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AFK Cloaking - Sponser a Newb

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#41 - 2013-06-20 16:54:23 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.


This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.

For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6


A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.

The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#42 - 2013-06-20 17:03:04 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

It takes time to replace a bunch of scared pvers with risk takers. If the profit is there people will come.

Regarding your last paragraph I think you failed to address it because it really is irrefutable. CSM are all nullets invested in the profit from a safe null. Devs I doubt all really agree with your or CSMs POV.


Your ideas are wrong because they come from a place of tinfoli hattery and self serving bias. it's a good thing you're not a game maker.

We have plenty of evidence right now that what you expect to happen will not happen. Wormholes are at the top of the evidence pile (LOOK at the population numbers there). You can make more isk in a wormhole with a good organization than you can anywhere else, yet the general wormhole population is small and while i don't have the stats in front of me from that dev blog last year, i'd bet a lot of isk that wormholes have the lowest population density of any part of EVE.

And this is what you want to do to null/low sec? As I said, MOST people (especially most EVE players) aren't folks like me, most of them wouldn't screw with null with no local and no local replacement. And a small anom nerf was enough to damn near empty null, so believing that taking away local will somehow inspire the same people to stay in null is naive (bordering on irresponsible).

If you want a null with no local, suggest changes to the system that would work(not for you or me, but for the average null resident) and that take into account and mitigate the possible unintended consequences.

You and the rest of the "no local" crowd don't seem to understand the importance of this and then get a bit butt hurt when CCP ignores you as they have for the last decade.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-06-20 17:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.


This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.

For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6


A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.

The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.

A singular change to a interconnected system obviously wont work. A change would have to take into account the possible side effects if that change and address those issues too. It seems like you are attempting to discount changes to your "interconnected" system with rationalization based on simplistic solutions.

If a cyno had a delay before it could be used it could also have a equal delay before it could be interacted. It could then function as a warning, preventing hotdropping but allowing jump into system. All that would have to change would be tactics.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#44 - 2013-06-20 17:11:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.


This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.

For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6


A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.

The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.



Ok, I'll bite. What reasoning/excuse do you have for the idea of making the cyno ship untargetable during that time period (while the ship itself is completely disabled)? (lorewise: blame it on the space/time distortions caused by the process of opening the cyno)

Profit favors the prepared
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#45 - 2013-06-20 17:12:05 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.


This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.

For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6


A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.

The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.

A singular change to a interconnected system obviously wont work. A change would have to take into account the possible side effects if that change and address those issues too. It seems like you are attempting to discount changes to your "interconnected" system with rationalization based on simplistic solutions.

If a cyno had a delay before it could be used it could also have a equal delay before it could be interacted. It could then function as a warning, preventing hotdropping but allowing jump into system. All that would have to change would be tactics.


The point of the current system for fleet warfare is that in doesn't just bring a fleet in, it allows us to do so while the enemy is in a position to be engaged.

A delay to a cyno means the enemy fleet can warp tot eh cyno, bubble the hell out of it and a sniper fit enemy force can sit there and pick off EVERYONE as they come in (since they are loading grid and tidi is in full effect).

It give a supreme advantage to the defender in a big fleet fight, making it WAY easier for alliances to entrench and hold space.

it took me 10 seconds to shoot holes in the idea of a delay cyno (the big hole of making sov warfare suck more than it does now to the benefit of old, big fatcat alliances). How many holes do you think thousands of other players could shoot through it?
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-06-20 17:12:42 UTC
If ur in null ratting in faction bs and afk cloaker is there u have no choice but to downgrade ur ship severely right? Get a cheaper ship with more focus on escape? Im a complete newb so i shouldnt even be here commenting but that does seem pretty drastic system wide effect with no ability to track the cloaker down.

Seems to me some difficult to accomplish scanning method would be appropriate so that retaliation would be possible. Everything is risk/reward what risk is the afk cloaker taking? If it took 2 hrs to track the cloaker down that would ne good option so that the cloaker and threatened players have active interaction.

