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missile dominance

Author
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-06-20 20:46:02 UTC
Its probably just perception but in my time reading on the forums it seems like

1) caldari is more prevalent than other factions. Its always jita this, jita that. Why the focus on caldari faction?

2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships

3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior?
Jeann Valjean
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-20 20:53:34 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
Its probably just perception but in my time reading on the forums it seems like

1) caldari is more prevalent than other factions. Its always jita this, jita that. Why the focus on caldari faction?

2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships

3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior?


1) Jita is the market hub. It has nothing to do with race.

2) These are simply some of the most iconic/popular hulls in the game. Again, it says nothing about the race of the pilot.

3) In PvE probably. Definitely not for PvP. Again, nothing to do with race as many pilots cross-train for different platforms.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#3 - 2013-06-20 20:54:25 UTC
Missiles bought at Jita have damage bonus built in and Caldari citizens get huge discounts on bulk buy orders at all Jita stations but especially at 4-4.

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Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-06-20 21:23:14 UTC
Jeann Valjean wrote:
Ciyrine wrote:
Its probably just perception but in my time reading on the forums it seems like

1) caldari is more prevalent than other factions. Its always jita this, jita that. Why the focus on caldari faction?

2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships

3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior?


1) Jita is the market hub. It has nothing to do with race.

2) These are simply some of the most iconic/popular hulls in the game. Again, it says nothing about the race of the pilot.

3) In PvE probably. Definitely not for PvP. Again, nothing to do with race as many pilots cross-train for different platforms.


1) But jita is not the only market hub. All the factions have one right?

2) their the most popular for a reason

All this caldari dominance in ship, weapon sysyem. Economy. Whats behind all of it?

3) so missiles arent the prevalent weapon system for pvp? Was just reading topic guy was all excited about making missiles on account of good/test war. He didnt mention other munitions. Not that i think others arent being used. But if this guy was predominantly excited about prividing missiles doesnt jive with the notion that missiles arent most popular weapon in pvp as well as pve
Solderan
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
#5 - 2013-06-20 21:31:57 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
Jeann Valjean wrote:
Ciyrine wrote:
Its probably just perception but in my time reading on the forums it seems like

1) caldari is more prevalent than other factions. Its always jita this, jita that. Why the focus on caldari faction?

2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships

3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior?


1) Jita is the market hub. It has nothing to do with race.

2) These are simply some of the most iconic/popular hulls in the game. Again, it says nothing about the race of the pilot.

3) In PvE probably. Definitely not for PvP. Again, nothing to do with race as many pilots cross-train for different platforms.


1) But jita is not the only market hub. All the factions have one right?

2) their the most popular for a reason

All this caldari dominance in ship, weapon sysyem. Economy. Whats behind all of it?

3) so missiles arent the prevalent weapon system for pvp? Was just reading topic guy was all excited about making missiles on account of good/test war. He didnt mention other munitions. Not that i think others aren't being used. But if this guy was predominantly excited about prividing missiles doesnt jive with the notion that missiles aren't most popular weapon in pvp as well as pve
Missiles aren't good pvp weapons. Turrets are far more popular in pvp. Missiles are popular in pve because you can choose dmg type and match them to the weak point of the rats you are fighting.

Which turrets are the best in pvp is a topic of much debate.
Taoist Dragon
x Never Regret x
#6 - 2013-06-20 21:35:46 UTC
you are new so ignorance can be forgiven but don't jump to conclusions based on the few players who post on these forums.

Caldari ships and missiles have their good and bad points. For both pve and pvp. in time you will learn them and decide if the ships/weapons system are for you.

DON'T RUSH IT.

As for Jita being 'the' trade hub, well it is human nature to have one area were we can all go for stuff. Yes there are market hubs in each of the empire spaces and various other systems that serve small comunities in their locale but Jita has evolved to be the biggest market hub in eve over the decade or so of it's existance. Deal with it.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-06-20 22:22:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Ciyrine wrote:
1) But jita is not the only market hub. All the factions have one right?


