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'Local' is a problem? Why is that? (further study on AFK cloaking subject)

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Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#281 - 2013-06-20 18:43:50 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Honestly, I don't know why this discussion is continuing.

The fix is simple, balanced and fair: make cloaks use fuel. Doesn't have to be a lot of fuel. It's just going to run out sometime and if you want to do it for extended periods, you're going to need to go get some more.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3230723#post3230723

I've already got a plan. Lol Among other ideas to counter it.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Mag's
Azn Empire
#282 - 2013-06-20 18:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Victoria Sin wrote:
Honestly, I don't know why this discussion is continuing.

The fix is simple, balanced and fair: make cloaks use fuel. Doesn't have to be a lot of fuel. It's just going to run out sometime and if you want to do it for extended periods, you're going to need to go get some more.
What are you trying to fix here?
Why is this balanced and fair?
Why shouldn't people be allowed to go AFK for extended periods?
Would you also suggest a station or POS, kicks a player out after a certain time AFK?
Why should covert ops pilots be nerfed, because others cannot handle the fact local isn't providing 100% perfect and easy to read instant intel?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#283 - 2013-06-20 18:49:10 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Honestly, I don't know why this discussion is continuing.

The fix is simple, balanced and fair: make cloaks use fuel. Doesn't have to be a lot of fuel. It's just going to run out sometime and if you want to do it for extended periods, you're going to need to go get some more.
What are you trying to fix here?
Why is this balanced and fair?
Why shouldn't people be allowed to go AFK for extended periods?
Would you also suggest a station or POS, kicks a player out after a certain time AFK?
Why should covert ops pilots be nerfed, because others cannot handle the fact local isn't providing 100% perfect instant intel?


How awesome would that be? I have several random Titans and supercaps bookmarked that I could wait to just go flying out of the pos shields. Lol

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Mag's
Azn Empire
#284 - 2013-06-20 18:51:04 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Honestly, I don't know why this discussion is continuing.

The fix is simple, balanced and fair: make cloaks use fuel. Doesn't have to be a lot of fuel. It's just going to run out sometime and if you want to do it for extended periods, you're going to need to go get some more.
What are you trying to fix here?
Why is this balanced and fair?
Why shouldn't people be allowed to go AFK for extended periods?
Would you also suggest a station or POS, kicks a player out after a certain time AFK?
Why should covert ops pilots be nerfed, because others cannot handle the fact local isn't providing 100% perfect and easy to read instant intel?


How awesome would that be? I have several random Titans and supercaps bookmarked that I could wait to just go flying out of the pos shields. Lol
I agree the lolz would be epic.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#285 - 2013-06-20 18:59:10 UTC
Mag's wrote:

What are you trying to fix here?


The AFK cloaking problem.

Mag's wrote:

Why is this balanced and fair?


It solves the AFK cloaking problem with a game mechanic that makes sense from all perspectives.

Mag's wrote:

Why shouldn't people be allowed to go AFK for extended periods?


They can. They just need a lot of fuel.

Mag's wrote:

Would you also suggest a station or POS, kicks a player out after a certain time AFK?


Straw man.

Mag's wrote:

Why should covert ops pilots be nerfed, because others cannot handle the fact local isn't providing 100% perfect and easy to read instant intel?


It isn't a nerf.
BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
#286 - 2013-06-20 19:00:51 UTC
REMOVELOCAL-WOOHOO-REMOVELOCAL

Primary Test Subject • SmackTalker Elite
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#287 - 2013-06-20 19:01:35 UTC
Quote:
The AFK cloaking problem.


A problem suggests there is currently no available solution to it. You have been offered quiet a variety of solutions to date.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#288 - 2013-06-20 19:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Victoria Sin wrote:
The AFK cloaking problem.
What's the problem?

Quote:
It solves the AFK cloaking problem with a game mechanic that makes sense from all perspectives.
What's the problem? How does it in any way make sense from any perspective?

Quote:
They can. They just need a lot of fuel.
…so they can't do it for extended periods in other words. Why shouldn't they be allowed to?

Quote:
Straw man.
No, it's a reductio ad absurdum. If it's somehow a problem that people go AFK in a system for a long time, then it's a problem that people go AFK in a system for a long time. So how do you propose to solve the AFK in station problem if not by applying the same fuel mechanic and exposing them to open space when they run out?

Quote:
It isn't a nerf.
…aside from imposing a limit where none was before for no adequately explained reason. I.e. a nerf.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#289 - 2013-06-20 19:06:21 UTC
What Tippia said.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#290 - 2013-06-20 19:08:14 UTC
Mag's wrote:
What Tippia said.


What mag's said Tippia said.
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#291 - 2013-06-20 19:11:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mag's wrote:
What Tippia said.


What mag's said Tippia said.


What Jenn said mag's said Tippia said.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#292 - 2013-06-20 19:12:45 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mag's wrote:
What Tippia said.


What mag's said Tippia said.


What Jenn said mag's said Tippia said.


Next ting you know we'll be dividing by zero . The edn fo the world is the perfect solution to both local AND afk cloaking.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#293 - 2013-06-20 19:14:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mag's wrote:
What Tippia said.


What mag's said Tippia said.


What Jenn said mag's said Tippia said.


