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Religion and Eve - A petition

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Doc Severide
Doomheim
#161 - 2013-06-22 15:52:44 UTC
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:

????

A" freedom"? WTF is that? By that definition everything is "a freedom"

Exactly....Everything...


So, a meaningless word then

Cool

Meaningless?

Freedom has a huge meaning to a lot of people. To some it means "everything" to others it means "getting out of prison" or "out of a bad marriage"...

Never meaningless... except to you I guess...

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#162 - 2013-06-22 15:53:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Doc Severide wrote:

Sorry but you didn't read my posts. I said specifically it is NOT a right. But it is a freedom. Big difference...People are free to murder if they choose to, they just have to understand the price...


Afraid not you need to look up freedom.
Freedom to do something means there will be no repercussions from the government for your actions.
If there are repercussions like going to jail or receiving a fine your actions are not free.

Example - you can talk about hating your government all you want. (Freedom of speech)

Now if you start talking about killing your leader you are no longer talking but now implying a possible action and that can have repercussions.

Too many people/companies (especially news agencies) believe freedom gives them the right to be irresponsible it doesn't.
Your are responsible for your actions, and can be punished if you cross the line.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#163 - 2013-06-22 15:54:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
We do. The fact that no one is stopping us means we still have that freedom for now...
…except that they are stopping us. So yeah, no.


There are plenty of people who are trying to stop the people who are trying to stop the can signs... So yeah, no.

Friggin bunch whiners must be AFK cloak whiners too
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#164 - 2013-06-22 15:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Doc Severide wrote:
People are STILL doing it....so how are they stopped?
…by the removal of the offending posts or remarks. Happens all the time.

You're confusing “freedom” as a synonym for “ability”, when we're talking about it in the sense of “liberty”. No, freedom of speech does not exist in EvE, or indeed on any privately owned and managed forum.

ed: Simetraz described your error even better in more practical terms.

Kult Altol wrote:
I assume you drive a car or have driven a car.
No, but that's a good example. When you drive, do you actively go about driving against red or drive on the pavement or drive at 20kph on the motorway because you know it'll upset people? Or are you a considerate person that realises that it's in everyone's best interest to not do those things because the rules are there for a very very good reason?

And again, do you have any suggestion for how to stop these griefers and trolls short of banning them?
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#165 - 2013-06-22 15:57:11 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:

????

A" freedom"? WTF is that? By that definition everything is "a freedom"

Exactly....Everything...


So, a meaningless word then

Cool

Meaningless?

Freedom has a huge meaning to a lot of people. To some it means "everything" to others it means "getting out of prison" or "out of a bad marriage"...

Never meaningless... except to you I guess...


To you it seems to mean everything.

If it means absolurtely everything, then it has no inherent menaing within itself.
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#166 - 2013-06-22 16:03:18 UTC
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Ma'Baker McCandless wrote:

????

A" freedom"? WTF is that? By that definition everything is "a freedom"

Exactly....Everything...


So, a meaningless word then

Cool

Meaningless?

Freedom has a huge meaning to a lot of people. To some it means "everything" to others it means "getting out of prison" or "out of a bad marriage"...

Never meaningless... except to you I guess...


To you it seems to mean everything.

If it means absolurtely everything, then it has no inherent menaing within itself.

Un huh...right...babble...

Everyone is always repeating the mantra "Don't Trust Anyone" ad nauseum... If I can't trust the guys I play with, why bother playing with them at all? Fly Solo...
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#167 - 2013-06-22 16:05:30 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:

Un huh...right...babble...


Yes that is exactly what you are doing.

I notice you are continuing to argue with me and not with those who have actually formed a proper counter to your total nonsense

Pretty much shows how strong your argument is that you arent engaging with true resistance to it
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#168 - 2013-06-22 16:06:16 UTC
Here, let me post it again for you

Simetraz wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:

Sorry but you didn't read my posts. I said specifically it is NOT a right. But it is a freedom. Big difference...People are free to murder if they choose to, they just have to understand the price...