So it wouldnt be about changing cloaking so much as giving players the ability to hunt the cloaker down like submarine and destroyers. Cat and mouse. If the cloaker goes afk he gets caught
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#47 - 2013-06-20 17:14:07 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.


This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.

For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6


A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.

The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.



Ok, I'll bite. What reasoning/excuse do you have for the idea of making the cyno ship untargetable during that time period (while the ship itself is completely disabled)? (lorewise: blame it on the space/time distortions caused by the process of opening the cyno)


see the post directly below this one. in a big fleet fight all a defending FC would have to do is bubble the hell out of the cyno and area around it. a delayed cynoing fleet would get SLAUGHTERED by bombers and sniper doctrine fleets.

Come on guys, thinking ain't hard lol.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2013-06-20 17:21:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
The simple solution would be a delay between when a cyno is lit, and when it can be used.


This breaks sov warfare tactics, as a large enemy fleet can simply kill a cyno pilot before support can bridge in.

For reference and for old times sake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDVEHE10nHc&list=PL566BFC69B63517A6


A perfect example of what I said above. A change to how cynos work doesn't just affect afk cloakers trying to hotdrop, it affects other aspects of the game. You can't just say "make this simple change and everything will work out fine" in a complex interconnected system that 10s of thousands of human beings are using and trying to take apart.

The "Brilliant idea" people have never understood this concept at all. I tend to avoid the features and ideas section because of that.

A singular change to a interconnected system obviously wont work. A change would have to take into account the possible side effects if that change and address those issues too. It seems like you are attempting to discount changes to your "interconnected" system with rationalization based on simplistic solutions.

If a cyno had a delay before it could be used it could also have a equal delay before it could be interacted. It could then function as a warning, preventing hotdropping but allowing jump into system. All that would have to change would be tactics.


The point of the current system for fleet warfare is that in doesn't just bring a fleet in, it allows us to do so while the enemy is in a position to be engaged.

A delay to a cyno means the enemy fleet can warp tot eh cyno, bubble the hell out of it and a sniper fit enemy force can sit there and pick off EVERYONE as they come in (since they are loading grid and tidi is in full effect).

It give a supreme advantage to the defender in a big fleet fight, making it WAY easier for alliances to entrench and hold space.

it took me 10 seconds to shoot holes in the idea of a delay cyno (the big hole of making sov warfare suck more than it does now to the benefit of old, big fatcat alliances). How many holes do you think thousands of other players could shoot through it?

How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#49 - 2013-06-20 17:23:37 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
If ur in null ratting in faction bs and afk cloaker is there u have no choice but to downgrade ur ship severely right? Get a cheaper ship with more focus on escape? Im a complete newb so i shouldnt even be here commenting but that does seem pretty drastic system wide effect with no ability to track the cloaker down.

Seems to me some difficult to accomplish scanning method would be appropriate so that retaliation would be possible. Everything is risk/reward what risk is the afk cloaker taking? If it took 2 hrs to track the cloaker down that would ne good option so that the cloaker and threatened players have active interaction.

So it wouldnt be about changing cloaking so much as giving players the ability to hunt the cloaker down like submarine and destroyers. Cat and mouse. If the cloaker goes afk he gets caught


The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.

AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible intel provided by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.

Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#50 - 2013-06-20 17:25:17 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

see the post directly below this one. in a big fleet fight all a defending FC would have to do is bubble the hell out of the cyno and area around it. a delayed cynoing fleet would get SLAUGHTERED by bombers and sniper doctrine fleets.

Come on guys, thinking ain't hard lol.


Ok, so this is becoming a chain of problem/solutions, but I'll keep it going because I'm curious.

What are the current advantages to having a cyno show up on an overview with the ability to warp to it? The immediate "simple solution" to the above problem would be to remove cynos from that status, or make the cyno not show up until it is fully open.

Profit favors the prepared
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#51 - 2013-06-20 17:33:47 UTC
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-06-20 17:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciyrine
Kijo Rikki wrote:


The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.

AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible inded by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.

Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place.


