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Why does CCP discourage experimentation in EvE Online?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2013-06-22 16:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Adam Gamel wrote:
I want to PVP but in order to even have a chance I need to have T2 Weapons

Fun fact; I didn't have any Tech 2 weapons for the first year I was in Faction Warfare. I still managed to be deal decent damage and be an asset to my group.

Adam Gamel wrote:
I need the CPU and power gird to equip them in a way where I could actually do something

No you don't. Just tinker with the fit and find what fits for you at the moment. Adjust it accordingly as your skills improve.

However, I do hear that Atrons, Condors, Kestrels, Slashers and Thrashers have very generous CPU and PG and can take on ships many times their size with barely any skills. Cheap too.

Quote:
Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.

Lol no. Faction ammo is used FAR more often (and is usually better) than T2 ammo. And you don't need any fancy skills to use it.

How did you Veterans start?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2013-06-22 16:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Adam Gamel wrote:
Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.
…and neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with.

Quote:
In an interceptor
…but an interceptor is not a “let's experiment with this playstyle” kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to “have a chance”.

Your problem is not long training times — it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-06-22 16:55:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Adam Gamel wrote:
The point I was trying to make in a nutshell is...

Reduce skill training for Core skills and frigates.
…and the point everyone else is making is: it's already as low as it can (and even should) be.

Experimentation is already just a matter of training a couple of low-rank skills, which takes minutes or (at most) hours. The only thing that can't be experimented with this way is flying a capship, and that's probably a good thing since those are something you shouldn't really experiment with — it'll only end in tears.



The point I'm trying to tell you as being a new character they aren't short even though they are shorter than some of the other skills.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#24 - 2013-06-22 16:56:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Adam Gamel wrote:
Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.
…and neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with.

Quote:
In an interceptor
…but an interceptor is not a “let's experiment with this playstyle” kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to “have a chance”.

Your problem is not long training times — it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours.


So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#25 - 2013-06-22 16:58:43 UTC
The youngest player in my corp had a T1 fit rifter when he first joined us. We were all in T3 and some of us could fly a carrier. He had less SP than i had in gunnery Pirate Of course, now he can fly a T3. The time needed for skills isn't a problem to me. When i was in 0.0 with the goonies, some members (new to eve) couldn't afford a rifter and the FC (good guy DBRB) was giving them one.

You do not need 25m SP in gunnery or spaceship command to pvp. Only a good corp/alliance and friends you can trust...and that's the hard part in this game.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#26 - 2013-06-22 17:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Adam Gamel wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Adam Gamel wrote:
Yes you do, T2 ammo is meant for PVP and it is superior to T1 ammunition.
…and neither is in any way needed or required to have a chance, much less to experiment with.

Quote:
In an interceptor
…but an interceptor is not a “let's experiment with this playstyle” kind of ship, so you're already barking up the wrong tree. It's definitely not something that is needed or required in order to PvP or to “have a chance”.

Your problem is not long training times — it's that you're trying to run a marathon before you can crawl on all fours.


So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.

The exact fit? No. But RARELY do you ever encounter a ship with the exact same fit as yours.

And did you know that Meta 4 guns have the exact same stats as Tech 2 weapons? The only thing Tech 2 weapons have is the ability to fire Tech 2 ammo (which is situational) and a specialization skill that only adds an extra 8 to 10% damage.

And did you know that a Tech 1 Atron with Tech 1 mods can potentially kill a tech 2 fitted Imperial Navy Slicer? Or a Tech 2 fitted Crusader? Breachers and Incursus' can tank destroyers and all but the most ganky Tech 2 frigates.

How did you Veterans start?
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-06-22 17:04:38 UTC
bloodknight2 wrote:
The youngest player in my corp had a T1 fit rifter when he first joined us. We were all in T3 and some of us could fly a carrier. He had less SP than i had in gunnery Pirate Of course, now he can fly a T3. The time needed for skills isn't a problem to me. When i was in 0.0 with the goonies, some members (new to eve) couldn't afford a rifter and the FC (good guy DBRB) was giving them one.

You do not need 25m SP in gunnery or spaceship command to pvp. Only a good corp/alliance and friends you can trust...and that's the hard part in this game.



Yeah but you are lucky enough to be in a group like that, I will never get that chance.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-06-22 17:04:53 UTC
I started reading and I gave up.

Problem, even if the new player had the skills they wouldn't have the ISK to support the ship.

IF a new player really wants the skills,ship and the ISK all they need is RL cash.

Sell plex's and buy a character.
Problem solved.

Still say you should be forced to change the name of a character when you purchase it.


EVERYBODY KNOWS
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2013-06-22 17:05:36 UTC
Adam Gamel wrote:
The point I'm trying to tell you as being a new character they aren't short even though they are shorter than some of the other skills.
They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the “all to V” trap — one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV.

Adam Gamel wrote:
So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?
There is no such thing as a T1 interceptor, for starters. For another, that's the mistake you make: you try to go up against a poorly matched opponent. One of the skills you need to learn is how to spot a fight: what can you win against? What will cause problems? What is “impossible”? How do you work around these problems with what you've got?

So no. You don't need those things. You need the player skill to pick the right target at the right time. Waiting around for your SP to grow will only ever make you worse at that (and, again, make you lose your ISK when you incorrecly decide that you're ready just because you've passed some arbitrary SP checkpoint).