Next ting you know we'll be dividing by zero . The edn fo the world is the perfect solution to both local AND afk cloaking.



But I feel fine.



☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#294 - 2013-06-20 19:15:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…so they can't do it for extended periods in other words. Why shouldn't they be allowed to?


They can. But like all choices it has a cost. It's up to the individual player to decide if it's worth the cost.

Quote:
No, it's a reductio ad absurdum.


No, it's a straw man, because the issue isn't going AFK. It's going AFK cloaked with the element of intentionality to in some way disrupt the behaviour of others. In that respect it isn't benign. That is why I think it needs to have a cost. You pay costs like this all the time in null, with your ship fittings and so on, trying to optimise GTFO ability with (for example) NPC killing ability. Or paying the cost of tanking rats by not fitting 3 x mining upgrades on your mac.

Quote:
…aside from imposing a limit where none was before for no adequately explained reason. I.e. a nerf.


I understand nerf to mean some kind of reduction in capability. But with this kind of thing, it's a nerf to some and a boost to others. A bit like WTZ was. You can still afk cloaked, but eventually your fuel is going to run out. You pay the cost of the fuel and if you want to do it for extended periods, the risk and cost of getting resupplied.

It's beautiful Lol.
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#295 - 2013-06-20 19:15:56 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Skill Training Online wrote:
Close your local window, Problem Solved.


If doing that removed me from everyone else's local, then I would.


As would I.

Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#296 - 2013-06-20 19:23:06 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…so they can't do it for extended periods in other words. Why shouldn't they be allowed to?


They can. But like all choices it has a cost. It's up to the individual player to decide if it's worth the cost.

Quote:
No, it's a reductio ad absurdum.


No, it's a straw man, because the issue isn't going AFK. It's going AFK cloaked with the element of intentionality to in some way disrupt the behaviour of others. In that respect it isn't benign. That is why I think it needs to have a cost. You pay costs like this all the time in null, with your ship fittings and so on, trying to optimise GTFO ability with (for example) NPC killing ability. Or paying the cost of tanking rats by not fitting 3 x mining upgrades on your mac.

Quote:
…aside from imposing a limit where none was before for no adequately explained reason. I.e. a nerf.


I understand nerf to mean some kind of reduction in capability. But with this kind of thing, it's a nerf to some and a boost to others. A bit like WTZ was. You can still afk cloaked, but eventually your fuel is going to run out. You pay the cost of the fuel and if you want to do it for extended periods, the risk and cost of getting resupplied.

It's beautiful Lol.


Watch out! Here comes Jenn and Tippia to tell you that it is lazy to want new game mechanics.

My solution would just be to make them scannable with special equipment. You could even make it have to work with multiple ships for all I care. I just want them to be detectable for some level if effort so that a cloak is not a hall pass to everywhere.

But no, that is weak and lazy. So, I guess the founders of the US were wrong for not working within the monarchy system to create freedom. How lazy of them.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#297 - 2013-06-20 19:23:40 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:


The AFK cloaking problem.


Posting to confirm I was just killed by an AFK cloaker. Or he cyno'd in a fleet on top of me while being AFK cloaked. Roll
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#298 - 2013-06-20 19:27:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Victoria Sin wrote:
They can.
…except that if they do, their fuel runs out, so they can't. So, the question remains: why shouldn't they be able to?

Quote:
No, it's a straw man, because the issue isn't going AFK. It's going AFK cloaked with the element of intentionality to in some way disrupt the behaviour of others.
…which you can do in stations as well, so obviously the same rule should apply. Oh, and “intentionality’? How do you propose to measure that mechanically? Supposedly, those who go AFK cloak without any such intention should be left alone, right? Because if not, then we're definitely just talking about being AFK in general, in which case stations should start punting you into space once you run out of fuel… so no, it's a reductio ad absurdum serving to illustrate that the stated problem isn't actually any kind of problem at all, much less the problem people are having.

Cloaking already has a cost: it either massively nerfs your ship, or it restricts you to a very weak ship, and either way, it doesn't let you do anything while cloaked. The cost is built into the module.

Quote:
I understand nerf to mean some kind of reduction in capability.
…which is why the proposal is a nerf. The capability of the ships and modules is reduced.

Oh, and the actual problem and the value of the proposed solution is still left unexplained.

Shizuken wrote:
My solution would just be to make them scannable with special equipment.
That's even worse. It completely breaks gameplay in one third of the game's system, all to supposedly adjust something no-one can explain why it is a problem that needs any adjustment at all.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#299 - 2013-06-20 19:28:40 UTC
Shizuken wrote:



But no, that is weak and lazy. So, I guess the founders of the US were wrong for not working within the monarchy system to create freedom. How lazy of them.


So you are comparing a nation of people who wanted to govern themselves with people playing a video game and using in-game items the way they were intended......

Yep, I'd point and laugh, but what would be the point, everyone is already laughing at you.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#300 - 2013-06-20 19:30:28 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:


The AFK cloaking problem.


Posting to confirm I was just killed by an AFK cloaker. Or he cyno'd in a fleet on top of me while being AFK cloaked. Roll


The cloaker didn't kill me, but I know he was looking at me funny even though i can not see him. I can FEEL his gaze, as if one just walked into Mordor or something.

Hold me!