Yes but Jita is the largest hub. One of them has to be the biggest and it happens to be Jita.

Ciyrine wrote:
2) their the most popular for a reason


Missiles are lazy mode for PvE and probably the easiest weapon system for a new player to understand. So missile boats are popular for PvE.

Ciyrine wrote:
All this caldari dominance in ship, weapon sysyem. Economy. Whats behind all of it?


I wouldn't call it dominance. Just coincidental. The PvP world is very different from the PvE world as far as ships and weapons go and Jita just happens to be in Caldari space.

Ciyrine wrote:
3) so missiles arent the prevalent weapon system for pvp? Was just reading topic guy was all excited about making missiles on account of good/test war. He didnt mention other munitions. Not that i think others arent being used. But if this guy was predominantly excited about prividing missiles doesnt jive with the notion that missiles arent most popular weapon in pvp as well as pve


Missiles are still used in PvP. They just aren't the dominant weapon system like they are in PvE. It's also possible that he was posting false or misleading information. Market activity is a form if PvP too after all.
Denuo Secus
#8 - 2013-06-20 22:30:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
@Missiles in PvP: they are average. Unlike turrets you cannot do critical hits with missiles. Also you cannot maximize your damage by lowering transversal. Missiles will do less damage against small and/or fast targets. You need to fit modules (TP, Web, Rigors, Flare) to counter this effect. A turret ship can do this just by piloting or positioning. A non-gimp fitted missile ship will never blap a smaller target with one volley. But on the other side: they do damage in every case. Also they're ewar proof. All this makes missiles quite flexible.

But as said: you cannot get 'peak performance' with missiles. Except the target size matches exactly or exceeds your missile size. In this case missiles perform better than long range turrets - missiles have the best damage projection. At cost of delayed damage at range. Which isn't an huge issue in small gang PvP.

Then fitting. Turrets have tiers. You can shift your turret fitting more towards tank by lowering your turret tier. At cost of range and damage - but increased tracking. Missiles don't have tiers. So you cannot fit a Torp Raven like an Electron Mega. Exception: Rapid Light Missile Launcher. A medium sized launcher firing light missiles at higher rate. It's the only exception to this rule and quite handy on missile cruisers.

In short: there is no better.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-20 23:20:58 UTC
The market hubs sort of evolved organically; once upon a time, CCP intended for the main market hub to be in Yulai, in CONCORD space, but Jita ended up drawing more traffic due to a bunch of factors - a while back, there was an advantage to training Achura Caldari (since corrected), and Jita turned out to have an advantageous location on the map - close to Amarr, not far from Gallente territory, easily accessible from lowsec, with good resource-rich systems and agents in the neighborhood. And once a critical mass was reached, Jita became the commercial center of EVE. The other empires have evolved their own hubs - Dodixie for the Gallente, Amarr (I keep thinking of it as Amarr Prime) for the Amarr, and the Minmatar ended up with both Rens and Hek. But Jita became a trade hub much like New York did, once upon a time.

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-06-20 23:50:10 UTC
You can't go by what's posted in the forms to tell what is popular. Here's what I suggest you do to see what is really popular.

1. Fit at least 50 ships. You need a higher number to get a true representation. Make sure they're fairly expensive so they aren't ignored.

2. Fly them through various lowsec and nullsec systems.

3. Get blown up

4. Look at the loss mail to see what killed you.

5. Post back on here with results of your scientific study.

I have a feeling you'll see more guns than missiles but I could be wrong.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-06-20 23:56:06 UTC
IIshira wrote:
You can't go by what's posted in the forms to tell what is popular. Here's what I suggest you do to see what is really popular.

1. Fit at least 50 ships. You need a higher number to get a true representation. Make sure they're fairly expensive so they aren't ignored.