Sounds reasonable to me. Although it would be a fun addition to the game if hunting cloaked ships was like hunting subs :)
Kijo Rikki
Killboard Padding Services
#53 - 2013-06-20 17:43:39 UTC
Ciyrine wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:


The point is that you really shouldn't feel free to be ratting in 0.0 in a faction fit battleship or carrier to begin with. You just do because local chat intel tells you the moment someone not blue to you and your alliance enters the system and you can warp to a safe point, dock up or cloak. It's a 100% safe way to care bear in what is supposed to be the harshest regions of space, but ironically it's often safer to do your pve deep in alliance nulsec pockets than it is to run missions in hi-sec.

AFK cloaking was a player made solution to the problem of infallible inded by local, and CCP has not had a problem with it ever since I joined the game in 08, if not much longer.

Of course, this means it might not be safe for you to rat in your faction fitted bs, but there is your risk versus reward. Honestly, I rat just fine in pvp fit ships, I don't make as much isk/hr as others but I havent lost a ratting ship since I was a noob. The problem is one and the same faced by hi-sec miners and suicide gankers. See, I and others like me have a problem with players loudly complaining that the game doesn't let them maximize their profit for no risk, instead of (in the case of hi-sec miners) sacrificing yield capability for enough tank to survive a gank long enough for CONCORD to arrive, or shipping down to a ship that gives options for dealing with possible threats from active and cloaked ships, or simply making yourself less of a target by not flying horribly expensive ships in the first place.


Sounds reasonable to me. Although it would be a fun addition to the game if hunting cloaked ships was like hunting subs :)


I advocated the very idea once upon a time. :)

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#54 - 2013-06-20 17:46:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Infinity Ziona wrote:

How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.



And that breaks the fleet game in the opposite direction ie too much advantage to the attacker. The reason cynos show up as warpable beacons is so that the defender has a chance to deal with it before (or at least during) enemy transit.

But those are details, look at the big picture, all of this talk of chaining cynos, changing local etc, for what exactly, because some dude comes in, cloaks in a system and people are to timid to adapt?

That's why I adapted rather than hang my hopes on the idea that the game makers will make the situation perfect for me. At some point you have to understand that in an imperfect system sometimes things exist the way they do for a reason, and changing that should not be taken lightly because it could open up a pandora's box of unintended consequences.

Off the top of my head, for no local to work (but retaining the general ease of access to null which is a feature of "K" space) you'd need for "warping" to be slowed down (or a delay in being able to activate mods once you land...which again favors the defender/target too much imo), you'd need changes to how scanning and cloaks work, you'd have to figure out what to do with cynos and maybe consider a change to how null sec pve activites work (like having to scan down all pve sites except belts, easily warpable anomalies work because of local).

That's a lot of stuff to change and balance, and again, for what, because of cloaky campers that I personally learned to deal with 5 years ago lol.

I simply think there are more that enough tools to deal with the threat and i do so nightly in Catch (lol CATCH me if you can). The problem is that people aren't satisfied with the tools (that they don't use....). To me that's a personal problem.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#55 - 2013-06-20 17:55:37 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

see the post directly below this one. in a big fleet fight all a defending FC would have to do is bubble the hell out of the cyno and area around it. a delayed cynoing fleet would get SLAUGHTERED by bombers and sniper doctrine fleets.

Come on guys, thinking ain't hard lol.


Ok, so this is becoming a chain of problem/solutions, but I'll keep it going because I'm curious.

What are the current advantages to having a cyno show up on an overview with the ability to warp to it? The immediate "simple solution" to the above problem would be to remove cynos from that status, or make the cyno not show up until it is fully open.


Oh hell no lol.

You're right, it is a chain of problems and solutions, because these are not isolated game features, EVE is a game and a game system so to speak.

This is why (for example) incursions were great and a smooth roll out (because incursions, like wormholes were designed with smart npcs in mind) while the roll of out the new NPC AI for existing missions and complexes was....less smooth (lol).

No local is great for wormholes, adds to the "lost in space" feel, but it works because of no gates and no cynos and having to scan down exits/entrances and because of generally low populations.

