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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#581 - 2013-06-22 09:43:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
One last note for now.

There are players that only fly these ships on a daily basis.

There is so much potential to do something good with these ships in the next 2, 3 weeks for the 1.1 patch. Please don't throw away this opportunity, give them something different, listen to the players requests.

History says that probably will pass years before you / CCP comes back to them. Don't be afraid to do something different and give some happiness to all this players.

Don't waste this opportunity CCP Rise.


You will become their new hero. CCP Fozzie?! who is he? Big smile

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Meduza13
Silver Octopus
Infernal Octopus
#582 - 2013-06-22 10:30:11 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:



I want to assure everyone that I'm very sensitive about this idea as well, and that we all agree there is a lot of value in variation and racial identity.
We value history and racial flavor
Thanks for reading, looking forward to feedback as always.


No offence but I'm not buying it.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#583 - 2013-06-22 11:03:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Imperium Romanus wrote:
@CCP_Rise - Why not add an ore hold to the industrials that don't have a clearly defined role and voila! You got ore/mining haulers.


because then only 2 races have specialised ore haulers and 2 races don't. that's a bigger problem than having a bunch of "somewhere in the middle haulers that don't really do much"

Cross training industrials on a new character without implants takes

- 33m 20s to get in
- 17h 36m 40s to level 3
- 4d 4h 34m to level 4

Spaceship command level 3 is the only prereq left and every new character starts with it.

This is not an issue any more.

Remove standings and insurance.
Dave Stark
#584 - 2013-06-22 11:21:06 UTC
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Imperium Romanus wrote:
@CCP_Rise - Why not add an ore hold to the industrials that don't have a clearly defined role and voila! You got ore/mining haulers.


because then only 2 races have specialised ore haulers and 2 races don't. that's a bigger problem than having a bunch of "somewhere in the middle haulers that don't really do much"

Cross training industrials on a new character without implants takes

- 33m 20s to get in
- 17h 36m 40s to level 3
- 4d 4h 34m to level 4

Spaceship command level 3 is the only prereq left and every new character starts with it.

This is not an issue any more.


why should you have to train another race to access a specialised hauler? there's having flavour and then there's just forcing people to train **** they don't need because they have no other option.
Behnid Arcani
The Lucky Rogers
#585 - 2013-06-22 11:23:20 UTC
Very disappointing. Why don't you play with the warp speeds? Seems like an obvious way to make variations. Some zip across space but carry little, some tank better than an orca, but don't carry as much and fly slow. Some carry more than an orca, but don't have much tank at all, and some have specialised holds.

Or even have in-built warp-stabs?

You looked at the mining barges and gave them different roles based on playstyles: Tank/solo/gang. Didn't anyone do any research into how indies are used in game before "spending too much time on this"?
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
#586 - 2013-06-22 11:56:46 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
tl;dr of changes:
just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.


have you consider that such change will make the Blockade Runners kinda monotonous. the hole point that CCP is "trying" to make is with this idea of revamp the industrial ship class. and with that request why not ask that all freighters get drop from each faction to with their JF counterparts too.
just because CCP is forgetting something as simple like game lore in favor of aesthetics it doesn't mean that they have to.

CCP Rise wrote:
About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)


sorry but this whole thread smells to me as an excuse to hide the pure fact that this change is not purely for "tweaking" the ships but to give them a different look.

Graphics vs. Aesthetics
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#587 - 2013-06-22 12:20:58 UTC
Lledrith wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
tl;dr of changes:
just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.


have you consider that such change will make the Blockade Runners kinda monotonous. the hole point that CCP is "trying" to make is with this idea of revamp the industrial ship class. and with that request why not ask that all freighters get drop from each faction to with their JF counterparts too.
just because CCP is forgetting something as simple like game lore in favor of aesthetics it doesn't mean that they have to.

CCP Rise wrote:
About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)


sorry but this whole thread smells to me as an excuse to hide the pure fact that this change is not purely for "tweaking" the ships but to give them a different look.

Graphics vs. Aesthetics


You're late. The Mammoth issue is already resolved.
Slykar
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#588 - 2013-06-22 12:29:35 UTC
I think its a misstake to use only cargo and tanky... we are in eve.. so we need many diffrent ways and for every way a matching ship.

Thats the list of Items we are transporting in eve..

