaller than a blockade runner when properly--read: as intended--tanked, and they're far too slow to align when fully fitted for cargo for high sec duty. The Orca--the world's premier mining support ship--does their job better in spades, having an enormous hold AND a ridiculous tank. Certainly, the changes to T1 Industrials' cargo room is warranted (with other changes, to be sure) and their impact on a broken T2 line should never be considered. If that were the case, T1 cruisers would never have ended up so well if Fozzie and his team were worried they'd marginalize proper T2 ships (Deimos says hello).

Would someone please tell me the need for the badger 2 to have more CPU than a titan? Even though I find it immensely hilarious, I still fail to see the practical application of this.

Orcas have a much higher skill point investment though than T1 haulers, and are much much much more expensive.

you mean the very issue that will exist between the bestower and badger mk2 since the bestower will have 11.47% more cargo space than the bestower?
and if you skip amarr industrial V the bestower still has 7% more cargo than the badger and take significantly less training time.