2. Fly them through various lowsec and nullsec systems.

3. Get blown up

4. Look at the loss mail to see what killed you.

5. Post back on here with results of your scientific study.

I have a feeling you'll see more guns than missiles but I could be wrong.


you thought of that all by yourself did you? I prefer you fly an expensive ship. Ill shoot you with different weapons and Ill tell you which way I enjoyed killing you the most. Then Ill come back here and post the scientific study
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-06-21 00:02:28 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
IIshira wrote:
You can't go by what's posted in the forms to tell what is popular. Here's what I suggest you do to see what is really popular.

1. Fit at least 50 ships. You need a higher number to get a true representation. Make sure they're fairly expensive so they aren't ignored.

2. Fly them through various lowsec and nullsec systems.

3. Get blown up

4. Look at the loss mail to see what killed you.

5. Post back on here with results of your scientific study.

I have a feeling you'll see more guns than missiles but I could be wrong.


you thought of that all by yourself did you? I prefer you fly an expensive ship. Ill shoot you with different weapons and Ill tell you which way I enjoyed killing you the most. Then Ill come back here and post the scientific study


That might be be fun but it wouldn't answer your question. It was meant to be a little funny but you would learn what was popular if you did that. I use both missiles and guns for PVE. For PVP I used to fly a Drake with missiles but that was a while ago.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-06-21 00:11:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
Quote:
That might be be fun but it wouldn't answer your question. It was meant to be a little funny but you would learn what was popular if you did that. I use both missiles and guns for PVE. For PVP I used to fly a Drake with missiles but that was a while ago


flying expensive ships to find out what people are using is very funny. But it does give me an idea to look at the killboards and see whats dying. And whatevers dying is also what people are flying to kill with.

Someone might even be able to use the info of killboards to determine statistically what your most likely to run up against and therefore build your ship as a good counter
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-06-21 00:33:17 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
Its always jita this, jita that.

This is due to path dependence and the network effect. Path dependence means that your current and future choices are determined by your past choices. For example, if your country's marketplace chose to have cars with steering wheels on the right hand side, a car company that only makes left hand drive cars will do poorly in the marketplace. The network effect means that as more buyers go to Jita, sellers will get better prices selling in Jita. As more sellers go to Jita, buyers get better deals shopping in Jita.

Historically, Jita used to be a mission hub for Caldari factions. There was a healthy number of "high quality" mission agents (back when quality existed - high quality agents gave more isk and loyalty points than lower quality agents at the same level) and a decent amount of asteroid belts. Most travel from one end of Caldari space to another would pass through Jita. This meant that Jita always had a healthy population.

Yulai used to be the original hub - to get from one faction space to another would require traveling through Yulai back when there were "highway gates".

Ciyrine wrote:
Why the focus on caldari faction?

In the beginning, different bloodlines had different skills and attributes. Today, the only real differences are face and what racial frigate you fly. In the beginning, some bloodlines had no skills in mining or industry.

Today, Caldari appears to be more popular, probably from an appearance issue.
Quote:
There's a certain line of thinking that says that most EVE players are white middle-aged Caucasian males and it just so happens that the Deteis/Civere avatars match up quite closely with your average white middle-aged Caucasian male in appearance.
Source

Quote:
Players just did what the huge crowds do: path of least resistance and inertia as selection criteria.

Caldari characters in the old system used to:

- be the quickest to train for PvE => L4 money making.

- be the quickest and min maxed for research.

- be good for production (I don't recall if they were the best).

- Male caldaris looked ugly though.

- The combat missions yield the highest income. The starting place was nearby.

- Nice plus, close by manufacturing facilities, large station without "pull out" effect and close planet aligned to be a natural instant undock.


Result: ziribillions of female Caldari pilots, therefore the "reference hub" would be some central place in Caldari empire, preferably belonging to a combat missions corporation.

Jita is at a natural center of missioning hubs, ice fields. Got conveniently close to low sec (see Hek). It had its agents and belts afaik.

Source

Ciyrine wrote:
2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships

3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior?

The Drake is an easy ship to fly and with the large shield and capacitor, requires less skill (mostly the skill between the keyboard and chair) to fly.

The popularity of Ravens and Tengus are due more to the popularity of missiles.