ORE (big)
Minerals (medium)
Items (medium)
Salvage (small)
PI - Minerals (big)
Gas (dunno medium-big)
Ice (big)
Ships (very big)
Skills and BPO / BPC (very small)

And now CCP want to add all these items to 12 sorts of ships ? - wrong way, we arent in 2005 were we had half of there things.

well thats my idea

CCP add items like a train container... i install a low / rig item to the ship and then i have zero Cargohold + the Modul Bonus. Like 50k for ORE..

for sure max. 1 sort of item per ship...
So the Ships have to be fit for the sort of job they have to do.

i realy dont like to see a retriever hauler ORE... because it is better then most industrial ships which are made for hauling... FAILAttention

Ore-Cargo hold: max 50k m³ Ore
Mineral-Cargo hold: 10k m³ for Minerals
Item-Cargo hold: add 15k m³ for Low/Med/High/Rig/Sub/Drone/Ammo ++
Salvage-Cargo hold: add 500m³ Cargo hold for Salvager Items and maybe Rigs +2 Med +2 Low (because with 500m³ ur ship can transport over 1b and it needs a better defense)
Pi-Cargo hold: add 25k m³ for all sorts of PI
Gas-Cargo hold: add 25K m³ for Gas
Ice-Cargo hold: add 50k m³ to the ship for Ice and only for Ice
Ship-Cargo hold: 100k m³ for ships
Security-Cargo hold: 50m³ +4 Med + 4 Low.... (Skills / BPO / BPC)
++

And now we can split the Ships... Bestower give 100% bonus to the Cargo hold Moduls and the Sigil (Faster and maybe more) 70% or 50%

or Bestower 20% per Skill lvl and Sigil 15%

We use PVP / PVE Ships to transport expensive items but is that right? i dont think so... we need to have a very good ship only for transport.. maybe t3 industrial for the next summer update. :)

if you rebalance ships... make it right for years!

empty
Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#589 - 2013-06-22 13:52:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
MAMMOTH

Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses:
+5% Cargo Capacity
+5% Max Velocity

Slot layout: 1H, 5M(+2), 5L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Fittings: 80 PWG(+20), 750 CPU(+100)
Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5700(+600) / 36511m3
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 310(+36) / 825(-191) / 935(-81)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .91(-.09) / 11500000 / 14.5(-1.4)
Signature radius: 200(+20)


Rise, after you shift Mammoth to be the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity and Hoarder to be the extra ship, you updated the number of Hoarder, BUT NOT THE MAMMOTH.

We are waiting the number of the MAMMOTH.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#590 - 2013-06-22 14:49:28 UTC
Leskit wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:

Rise has done great work so far as he's gone... but I feel like not a lot of imagination has been put into this compared to other ship classes because it's "boring." It's hard to put our faith in an uncertain future for these ships because there's no telling when or if that uncertain future will ever come to pass, particularly with past evidence as a guide.


I'm with Ripard on this one...meaningful racial diversity can be achieved across haulers without making one superior to others, or making them all the nearly identical.

ArrowSome ideas to help the thought process:
resistance bonus
active tanking
shield/armor amount bonus
prop mod bonus
agility/align time bonus
signature radious
bonus to defensive ewar (target spectrum breaker?)
etc.


This is a lot better than the stuff folks keep repeating about specialized material bays on haulers. There is no reason for that kind of complexity and it's just dumb. A hauler that can only haul one thing won't get used.

When was the last time anyone actually saw a Primae undocked? Exactly.
Dave Stark
#591 - 2013-06-22 15:00:40 UTC
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Leskit wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:

Rise has done great work so far as he's gone... but I feel like not a lot of imagination has been put into this compared to other ship classes because it's "boring." It's hard to put our faith in an uncertain future for these ships because there's no telling when or if that uncertain future will ever come to pass, particularly with past evidence as a guide.


I'm with Ripard on this one...meaningful racial diversity can be achieved across haulers without making one superior to others, or making them all the nearly identical.

ArrowSome ideas to help the thought process:
resistance bonus
active tanking
shield/armor amount bonus
prop mod bonus
agility/align time bonus
signature radious
bonus to defensive ewar (target spectrum breaker?)
etc.


This is a lot better than the stuff folks keep repeating about specialized material bays on haulers. There is no reason for that kind of complexity and it's just dumb. A hauler that can only haul one thing won't get used.

When was the last time anyone actually saw a Primae undocked? Exactly.


"Planetary Commodities Hold Capacity 1,000 m3"
"Command Center Hold Capacity 2,000 m3"

that's the reason the primae is never undocked, not because specialised holds are bad. most t1 industrials in their current state are bigger than those bays. when was the last time you saw an orca undock? see? specialised bays are fine, if they are of a size to be useful.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#592 - 2013-06-22 15:10:52 UTC
Behnid Arcani wrote:
Very disappointing. Why don't you play with the warp speeds? Seems like an obvious way to make variations. Some zip across space but carry little


Those are called Blockade Runners (T2, transport ship).

Quote:
some tank better than an orca, but don't carry as much and fly slow.


So, pretty much like current deep space transports (T2, transport ship) but a lot more EHP? What you're asking here is T1 ship with more than 300k EHP that isn't a capital. No, thank you.