Afraid not you need to look up freedom.
Freedom to do something means there will be no repercussions from the government for your actions.
If there are repercussions like going to jail or receiving a fine your actions are not free.

Example - you can talk about hating your government all you want. (Freedom of speech)

Now if you start talking about killing your leader you are no longer talking but now implying a possible action and that can have repercussions.

Too many people believe freedom gives them the right to be irresponsible it doesn't.
Your are responsible for your actions, and can be punished if you cross the line.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-06-22 16:08:09 UTC
Athiest tears best tears?

I just am having a hard time getting over the fact that this is EVE where any kind of griefing and scamming and being as cruel as possible to other players is encouraged and all sorts of lewd language and imagery that is offensive to religious people (not to mention extremely uncomfortable for the female demographic that EVE has such a hard time attracting) is allowed to be plastered everywhere, but "Jesus loves you" on a can elicits 9 pages of "we can't handle this" on the forums.

What happened to the whole toughen up mantra?

If you see religious messages in a bio or on a can, no one is forcing you to start an argument about it. Just acknowledge the person has different beliefs than you and move on, like I do when I see offensive material in the game. Don't force other people to hide their beliefs while you flout yours.

If anything, evangelizing is a perfect fit in a game like EVE where everything goes.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#170 - 2013-06-22 16:20:17 UTC
Moth Eisig wrote:
Athiest tears best tears?

I just am having a hard time getting over the fact that this is EVE where any kind of griefing and scamming and being as cruel as possible to other players is encouraged and all sorts of lewd language and imagery that is offensive to religious people (not to mention extremely uncomfortable for the female demographic that EVE has such a hard time attracting) is allowed to be plastered everywhere, but "Jesus loves you" on a can elicits 9 pages of "we can't handle this" on the forums.

What happened to the whole toughen up mantra?

If you see religious messages in a bio or on a can, no one is forcing you to start an argument about it. Just acknowledge the person has different beliefs than you and move on, like I do when I see offensive material in the game. Don't force other people to hide their beliefs while you flout yours.

If anything, evangelizing is a perfect fit in a game like EVE where everything goes.


Probably because that athiest will be the first person to come over and help you out if a tree fell on your house or need help moving in , or fixing that fence or whatever in RL.
But in game they will also be the first person to scam , pod, or gank that very same neighbor.
This is simply about separation of RL and a GAME.
I feel really sorry for people that don't see the difference, one day they will end up in jail and not understand why they are there.


EVERYBODY KNOWS
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#171 - 2013-06-22 16:26:08 UTC
As long as it would be ok if someone places a "Church of Satan" can next to the "Jesus" can it's all good and everyone can continue to display their funny beliefs ingame.

Deal?
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-06-22 16:26:26 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
Moth Eisig wrote:
Athiest tears best tears?

I just am having a hard time getting over the fact that this is EVE where any kind of griefing and scamming and being as cruel as possible to other players is encouraged and all sorts of lewd language and imagery that is offensive to religious people (not to mention extremely uncomfortable for the female demographic that EVE has such a hard time attracting) is allowed to be plastered everywhere, but "Jesus loves you" on a can elicits 9 pages of "we can't handle this" on the forums.

What happened to the whole toughen up mantra?

If you see religious messages in a bio or on a can, no one is forcing you to start an argument about it. Just acknowledge the person has different beliefs than you and move on, like I do when I see offensive material in the game. Don't force other people to hide their beliefs while you flout yours.

If anything, evangelizing is a perfect fit in a game like EVE where everything goes.


Probably because that athiest will be the first person to come over and help you out if a tree fell on your house or need help moving in , or fixing that fence or whatever in RL.
But in game they will also be the first person to scam , pod, or gank that very same neighbor.
This is simply about separation of RL and a GAME.
I feel really sorry for people that don't see the difference, one day they will end up in jail and not understand why they are there.




There's no such thing as total separation between the game and life. Do you want all mention of sports teams removed? Game of Thrones spoilers? Fleets spamming up local can only post eve-themed porn? Real world nationalities and flags?