Oh, and if you actually want to kill stuff rather than just capture them, interceptors is probably the wrong thing to aim for…
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2013-06-22 17:09:58 UTC
Adam Gamel wrote:


So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.


Condors have been killing much more expensive stuff for a good while now.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#31 - 2013-06-22 17:11:15 UTC
How am I trying to run before I crawl?

I'm in a T1 Interceptor...

It's one of the first ships you are allowed to use in the game.

It has no tank... It's advantage is speed and maneuverability.

In order to avoid being webbed which reduces my speed, something I don't want, I have to fight out at range.

I have to stay fast so I have to use guns that can track well.

T1 AMMO doesn't allow you to fight with weapons like that at the range of 16km unless its crap ammo that does no damage and will never break someones tank if they have one.

My fit is going to be as follows.


T2 Focused Pulse Lasers x3

Warp Disruption
Tracking Disruption
Microwarp Drive

Damage Control 2
Velocity Mods x 2
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-06-22 17:12:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Adam Gamel wrote:


So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?

No

So yes you do need those things.


Condors have been killing much more expensive stuff for a good while now.



Condors use Missiles and they work different from Gun's.

They are able to take things one from a great distance.

I see what your getting at but I don't want to fly those ships I want to fly what I am flying and still want to be just as effective.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#33 - 2013-06-22 17:13:25 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
I started reading and I gave up.

Problem, even if the new player had the skills they wouldn't have the ISK to support the ship.

IF a new player really wants the skills,ship and the ISK all they need is RL cash.

Sell plex's and buy a character.
Problem solved.

Still say you should be forced to change the name of a character when you purchase it.





Frigates are dirt cheap, how could new player not have the money?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2013-06-22 17:14:57 UTC
Adam Gamel wrote:



Condors use Missiles and they work different from Gun's.

They are able to take things one from a great distance.

I see what your getting at but I don't want to fly those ships I want to fly what I am flying and still want to be just as effective.


Rockets do not take things out from a great distance.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-06-22 17:15:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Adam Gamel wrote:
The point I'm trying to tell you as being a new character they aren't short even though they are shorter than some of the other skills.
They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the “all to V” trap — one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV.

Adam Gamel wrote:
So a player in a T1 interceptor with t1 gun systems is going to beat out a player using the same fit with T2 gun systems?
There is no such thing as a T1 interceptor, for starters. For another, that's the mistake you make: you try to go up against a poorly matched opponent. One of the skills you need to learn is how to spot a fight: what can you win against? What will cause problems? What is “impossible”? How do you work around these problems with what you've got?

So no. You don't need those things. You need the player skill to pick the right target at the right time. Waiting around for your SP to grow will only ever make you worse at that (and, again, make you lose your ISK when you incorrecly decide that you're ready just because you've passed some arbitrary SP checkpoint).

Oh, and if you actually want to kill stuff rather than just capture them, interceptors is probably the wrong thing to aim for…



I understand there is no T1 INTERCEPTOR per say, but there are similar ships that look just like the T2 interceptors and it works in just he same fashion just not as well.

Hence why I called it a T1 Interceptor.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#36 - 2013-06-22 17:16:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Adam Gamel wrote:



Condors use Missiles and they work different from Gun's.

They are able to take things one from a great distance.

I see what your getting at but I don't want to fly those ships I want to fly what I am flying and still want to be just as effective.


Rockets do not take things out from a great distance.



Light Missile Do.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#37 - 2013-06-22 17:27:50 UTC
just get good at a few things that let you do stuff and grind down teh cores later. it is frustrating but once it's done it's done.

it's the pre-req ones that annoy me far more, like sentry drone interfacing to V for T2 sentries. everything else can go to IV and unless it's substantially more than 5% extra whatever, then V is to grind when i'm too busy to play.

it would be nice to have perfect fitting skills but you can always drop some plate size or whatever. or fit rigs/implants.

forums.  serious business.
Adam Gamel
Doomheim
#38 - 2013-06-22 17:28:30 UTC
They're short. The problem is that you're trying to push for far higher levels than you need as a new player. You've fallen in the “all to V” trap — one that leads you nowhere, and very fast. As a new player, you should be looking at getting the most bang for your buck, which generally entails training to III or (occasionally) IV.

They aren't short short is one hour not weeks.

I have not fallen in anything.

If you want to fly at max speed you need navigation 5

If you want to dodge and have as much agility as possible

You need

Spaceship Command 5
Evasive Maneuvering 5

If you want to take full advantage of your frigates bonuses and ever move to a T2 frigate you need

Frigate Skill Level 5

if you want to use your guns to the highest damage potential

You need

Gun Skill 5
Gun Skill Specialization 5

If you want to fire your guns as fast as possible

You need

Gunnery 5
Rapid Firing 5

If you want to get the most out of your Afterburner or Microwarp Drive

You need Acceleration control 5

If you want to handle over heating as best as possible

Thermodynamics 5


So I don't understand how you can say you don't need 5, I mean I get you might not need it to kill somebody but your against players that have been playing for 10 years some of them already have these skills 5 and if you want to compete against them you have to do the same.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2013-06-22 17:29:30 UTC
Adam Gamel wrote:



Light Missile Do.


So use damps.
Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-06-22 17:34:34 UTC
also, don't pick fair fights.

i try to be invisible as much as possible and fight things with no guns. as an intro to 'pvp' it's fair more relaxing than typing 'gf' into local a hundred times with a wobbly lip.

forums.  serious business.