Quote:
Some carry more than an orca, but don't have much tank at all


Already in game. Those are called freighters.
Andres Talas
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#593 - 2013-06-22 15:11:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


The CSM particularly has expressed concerns that the class as a whole is becoming too homogenized. I want to assure everyone that I'm very sensitive about this idea as well, and that we all agree there is a lot of value in variation and racial identity. The challenge with industrials is that unlike most other ship classes, their value rests almost exclusively in 1 or 2 attributes (capacity and low slots), so when attempting to add flavor, the reality is that we would simply be limiting actual options.


You've earned a lot of respect from me with the work you've done, but geeez, you've stuffed this one.

You might be very concerned with how the class as a whole is too homoginised, and then you completely homoginised them.

So. Yeah. You could have made Amarr haulers able to survive a little bit longer from a gank. You could have slung Minimatar haulers some align time. You could have given Caldari haulers a bonus for ECM. You could have kept Gallente haulers with their extra little bit of cargo space, and told them to bring a scout and take their chances.

Instead, you made 12 hulls do the work of two.

Just introduce the ORE Hauler and the ORE Secure Hauler and be done with it.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#594 - 2013-06-22 15:20:02 UTC
And since the mammoth is again the biggest, will we get a new model for it? ( i see no other reason for the art department to ask for hoarder to be the biggest)
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#595 - 2013-06-22 15:32:02 UTC
I had some more time to think about industrials and here is my idea of what racial strengths for industrials ships should be:

Amarr: highest cargo capacity for general cargo

Caldari: ability to carry best shield tanks on their industrials, that is best ati-alpha anit-gank survivability among t1 industrials, 2nd best carry capacity for general cargo

Galente: best access to specialised ships as Iterions II, II and IV get enormous specialised cargo holds for ore, minerals, ice, ice products or gass.

Minmatar: worst general cargo capacity but best speed and align times, 2nd best shield tank just after Caldari, one of 3 minmatar industrial ships becomes miniature orca with fleet hangar and refiling services capabilities.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#596 - 2013-06-22 15:42:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:

When was the last time anyone actually saw a Primae undocked? Exactly.


"Planetary Commodities Hold Capacity 1,000 m3"
"Command Center Hold Capacity 2,000 m3"

that's the reason the primae is never undocked, not because specialised holds are bad. most t1 industrials in their current state are bigger than those bays. when was the last time you saw an orca undock? see? specialised bays are fine, if they are of a size to be useful.


Exactly this.

People will use the most efficient hauler for them.

If they're ferrying things back and forth from an asteroid belt, for example, and the ore hold industrial is bigger than the general hauler, they'll use that. One of the reasons people commonly used twin Orcas in big mining operations. One to boost, one to haul.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Auferre
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#597 - 2013-06-22 15:55:07 UTC
This update smells of "We want to get to the good stuff, so let's just simplify the boring ships."

Thing is, lots of industrialists and traders spend lots of time in these "boring" ships. We enter wormholes, run gate camps, haul through lowsec and hisec pipeline systems popular with gankers, and in general supply the people who spend all their time blowing each other (and us) up.

We'd like the same attention paid to industrials that went into the excellent frigate, cruiser, BC and BS updates. (I'd settle for the amount of thought that went into the mining barge and exhumer updates.) Let's face it, we're unlikely to see another balance pass on the industrials any time soon - some meaningful choices in this pass beyond tanky hauler and high capacity hauler would be great.

Ore hauler? PI bay? Assembled ship bay? Racial tanking bonuses? All of these are in the game already, it couldn't take much work to implement them using existing industrial hulls.

This is the only balance pass that's made the affected ships less interesting. Why is that?
Dave Stark
#598 - 2013-06-22 16:03:30 UTC
Auferre wrote:
This is the only balance pass that's made the affected ships less interesting. Why is that?


that's a lie, you can't make haulers any less interesting than they already are.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#599 - 2013-06-22 16:11:41 UTC
1st thing noticed: The new agile, smaller indies can easily fit MWD + Cloak, and with bonus to agility it will make them excellent lowsec haulers, noobs can get into that profession really fast, I like.
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#600 - 2013-06-22 16:36:55 UTC
Ugh! I am finaly through this thread and I have to say that CCP has just phoned this in. Squeezing eight ships into what 2 would have done and making four simply superfluous. I had such high hopes that the industrial line would "pop", but I was mistaken. You could have given each race something unique, something to crostrain for, but you made them all basically the same.

I would gladly crostrain into another races industrials if that race was clearly the best choice for, ore hauling, PI product hauling, general freight hauling, heck even transporting rigged and fit ships. You have let a great opportunity slip by by not giving more thought into making each races industial ships have a unique niche to fill, like the racial electronic warfare. Insead you just went with homogenizing the industials into a grey sameness differentiated only by slot layout and art model.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka