Player Features and Ideas Discussion

No, the real answer is CCP doesn't have time to actually fix industrials. So we're getting a quick fix which fixes nothing and makes some things measurably worse. Rise himself has mentioned things throughout this thread that could make things actually better for the class, but it hits art bottlenecks, lore problems, or time constraints from added complexity in design.

There is an answer to the Orca question, but chances of us ever seeing it is pretty much nihil. Industrial rebalance wasn't even on the road map from what I saw from fanfest presentations, so it's a nice surprise they're looking at it at all. But this feels slap dash all the way around. "Oh, we accidentally Industrial 1'd the whole class. Should probably do something with that.".

Not being funny or anything CCP Rise when I was a nooblet being born in Haudaugo all those years ago and dreaming of building a trade empire, I saw a mammoth undock and I was in complete awe. It's what got me to train Minmatar Industrial 5 as on of the first ship skills to 5.

Also, that ship!

(Just trying to keep this post short).

There is simply no way you are going to make everyone happy, that's not going to happen - ever.

Having read through the changes and the reasons why you're making them, I can only say 'Congratulations', a lot of thought, time and effort has gone into this. Changes look very decent, although some people will no doubt be hacked-off or start asking "why this and not that". That's so easy to do when you're not the one actually trying to make sense of a plethora of variables, some variables which have less to do with the physical attributes of the ships than the actual effect the modified ships will have in game.

No doubt some additional tweaking will still happen, but bearing in mind the larger picture, all the ships, all the differing playstyles and how they affect each other and interact with each other, your work here is nothing short of brilliant. At the risk of scorching my nose with a brown stain, extremely well done, Sir o7

Why promote autopiloting (AFK activity) with +5% to velocity bonus instead of rewarding active industrial pilots with +% to warp-speed bonus?
Fix warp-speed acceleration/deceleration while you're at it.

The discussion seems to be over, but I'm baffled by many of the posts in the Hoarder/Mammoth debate which claim that the art department has said they think the Mammoth is ugly. When/where did they say that? CCP Rise says only that they don't like the way it looks, which is a very different matter. A film's casting director might say he doesn't like the look of a particular actress but that doesn't mean he thinks that she's ugly, just that her looks don't suit his purpose.

Likewise with the Mammoth. The other races each have a generic racial 'look' to their industrial ships. The Amarr ships have the typical Amarr carapace shape; the Caldari are all variations of the same hull with enlarged mid-section portions added as necessary; the Gallente all have the same front section, with four also having a similar propulsion block at the rear and the rest of the hull being various combinations of standard modular units. On the other hand only two Minmatar indies share a common racial look - the Wreathe and the Hoarder. Both have a brick-like appearance and have small engines mounted on outrigger sponsons at the front end, plus the Hoarder looks rather like two beefed-up Wreathes stacked one above the other.

On the above basis I would rather see the Mammoth hull sidelined for the sake of continuity of the racial similarity of the other two, even though I like the look of the Mammoth and have two of them and only one Hoarder (all rigged). The main problem I see is that most existing Mammoth pilots will have selected the ship because of its high capacity - the obvious solution to that would be to switch the hulls around.

Some posters also saw a problem with the Mastadon being the Minmatar DST if the Mammoth was sidelined and yet make no comment on the fact that both Gallente T2 indies are based on hulls which are now to be sidelined.

If the Hoarder is now to be the surplus item I strongly disagree with the proposed reduction in its base capacity, which results in a maximum capacity with expanders and T1 rigs which is very little more than the Wreathe - that can't be right. If it kept its present base value it would make more sense as maxed out it would have a similar capacity to the Iteron III.

I think the Iteron IV should also keep its existing base capacity to give it a bigger lead over the smaller versions.

Speculator is speculative

you mean, the very thing people loved about it?

Woah this thread has gone ways, now the mammoth seems to be on the high seat again. I guess no more planning for a set of new cargo rigs to build.

I was thinking we've discussed all axis of rebalancing, tank vs cargo vs looks vs utility vs flexibility vs ...

But we've forgotten an important one. VERTICALITY.

Naglmoth

While I welcome discussions and proposed changes to the T1 Industrials, I can't help but think that these changes are premature. The reason being that they're being done without a simultaneous look at the T2 Industrials. In this case it is better to see the whole picture first.

Since Industrials are not so hard to balance as combat ships, might I make a suggestion to CCP Rise? Delay the T1 Industrial rebalance. Put it on the backburner until you've rebalanced all the T2 ships, then take a look at T1 and T2 Industrial together.

Use the time to better consider the options for the roles of Industrials as a whole, regardless of tech level. Read the suggestions given here, weigh them in, give it all more time. I'm one of those that think it's weird that only two roles are possible for haulers, fast low-yielders and slow high-yielders. Surely there must be more options possible, but I cannot say for sure until I see the suggestions and possibilities for the T2 Industrials as well.

(On a personal note and to eliminate any possible bias, I'm not bothered if the changes go live. I'm one of those weird sods who has all four Industrial skills trained to 5.)

Not wanting to use the leftover 4 haulers is quite a bit different from not knowing what to do with the primary ones.

We know that we were very unhappy with their balance, especially in light of the skill requirement changes, so there isn't anything premature about the balance we're giving the 8 base ships. Also there's no reason that dealing with the main group restricts our ability to come back to the others.