What's going on is some people are trying to force their real life values on others in the game, and it's not the Christians anchoring cans.
Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2013-06-22 16:27:18 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
As long as it would be ok if someone places a "Church of Satan" can next to the "Jesus" can it's all good and everyone can continue to display their funny beliefs ingame.

Deal?


Deal. I mean we do already have a group that poses as Aryan Supremacists anyhow, right?
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#174 - 2013-06-22 16:28:25 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
As long as it would be ok if someone places a "Church of Satan" can next to the "Jesus" can it's all good and everyone can continue to display their funny beliefs ingame.

Deal?


While I would find "Church of Satan" offensive, I would not petition to have it removed. I don't read the cans anyway.

Seems one side of the argument wants to dictate to others but don't want to be dictate to themselves if they don't like the message. They can dish it but can't take it!!
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2013-06-22 16:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Tippia wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
You can even place your own propaganda cans (within the rules) if you like.
But that's just it: you can't. Because it's against the rules, just like the original cans. Blink


I didn't glean that from what ISD wrote:

ISD Flidais Asagiri wrote:

In essence it boils down to this: If the messages on the cans do not break the rules (see above T.o.S. rule 2 for example), you have agreed to be confronted with them by accepting the EULA and you will have to live with it.
Tip: ignore containers on the overview and/or don't read the messages in the container names.


Similarly, it would seem you could write something like "Atheism is cool" or "My god is a Titan and his wrath is coming." Never-mind that I kinda fail at counter-religious propaganda, but if we're talking rules -- though most people aren't here -it seems this would be allowed. Would it not be?

Someone from PL said it best. That you can have a church, liquor store and brothel all on the same street. (and I'm sure some people attend all three in the same day) but the point is reasonable tolerance and don't we all preach (pun intended) adaption -- to others who don't like what is said or done.

You're talking rules -- which you are right IF they are broken and maybe they were both broken and the ISD's comment was just meant as common sense -- like minimizing local in Amarr if so offended.

Albeit, I'm guessing few people making a fuss over this make a fuss about all the other rules broken in game in both local and via ship names. So even if you're (technically) right, this (not you) is a bit hypocritical.

P.S. You're right about in-game freedom though. The rest, I dunno. You're a sinner so I forgive you. Blink
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#176 - 2013-06-22 16:30:16 UTC
And for the real life people.. I come to EVE to get away from all the "Christian crap" in real life types: I come to EVE to get away from all the "no religion anywhere/anytime" types in real life!!!
Mytai Gengod
Sebees
#177 - 2013-06-22 16:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mytai Gengod
Tippia wrote:
Kult Altol wrote:
If the cans bug you that much do a petition.
Why is it so hard to just follow the rules?

Quote:
My point was, do you think if CCP officially came out and said "No Religion remarks on cans" people would actually follow that rule?
Again, what's so hard about following the rules? Because, yes, that pretty much is the rule, and for some odd reason, a certain segment of players have a very hard time following it…


That is not the way I interpret the rules at all.

Ban players who label a can Merry Christmas? Easter Bunny references? Even typing these it seems ridiculous but to follow your strict interpretation of the rules...

Why is it so difficult for some people to ignore other people's can labels in game? I just can't wrap my head around this thread.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#178 - 2013-06-22 16:32:31 UTC
Klandi wrote:
Please remove thread. Obviously people don't mind having their immersion broken and as you have pointed out, I have to put up with having my immersion broken so this thread is not going to influence that.
Thanks
K


Broken immersion? You get their corp name on the can, wardec them and be totally immersed into EvE style!

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Moth Eisig
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2013-06-22 16:33:32 UTC
Honestly, the real issue that everyone is missing here is that this is a goons plot to get everyone to remove cans from their overviews so they can implement their top secret can fleet doctrine and rule all of New Eden
Ma'Baker McCandless
The McCandless Clan
#180 - 2013-06-22 16:33:42 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
As long as it would be ok if someone places a "Church of Satan" can next to the "Jesus" can it's all good and everyone can continue to display their funny beliefs ingame.

Deal?



Arent these the same religion?