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SMARTER T3 Rebalances, Please!

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Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#101 - 2013-06-20 17:34:19 UTC
Baren wrote:
I really hope they dont nerf the EHP... I mean for a ship that costs over 1billion isk with fit, requires all those skills and has risk when flown.... a nerf to EHP would really make it like a even tastier target... and would be less attractive to fly

Making them more squishy by lowering the EHP is the Dumbest Idea ever.


Actually lowering EHP might be a good place to start with at least 2 of them: Legion and Proteus.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#102 - 2013-06-20 17:35:04 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
This, and people who have too much ISK to dump everywhere saying that "cost is not a balancing factor"...


Agreed... cost is not a balancing factor? Really?
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-06-20 17:45:33 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
Soldarius wrote:


A Legion fit with T2 trimark armor pumps can exceed 333kEHP, sigRad of only 99.5 meters, and still put out 400dps with HAMs. Or you can drop a 1600m plate and fit lasers for better damage projection but much less tank (only 218k EHP). Oh, did I mention it still has 3 spare midslots after a prop mod for EWAR, cap booster, whatever?


Yes that is true...

If you have links and your head is plugged in with 3 - 4 Billion isk worth of Implants.

And a Double Plated HAM legion can get over 600dps.


It amazes me that people are using extreme cases where people are blinging their ships into cap cost territory to use as examples for nerfs. It's ridiculous.

yet it's what people are saying when they also imply that since the T3 hulls cost that much then they should be better than T2's.


hey, if cost was a balancing factor.. ah **** it I'll just quote myself here:

Grimpak wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

Cost IS a balancing factor. Deal with it.

then I expect my multi-trillion fully officer fitted rifter to kill at the very least 2 titans by itself by just sneezing at them.


since cost is a balancing factor and all that.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-06-20 17:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Quote:
hey, if cost was a balancing factor.. ah **** it I'll just quote myself here:

Grimpak wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

Cost IS a balancing factor. Deal with it.

then I expect my multi-trillion fully officer fitted rifter to kill at the very least 2 titans by itself by just sneezing at them.


since cost is a balancing factor and all that.


A Rifted does not need much money invested in it to perform well for what it is. The comparison is invalid.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2013-06-20 17:56:28 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Quote:
hey, if cost was a balancing factor.. ah **** it I'll just quote myself here:

Grimpak wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

Cost IS a balancing factor. Deal with it.

then I expect my multi-trillion fully officer fitted rifter to kill at the very least 2 titans by itself by just sneezing at them.


since cost is a balancing factor and all that.


A Rifted does not need much money invested in it to perform well for what it is. The comparison is invalid.

yes, but "cost is a balance factor" ergo "multi-trillion *anything* kills multi-billion *anything*", or so people are touting.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-06-20 18:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
I mean that cost is a balancing factor, with limits. Some ships naturally are more costly, whether it is seed rates in WH or DED complexes, or mineral costs. I never said cost is the ULTIMATE balancing factor. If cost was not a balancing factor, everyone would be flying DED Machariels or full officer fit Aeons or completely faction fit Dramiels...
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#107 - 2013-06-20 18:28:29 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Baren wrote:
I really hope they dont nerf the EHP... I mean for a ship that costs over 1billion isk with fit, requires all those skills and has risk when flown.... a nerf to EHP would really make it like a even tastier target... and would be less attractive to fly

Making them more squishy by lowering the EHP is the Dumbest Idea ever.


Actually lowering EHP might be a good place to start with at least 2 of them: Legion and Proteus.


If you lower the EHP on the Legion and don't give it more DPS it'll remove what little value the Legion has over the other T3s.

Every day I'm wafflin!
Laserak
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-06-20 18:30:39 UTC
Buff my legion please, fitted with an adequate tank it has the dps of a Caracal Cry
Bolow Santosi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-06-20 18:33:28 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
This, and people who have too much ISK to dump everywhere saying that "cost is not a balancing factor"...


Agreed... cost is not a balancing factor? Really?


If cost was a balancing factor Marauders would be half the cost of faction battleships.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-06-20 18:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
I mean that cost is a balancing factor, with limits. Some ships naturally are more costly, whether it is seed rates in WH or DED complexes, or mineral costs. I never said cost is the ULTIMATE balancing factor. If cost was not a balancing factor, everyone would be flying DED Machariels or full officer fit Aeons or completely faction fit Dramiels...

no no no, you're looking at it in a wrong way. Cost is not a factor, it's a consequence. Availability is a balancing factor, of wich when you add market economics, cost shows up as a consequence of the high demand versus low availability.


taking RL into comparision, you could compare this to copper. a century ago there wasn't a quite high demand on it, but with evolution of metallurgics and electronics, copper started to rise in demand quite sharply, while maintaining a certain limit on supply, thus the cost of it went up the roof.



replace the word "century", "copper", "metallurgics" "electronics" with "year", your FOTM ship, and "changes" and balance" respectively, and you'll have the same example to EVE.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#111 - 2013-06-20 18:50:46 UTC
Toriessian wrote:


If you lower the EHP on the Legion and don't give it more DPS it'll remove what little value the Legion has over the other T3s.