Same things with cynos, the current cyno mechanics does at least let people sometimes fight where a fight might not have happened (ie if a fleet could only enter via a gate that the enemy has camped, lots of fights would never have happened because a good FC won't jump a fleet into a same size or bigger gate campe).



etc etc etc. The main problem i have here is that their is no serious pressing need to totally upend EVERYTHING that EVE is and that works at least reasonably well because some dude in a cloak ship camped a ratting system somewhere lol. EVE already has tools for dealing with it (if only defensively, but that's all you really need).
Galaxy Chicken
Galaxy Farm Carebear Repurposing
#56 - 2013-06-20 17:57:31 UTC
Hmmm, sounds emergent... I LIKE IT!
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#57 - 2013-06-20 17:57:43 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
I set up my corporation a while ago to encourage people to AFK cloak in popular PvE null systems but unfortunately had to leave EvE for a while. Now Im back and having been inspired by recent complaints regarding cloaking have decided to take up that honorable cause once more.

I'm offering newbies 50 million per week to train a basic cloaking alt and then will assign them a system in null to afk cloak in when theyre not online.

I am calling for all those successful players who recognize the value of such a cause to sponsor their own newbie to do likewise. Recruit a newbie, assign him or her a system and send that brave pilot 50 mill. You will help EvE, cause tears and rage and be comforted in the knowledge thatfor a mere 50 mill you too are contributing to the creation of these wonderfully amusing threads.

What do you think of this idea?


My pants just got shorter because I hated it.

+1, continue doing the lords work.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#58 - 2013-06-20 18:01:46 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.



And that breaks the fleet game in the opposite direction ie too much advantage to the attacker. The reason cynos show up as warpable beacons is so that the defender has a chance to deal with it before (or at least during) enemy transit.


And fleet belonging to the guy sitting cloaked 4000m off the target *doesn't* have "too much advantage"?

Set the whole AFK issue aside. How do you *expect* people to respond when someone is in system cloaked?

Profit favors the prepared
Ciyrine
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-06-20 18:02:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
[quote=Infinity Ziona]

I simply think there are more that enough tools to deal with the threat and i do so nightly in Catch (lol CATCH me if you can). The problem is that people aren't satisfied with the tools (that they don't use....). To me that's a personal problem.


What are the tools to deal with afk cloakers? I thoight it was downgrade ur ship and fly a more escapey ship
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#60 - 2013-06-20 18:10:28 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

How do they warp to the cyno if its non-interactable while its in delayed mode? My point is a solution is not likely to be simplistic like "a delayed cyno". Im a computer programmer and as a computer programmer I realise any complex system that is tightly coupled needs a complex solution that is properly brainstormed and tested.



And that breaks the fleet game in the opposite direction ie too much advantage to the attacker. The reason cynos show up as warpable beacons is so that the defender has a chance to deal with it before (or at least during) enemy transit.


And fleet belonging to the guy sitting cloaked 4000m off the target *doesn't* have "too much advantage"?

Set the whole AFK issue aside. How do you *expect* people to respond when someone is in system cloaked?


There are lots of ways to respond.

Rat/PVE in cheap ships and let them waste time and isk on killing you (calculate it as a cost of doin null business).

Rat/PVE in pvp fit ships and go down fighting like a boss.

Rat/PVE in a ship designed (by ccp or fitted by you) to escape ie FoF missile warp core stabbed ravens or drone boats or (if you have an alt/friend with a carrier, use a venture with fighter's assigned, the cloakys HATE that lol).

Dual/Triple Box RR ratting ships and make the "invader" pay a higher price for killing you.

PVE in a fleet, bait (or ignore) the cloaky, kill him if he decloaks.

Fit Cloak and MWD to ratting ship (or use carrier to jump out) and kill npcs elsewhere which keeps your isk flowing while making cloak boy was his sub time sitting around doing soothing...or get him to follow you and kill him on the next gate lol.

Those are just the things I've done alone and in concert with other people, not just for cloakys, but in general to protect myself in null because i don't assume safety even though some people swear null is safer than high lol.