Missiles always hit their target. There is no tracking issues to worry about (only speed of the target in relation to the speed of the explosion reducing the damage), no consideration of "am I in optimal range or falloff?" This makes using missiles easier for players to consider. People can't focus on too many things at once - and each person has their own limit of the number of different things they can focus on at once. Cognitive overload (too many things going on at once) is a factor in car and aircraft accidents. That's why texting and driving is illegal in many jurisdictions.
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-06-21 01:07:50 UTC
Huttan Funaila wrote:

The Drake is an easy ship to fly and with the large shield and capacitor, requires less skill (mostly the skill between the keyboard and chair) to fly.

The popularity of Ravens and Tengus are due more to the popularity of missiles.

Missiles always hit their target. There is no tracking issues to worry about (only speed of the target in relation to the speed of the explosion reducing the damage), no consideration of "am I in optimal range or falloff?" This makes using missiles easier for players to consider. People can't focus on too many things at once - and each person has their own limit of the number of different things they can focus on at once. Cognitive overload (too many things going on at once) is a factor in car and aircraft accidents. That's why texting and driving is illegal in many jurisdictions.


huh, it seemed to me that missiles were more involved. They have range considerations, the speed of the target matters vs explosion velocity, the size of the target vs explosion radius.

With other weapon types its range, how fast their orbiting vs your tracking. So one less consideration.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-06-21 01:32:47 UTC
Solderan wrote:
Missiles aren't good pvp weapons. Turrets are far more popular in pvp. Missiles are popular in pve because you can choose dmg type and match them to the weak point of the rats you are fighting.

Which turrets are the best in pvp is a topic of much debate.



Missiles are fine PvP weapons its simply a matter of application

1) Missiles are prefectly capable of picking prefered damage, and unlike projectiles they do pure damage, not two damage types like the matari.

2) lasers and hybrids ARE jammed into damage types, EM/therm for lasers and Kin/therm for hybrid that is what you get...both of which use cap...unlike missiles

3) http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 looks like missiles are suffereing.

4) Battleship missiles have issues that are slowly being addressed, large turrets of all types are pretty good. Again, depending on application, taking rails to fight tengu's is generally a bad idea, as is bringing lasers for an AHAC fleet.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#17 - 2013-06-21 01:53:55 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:


huh, it seemed to me that missiles were more involved. They have range considerations, the speed of the target matters vs explosion velocity, the size of the target vs explosion radius.

With other weapon types its range, how fast their orbiting vs your tracking. So one less consideration.


Guns have these things to worry about:
Signature radius
Transversal velocity
Optimal Range
Falloff
Hit Quality
Capacitor use (lasers and hybrids)

Missiles you only need to worry about:
Target Signature radius
Target Speed
Missile range

Transversal is the biggest difference, once fit a missile user only has to keep in range and they will be doing Max damage. If you are using guns you have to worry about, their speed, your speed and how they relate to each other, how fan into falloff you want to go what type of ammo to choose for the range (missiles it really comes down to 3 options , faction and the 2 T2 types)
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#18 - 2013-06-21 06:35:16 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
Its probably just perception but in my time reading on the forums it seems like

1) caldari is more prevalent than other factions. Its always jita this, jita that. Why the focus on caldari faction?

2) tengu, raven, drake. These ships come up with much higher frequency in topics than other ships

3) missiles are more prevalent than other weapon systems. Are the other weapons inferior?



I have exactly the ame feeling. And in numerous video guides for beginners I was told, that caldary and minmatar are two races to choose if you are going to fight a lot. But their ships are so ugly, that I've choosen Gallente. If you are good in drones management, Gallente also can offer you a nice bunch of war vessels. It is just harder to fit them due to rather low CPU...
Rexxorr
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-06-21 06:37:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rexxorr
As far as Jita being the market hub...

I read on the forums about calculations done to find the center star system ( Jump wise... ), Turns out Kaaputenen was that center and Jita is nearby to that system.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=580998
Shaolin Funk
Var Legion
#20 - 2013-06-21 07:25:09 UTC
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