Good news, the other t3s are also going to be nerfed.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-06-20 19:11:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Toriessian wrote:


If you lower the EHP on the Legion and don't give it more DPS it'll remove what little value the Legion has over the other T3s.


Good news, the other t3s are also going to be nerfed.

Then that would ruin the value of getting ANY T3...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-06-20 19:14:56 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Toriessian wrote:


If you lower the EHP on the Legion and don't give it more DPS it'll remove what little value the Legion has over the other T3s.


Good news, the other t3s are also going to be nerfed.

Then that would ruin the value of getting ANY T3...

Then prices will fall as demand is too low to sustain current costs, ending with T3's approaching prices more suitable to their performance.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-06-20 19:18:57 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Toriessian wrote:


If you lower the EHP on the Legion and don't give it more DPS it'll remove what little value the Legion has over the other T3s.


Good news, the other t3s are also going to be nerfed.

Then that would ruin the value of getting ANY T3...

Then prices will fall as demand is too low to sustain current costs, ending with T3's approaching prices more suitable to their performance.

I don't see how this is beneficial in any way...
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#115 - 2013-06-20 19:20:31 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Toriessian wrote:


If you lower the EHP on the Legion and don't give it more DPS it'll remove what little value the Legion has over the other T3s.


Good news, the other t3s are also going to be nerfed.

Then that would ruin the value of getting ANY T3...

Then prices will fall as demand is too low to sustain current costs, ending with T3's approaching prices more suitable to their performance.


But you would also have to lower the cost to make them. While supply and demand help determine prices, cost to make it also has a factor on price.


Each T3 seems to do a slightly different 'thing' best. Depending on what you are trying to do, pick the T3 of choice. It seems balancing to some people means that all T3s should be fairly equal at all roles. If that is the case, why have different races, weapons, etc.?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2013-06-20 19:23:17 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

I don't see how this is beneficial in any way...


They will be correctly balanced with the other cruisers.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-06-20 19:28:13 UTC
Onomerous wrote:

But you would also have to lower the cost to make them. While supply and demand help determine prices, cost to make it also has a factor on price.


Each T3 seems to do a slightly different 'thing' best. Depending on what you are trying to do, pick the T3 of choice. It seems balancing to some people means that all T3s should be fairly equal at all roles. If that is the case, why have different races, weapons, etc.?

Cost to make them results from demand on the parts to make them, which is driven by demand for the final product. I'm not an expert on the matter but as I recall some components used in T3 manufacture exist only for that purpose. Those materials will have to adjust downwards as people decide T3 aren't worth the price and hulls and subs stop selling, producers stop producing and supplies of raw materials stop being consumed causing oversupply.

T3's aren't and won't be clones of each other as they still have racial lines to follow and will be distict in their respective racial traits. Same with all other ship types.
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#118 - 2013-06-20 19:30:41 UTC
This thread is a real joke. T3 should and must be nerfed a bit. Remove 25% of their EHP and they will still be viable in pvp and even sometime, still overpowered VS t2.

And stop whining about the cost.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-06-20 19:38:05 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Each T3 seems to do a slightly different 'thing' best. Depending on what you are trying to do, pick the T3 of choice. It seems balancing to some people means that all T3s should be fairly equal at all roles. If that is the case, why have different races, weapons, etc.?

and thus we arrived to the crux of the problem: how to make T3's useable and attractive while maintaining them balanced vs other ships, keeping the (apparent) flexibility of T3's, while maintaining them exotic enough between themselves and all the other ship classes.
Caveat:

  • they are, in the end, cruisers and thus should be balanced around that paradigm.
  • no, cost is not a damn balance factor.
  • yes, they are an important (the main) factor on the wormhole economy viability, so better not screw this up.


altho hard, considering the fact that T2's are next, and then only CCP will touch T3's, there will be some time to fix them. perhaps next year's summer expansion only, altho I wish they would be fixed together with the entire T2 cruiser class, as to keep things a bit more coherent.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#120 - 2013-06-20 19:47:23 UTC
bloodknight2 wrote:
This thread is a real joke. T3 should and must be nerfed a bit. Remove 25% of their EHP and they will still be viable in pvp and even sometime, still overpowered VS t2.

And stop whining about the cost.


lol... just lol